I thought this editorial summed up some of the problems with Taiwan’s education system nicely. Admittedly, it barely touches the surface, but is a good introduction for novice teachers, and food for thought for the old farts.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2003/01/04/189729
Cheers,
Tomas
Yes Tomas,
Food for thought. I’m appalled by the professors and teachers I’ve met; very little passion and knowledge about their subjects, and the idea of original research is an alien concept.
As for the students, they are trained to answer multiple choice questions, and thus very good at RECOGNIZING answers. Coming up with an answer on their own is another matter.
Confucian “face” bullshit doesn’t help either. Just the other day I was aking my boss why our textbook is so crap. “Wasn’t it proofread?” I asked.
“Yes, it was, but no one wanted her [the boss of another branch] to lose face.”
[quote=“almas john”]Yes Tomas,
Food for thought. I’m appalled by the professors and teachers I’ve met; very little passion and knowledge about their subjects, and the idea of original research is an alien concept. [/quote]
You have to remember that most of the teachers are concerned about one thing, getting students to pass exams. In order to do this, they often moonlight at buxibans. That means they’re overworked and don’t have the time to research their students learning. Supposedly, most of the real study goes on in these buxibans (i didn’t say ‘learning’), not at school. So whose fault is this? I would say it’s the parents’ and the system’s fault, not necessarily the teachers. A lot of them have had good intentions squelched by the powers-that-be. On my MSc course, there’s a High School English teacher who declares she can’t even initiate an inkling of change into her classes in order to test out a new methodology, approach or theory due to the kind of backlash she’d get. First, the students would be upset about the disruption of their regular practice, they would report this to their parents, who’d in turn complain to the school. By an inkling of change, I mean, ten minutes of ‘Englsih only’ communicative practice in her English classes. Why? Because she wouldn’t be helping them learn the material to pass the exams and would be wasting their time!
This is how most of the exams are organised, all the way up to college entrance and beyond, so it’s no wonder.
[quote]
Confucian “face” bullshit doesn’t help either. Just the other day I was aking my boss why our textbook is so crap. “Wasn’t it proofread?” I asked.
“Yes, it was, but no one wanted her [the boss of another branch] to lose face.”[/quote]
This society feeds off of guanxi. It is all-encompassing . Sometimes ‘face’ is merely a form of guanxi manuevering.
According to the article, and experience,this deficit in the education is a societal trait that everyone is aware of and noone is happy with. But the problem is, how can one recondition the society to appreciate and recognize innovation, creativity, and original thought. IMO, it won’t happen. At least anytime soon. So, the best that teachers and others in education can do is to make small changes in their own ways of doing things and hope they get away with it. If they can, they will do a great service to their students (and possibly the system). If not, then they will go back to square one. It’s a vicious circle that’s never ending.
–students-teachers-admin-system-parents-students-teachers-admin-system-parents–etc.
It’s hard to estimate the root cause, so I wouldn’t say it was the teachers alone. They’re more like the scapegoats.
I agree with Alien. I think the Ministry of Education is at fault for simply being incompetent and not trying to be seriously innovative in implementing a more effective education policy. The “education reform” program has been going on for several years now, with little to no positive effect. The university entrance system is still basically the same as before, even without the “lian kao.” IMO, the best way to improve this would simply be to do away with the exam and simply base admissions on grades, letters of recommendation, extracurricular activities, a creative essay, and perhaps something like the SAT (although I’m not a fan of that test either).
Unfortunately, changing this system is much easier said than done because of the aforementioned cultural/societal beliefs, as well as the lobby of the buxiban industry which would lose a lot of money. I’m also very frustrated with the education system here, because I see it stifling so many young people, including my friends and the kids I teach (when I’m not in class, going through the same thing to try to get into graduate school here). Will it change in the near future? Probably not. Everyone recognizes the problems of the education system, everyone wants something better, but the “powers-that-be” are ignorant, incompetent, and unqualified for the jobs they are doing. The basic education philosophies in Chinese society have been in place for well over 2,000 years, and as we all know, things do not progress quickly here. So, don’t expect too much. However, this isn’t just a problem in Taiwan … it’s a problem in places like Korea and Japan as well where the vile stench of Confucianism still lingers.
I also don’t think you can blame the teachers. I think for the most part they do the best they can to prepare the students for the system, teaching them how to succeed in the system. The teachers can’t change the system no matter how hard they try, so they’d might as well work within it (regardless of how bad it is) to get the best results for their students.
Anywho, just my $.02.
[quote=“Alien”]
You have to remember that most of the teachers are concerned about one thing, getting students to pass exams. In order to do this, they often moonlight at buxibans. [/quote]
This is half the problem. Not only are the teachers worried about getting them to pass, so are the students and the parents. Exams are everything in Taiwan. But I can tell you they could kick my butt at any exam, they know how to take tests!
I read an article a few weeks ago I wish I could find, many of you probably read it. It was saying how professors in Taiwan are unhappy with student performance. They said students are lazy, unmotivated and too invovled in extracurricular activities and working. My first reaction to this bullshit. The students are not lazy, they’re tired and feel they want to do more than just study. Now I blame it equally on professors and students. I don’t blame the extracurricular activities or work. When I went to college I worked 20-30 hours a week and was still invovled in other activities, if I didn’t I would have gone nuts.
There is another side still. Many teachers in Taiwan are using the method of talking to show they know something, while the students sit in class nine hours or more a day and listen. There is absolutely no chance for interaction with the teacher. Nor is there the opportunity to challenge something they say. Heaven forbid their teacher lose face. This is still a big issue. If you say you don’t know something you lose face. I think in the education system there cannot be the issue of face. Getting the correct information out is the most important thing, because when you get out into society and start working you cannot make up answers simply because you don’t know. But this is the problem, I cannot count how many times I have run into this situation. For example, if were to call several departments of a company to get the same information, I would be given as many answers as I made calls. There is no consistency. The students need to be given an environment that they can express there opinions, right or wrong, and have a chance for interaction with other students and teachers. This is 90% of the problem with learning English. Students can write and listen pretty well, but when it comes to speaking they can’t do it!
Some good news, however, is that this situation is indeed changing! Many teachers have learned, probably though watching foreigners in Taiwan teach, how to allow a more open and interactive classroom. Some of my previous students have become teachers and they have said it took some time to get the students to warm up to the idea, but now they love it and can learn in a more effective way. And not only for teaching English, all other subjects as well. This is definitely a turn in the right direction and I see more and more local teachers adopting other methods of teaching. Unfortunately they are still constrained by the system in which they work. Too much time is needed to prepare the students for these exams that I feel are pretty worthless, a test is only part of a good evaluation of how a student learns and retains information. There is a need for more interation and less testing and I think most teachers and students alike would agree!
Let’s talk about university students in particular. Ask yourself–how many classes did you take per semester? Four? Five? Well, the Taiwanese usually take ten–each for two hours a week. Madness, you say? Yep. And worse yet, most of the ten are required courses.
Did you find university to be a time of intellectual exploration, exciting because you could study anything you wanted? Well, Taiwan universities are more like high school. Some schools offer languages like French, Spanish, Japanese–but only for two hours a week, whereas two hours a DAY would be more reasonable. (Well, do they want to learn it or not?) And there’s little sentiment that students who work at a higher level should be let in a more advanced class. Usually they just advance year by year, whether they need this knowledge or not.
Some students are indeed lazy. Others are just overworked with other subjects, or find particular courses frustrating. I will say that there seems to be little of the sheer HUNGER of mainland Chinese students for English fluency, university places overseas, and job prospects. Oh sure, they want these things, but the Chinese are more desperate and will probably out-compete them. Sorry. No idea how this works in scientific or technological fields, though.
The truth is, a lot more Taiwanese students should be living overseas. There’s no way Taiwan can support this many of them in decent jobs in the future, so they need to get used to the idea of leaving the cocoon and scaring something up. A lot of them do go to mainland China, which is understandable, and of course the English-speaking world. (For some reason there’s a prejudice against Australia and New Zealand–maybe the accents?) And I think India would be a great economic fit with Taiwan, if only more of them would show some initiative and start selling stuff back and forth. Anyway, thinking outside the box.
I’ve tried encouraging creativity in my classes, and you know what? It hasn’t worked. Most of them just don’t get it. Whose fault is this–theirs? Mine? Their parents? The school system’s? Society’s? As Stephen King says in “Thinner”, the pie of guilt is big enough that we can all have a slice.
Oddly enough, there don’t seem to be the “slacker” sort of student like in American movies, where they just drink and party in college. They do have a lot of extracurricular activities, which seem to be semi-required. Like singing contests, athletic day, school plays, etc. Again, it’s more like grade school than university. I haven’t decided whether Taiwanese mature more slowly than Westerners. Certainly a lot of the boys (that’s what they call themselves) are living examples of why military conscription is necessary and good. And the girls…well, they vary a lot but I’d be more confident in their collective future if there were a little less giggling and a little more feminism.
I fully agree that the universities themselves aren’t in the habit of naming what their goals are. Is the purpose job preparation–and if so, with what specific skills? Or is there more of a liberal-arts idea of a well-rounded education? If so, that’s not what’s happening. (Maybe in the Catholic schools, I don’t know…)
Sometimes I wonder what the hell I’m doing here, what purpose am I serving?
Jeez, and I thought I had it bad!
I’ve been working in a private high school, where ‘English Conversation’ is part of the curriculum 3-5 hrs a week - that’s on top of the English lessons given by the Chinese staff.
There was a fair amount of grumbling among the foreign staff about what was expected of us. We were being asked to spend far too much time on paperwork, tests, and other admin bullshit. We argued that written tests, even homework, were inappropriate for a conversation class. We argued that the kids were overworked, and that trying to force them to talk was not going to work. We argued that having them parrot story books for 8-yr olds was pretty pointless.
Really this was just a way of blowing off steam after a tough class with a bunch of overworked teenagers who were being compelled to ‘waste’ time doing something they were scared to do and for which they probably would have no use in future. But the issues were valid, and they were also listened to! In fact we were virtually given a free hand to conduct our classes as we thought appropriate.
Sure, we had to pay lip service to the accepted way of doing things, but otherwise the school was remarkably open to new ideas:
The brief was simply to get the kids to open their mouths and use their english, and the rest was really up to the teacher.
It seems to have been a successful policy and, although I agree that by and large the Taiwanese system turns out dull obedient clones, I was gratified that students of relatively low ability were still able to demonstrate some individuality - in a foreign language!
Once they understood that the normal rules were suspended when they were speaking English they sought to express things that are normally left unsaid: disatisfaction with school, certain teachers, career plans, parents, the whole society, followed by all sorts of positive stuff - secret dreams and vices, ‘what I would do if…’, ‘this is my fantasy island…’, speculations about travel, girl/boyfriends, alternative careers, etc. To do this they had to look in their dictionaries or ask teacher (or each other)
I guess I’m pretty lucky to have been in a school which had a ‘hands-off’ approach to achieving a simple, realistic goal, and I hope that it continues to be successful.
Of course, ‘succesful’ is not an objective term. If it continues this policy will produce hundreds of students every year who have the vocabulary and confidence to challenge accepted wisdom. There seems to already be something of a gap between the young and old of Taiwan, and I expect that the authority figures are not over keen to encourage anything that will accelerate the process. The free exchange of ideas with people who have a more exciting lifestyle is bound to cause strife eventually, and from the point of view of the old guard I’m not surprised that they’re in no hurry to change anything.
Finally, it’s odd that PRChina is allowing so many foreigners to come in and feed the (much greater) hunger of it’s own people for things western.
If you click on the picture of Britney Spears, you may learn more about sub-atomic particles than you ever did from a Taiwanese physics teacher - or any physics teacher, for that matter. If you are not interested in nuclear physics, don’t like Britney Spears or lack a sense of humour :?, just skip it.
Quarks explained, by Britney
I mean, would you rather learn your physics from Britney Spears or Li Yuanzhe?
Oh, I have it good. Whether the students have it good, depends on how one defines goodness. I suspect not. Come to think of it I guess that would apply to me too. (Moolah or harmony with the final cause?)
Textbooks are a problem. My school chose theirs for lofty reasons having to do with pedagogy and financial kickbacks. (I’m sure this practice is unknown elsewhere.) My own inclination would be to have no book for spoken English, and a bunch of books that they could choose among for reading class. But, no, everything’s got to be standardized, mass-produced, and assigned a two-digit grade which appears extremely precise but is to a large extent arbitrary.
I’ll keep juggling, but no matter what I do, this class will always be just one out of ten. I can’t make all that much of a difference.
I’m now a student in a certain fairly well-known master’s program in a specific discipline here in Taiwan. The problem is no one is willing to take responsibility for anything. First we’re told, for example, that the director has the final word on everything, but when we go to the director and inform him, for example, that a certain instructor (and I use the word VERY loosely) has literally done nothing all semester, has forced the students to teach the entire class, not even adding any relevant comments, and furthermore cannot answer questions asked of him/her, we are told simply that this person is “full-time” and thus beyond reproach or correction. “Well, the semester is nearly over” we were told. So it’s OK if this person continues to do this next semester and the next and the next?
In another case, the teacher involved is a part-time teacher. In this case, we were given the go-ahead to “impeach” – although of course no one knows how this will ultimately affect the students in terms of grades. But really – a teacher (this is another one!) who is a well-known, highly-placed person in his field in Taiwan, who takes on a class and then protests that he doesn’t have time and can’t even provide a model of 10 sentences for students – this to me is going far, far beyond the line. Yet the school will not act for us; it is left up to the students, because (I believe) the school figures the students won’t do anything. Well, they’ve got a rogue American and another girl who looks Taiwanese but lived in Canada for far too long to put up with this kind of stuff, so they might just see something…
When I was teaching English, I had no problem teaching precisely what and how I wished, but then I was teaching at a medical college, and English was regarded as a required course but not one to pay a great deal of attention to. Three years later, when students had to write an entire pathology report in English, heads were being scratched about why they had problems, or why they couldn’t read the English textbooks for microbiology, etc., but so far as I know no one ever made the connection between setting up a structure that allowed us to teach them something and having them be able to use the language.
Grr. Glad I’m not teaching at the moment!! 
It seems that the government knows about the problems. Just look at Academia Sinica. I was looking at archaeology at TaiDa and they only have ONE professor qualified to teach that subject. And that’s at the best uni on Taiwan. But over at Academia Sinica there are 15 Ph.D’s in archaeology!
Having all the research come out of one place hurts the universities in my opinion. They don’t have to advance any field of knowledge. I’m wondering how people can do research for a Ph.D at a place that doesn’t value original research?
And what does that say about the professors? They would never produce anything that could be challenged. No wonder a lot of people want to go overseas to attend grad school.
Or are my perceptions wrong?
You can call me whatever you like, but I’m happy as hell when I read stuff like this. I see it as protecting my vested interests. I’ve seen enough covers about the growing might of Asia and how great they do on tests. Honestly though I say, “F%&^ them.”
They can’t think for themselves. They have far too many entrenched interests and a level of corruption that is stupifying. Asia will change when it wants to change. I haven’t seen a lot of change either. It seems more like painting over a wall with 1 inch thick cracks in it. You can fill them with paint and make it look even, but it doesn’t make the wall any better. The countries can change, but see no reason or are afraid to change. You could say it’s the one thing they haven’t lavishly followed about American culture.
Next time when you read something like this, just feel the comfort in your heart knowing that the living standards of your kin back home aren’t going to be influenced negatively by Asia(barring N. Korea) for a long time.
CYA
Okami
PS Anybody smart, capable and not wallowing in wealth emigrates out of Asia.
There is another article related to this topic in today’s Taipei Times:
Education in decline, says report
It seems that at least the Minister of Education and some others do recognise that there is a problem.
Ahem…Pretty much, yep. The big balls award goes to Okami for saying what at least some of us think.
One example of this: Taiwan has built an economy based on exports to America, Europe, the rest of Asia. Have any of you seen the Taiwanese exhibits, or spoken with the sales reps staffing them at an overseas trade show? Talk about not understanding your customer. I can’t help but think that much of it comes from an unwillingness, or an inability, to think in anything but very general terms about one’s customer. To many companies, even larger producers like Amptron and Asus, we’re all waiguoren, and it shows in how they market to and deal with overseas clients. Most of the overseas businessmen I speak to here (in restaurants, bars, etc.), who don’t live here, either look down on, or don’t trust, their Taiwanese suppliers. To expand your business overseas, you have to understand your customer.
T.
At the risk of going off-topic, do you think that the values of innovation, risk-taking, and thinking for oneself only apply to university life, or to learning ENGLISH??
Are you NUTS??
One poster observed that these qualities are needed in the real world, but then went back to talking mostly about how they apply to learning English.
THESE QUALITIES ARE NECESSARY FOR ALL WHO DO NOT WISH TO SPEND THEIR LIVES IN NEAR BRAIN-DEAD, ZOMBYLIKE STATES!!
This whole discussions seems to have focused solely on why it’s important to think for oneself WHILE LEARNING ENGLISH.
Since this is the “Teaching English” forum, perhaps this is understandable.
A society that doesn’t encourage its children to think, to ask questions, and to interact with each other, and with life, is DOOMED!!
Because Chinese society has been like this for 3,000 years, does that mean that it has been dynamic and full of life for 3,000 years?
I’d like to suggest that it has been intellectually paralyzed, crippled, and DEAD for 3,000 years.
Look around you.
How much of the technology, innovation, or original thought that you see arond you originated in Taiwan or China?
WAKE UP, TAIWAN…or die.
[quote=“Tomas”][quote=“Okami”]
They can’t think for themselves. They have far too many entrenched interests and a level of corruption that is stupifying. Asia will change when it wants to change. I haven’t seen a lot of change either.
[/quote]
Ahem…Pretty much, yep. The big balls award goes to Okami for saying what at least some of us think.
One example of this: Taiwan has built an economy based on exports to America, Europe, the rest of Asia. Have any of you seen the Taiwanese exhibits, or spoken with the sales reps staffing them at an overseas trade show? Talk about not understanding your customer. I can’t help but think that much of it comes from an unwillingness, or an inability, to think in anything but very general terms about one’s customer. To many companies, even larger producers like Amptron and Asus, we’re all waiguoren, and it shows in how they market to and deal with overseas clients. Most of the overseas businessmen I speak to here (in restaurants, bars, etc.), who don’t live here, either look down on, or don’t trust, their Taiwanese suppliers. To expand your business overseas, you have to understand your customer.
T.[/quote]
Five years on, and I’d be interested to know how attitudes have changed.
[quote=“Loretta”][quote=“Tomas”][quote=“Okami”]
They can’t think for themselves. They have far too many entrenched interests and a level of corruption that is stupifying. Asia will change when it wants to change. I haven’t seen a lot of change either.
[/quote]
Ahem…Pretty much, yep. The big balls award goes to Okami for saying what at least some of us think.
One example of this: Taiwan has built an economy based on exports to America, Europe, the rest of Asia. Have any of you seen the Taiwanese exhibits, or spoken with the sales reps staffing them at an overseas trade show? Talk about not understanding your customer. I can’t help but think that much of it comes from an unwillingness, or an inability, to think in anything but very general terms about one’s customer. To many companies, even larger producers like Amptron and Asus, we’re all waiguoren, and it shows in how they market to and deal with overseas clients. Most of the overseas businessmen I speak to here (in restaurants, bars, etc.), who don’t live here, either look down on, or don’t trust, their Taiwanese suppliers. To expand your business overseas, you have to understand your customer.
T.[/quote]
Five years on, and I’d be interested to know how attitudes have changed.[/quote]
Since 2003, I’ve seen more of the good, and more of the bad in education, business, and society.
I’ve learned quite a bit about the local education system at both primary and secondary levels through active participation in my older kids’ education (they had already been through eight and ten years of public school, respectively, when I became their dad). My assessment? Public education in Taiwan isn’t half bad. Perhaps my kids have been blessed with good teachers. English education is still screwed up, but overall, I don’t think public education is nearly as bad as it’s made out to be by some people.
Taiwanese companies have gotten better at marketing since then. Unfortunately, there are still many people, a majority I fear, who are unable to view foreigners as normal human beings, as non-outsiders. This is a societal thing, and is the cause of many an irritation for us more sensitive types. I’d happily trade in whatever benefits come from the mystique of being a descendant of hairy barbarians for the chance to be more anonymous when in the public eye.
You live here long enough and you either learn to focus on how much you love all of the good stuff or you go completely nuts.
EFL is bullshit in every other country I’ve taught in. Nature of the beast. If the teachers/admin/students were less stupid/obnoxious/lazy/immoral then the industry would not exist. It
They should teach this on the CELTA.