Acquisition or learning, comprehensible input or correction?

This makes good sense to me. I’d like to hear from Bob or ironlady how recording the class might complement/add to this.[/quote]

Sorry for the late reply, I am only popping in here occasssionally. I think if you do a search under “tape recorder” author bob and find a thread called “how advanced should you be at six months,” or something to that effect, you’ll find my thoughts on the tape recorder thing.

There are people who take to it people who don’t. It is quite a complicated issue of course since what you are doing a lot of the time is trying to create learning material on the fly. Be prepared to crash. I crashed big time last week by simply having myself recorded saying something that I really should have known was wrong.[/quote]

Thanks Bob. I’ve been trying out your general approach with with my students. It’s working ok - better with the newer students. With the longer term students there’s been a small amount of consumer resistance. The recording, however, I’ve been wary of; I plan to dip my toe in by recording some role plays and the subsequent talk.

Looking forward to that webinair ironlady :slight_smile:

[color=#0000FF]Mod’s Note: This post was split from [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/linguistic-barriers-in-chinese-to-learning-english/64776/1 thread.[/url][/color]

There are two issues being discussed at the same time in this thread.

  1. What differences are there between Chinese and English that could potentially cause trouble for learners who are acquiring the one they are not native in? (And, what are the precise nature of these differences – I don’t think we agree on those.)

  2. How serious are these problems in actual classroom practice and in actual real-world communication, and what should be done to overcome those that actually cause serious issues? What can be done to overcome those that cause shortfalls in the learner’s acquisition that may not affect his/her communicative competence or goals in using the language but that the learner might want to perfect anyway? (This gets into goal-based learning and pedagogical design, and shades over into sociolinguistics, error correction and other things.)

I think the main problem with the initial posts is that the solutions were posted as though they were unitary. All the solutions posted by the OP come from one particular paradigm of language teaching. There are others out there as well, some of which are more recent and were conceived to try to overcome the issues of first-language interference.

I have some issues with statements that “there isn’t much grammar in Chinese” or “Chinese grammar is more forgiving than English grammar”. I think these statements are more than usually colored by the individual’s experience in such a case. I don’t know how much experience posters on this thread have with Chinese, but my experience with Chinese does not support many of the ideas about its grammar and pragmatics that have been presented thus far.

If you adopt a paradigm that believes that learners acquire languages by a) learning about the rules, b) memorizing new vocabulary and applying b) within a) to produce output, certainly there will be interference from the native language. Whenever a student has to output something for which there is not yet sufficient rules and vocabulary in the brain, he will have to fall back on what he knows, and typically this is the native language (although for multi-lingual students it could be any previously-acquired language even if not perfectly acquired). So what is perceived as “interference” sometimes is simply “volunteerism” from the better-known language, stepping up to fill in the gaps.

It will come as no surprise to anyone who reads F.com frequently that I don’t hold that particular view of how language is acquired :smiley: so I think about language teaching in a different way. I come from a different theoretical perspective and a different pedagogical framework.

That being said, I have had differences of opinion with the theorists in the CI branch of language teaching (often by e-mail…) in that they believe CI is always the right way to go. I believe that there are factors that can’t be ignored, such as the school culture. If you are forced to teach to a test and don’t have enough time for acquisition to occur, what are you supposed to do? If the kids bomb on a test and you get fired, what do you do, even if you know that you are teaching for long-term acquisition rather than short-term performance on a narrow assessment instrument?

So my belief overall is that I try to offer CI-based tools or techniques that could be incorporated into older methods of teaching so as to provide what benefit will work within that situation. Certainly I believe that the best route is to start off with CI-based instruction and then ease into a higher proportion of traditional literacy training when the time comes (that is, when the language is acquired and it’s just a matter of enlarging the pool of vocabulary) – but I’m realistic enough and have seen enough different educational institutions and learners to know that it simply is not possible for everyone.

I think it makes for an interesting thread to contrast the ways different teaching approaches, theories or methods would handle the same issue in the classroom. It is good to note that the communicative approach is not the only one out there, and that all TESOL would not necessarily handle issues the same way.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
And that’s where I stop agreeing with you. I get the point, I really do, but foreign learners need to learn long-form sentences through drilling and rigorous study, otherwise they’ll never get the grammar right when it is the appropriate time to make long sentences. This is TESOL 101. Teaching “Yes, I do.” is great as long as you’re teaching it like this: “Yes, I do. I like blue crayons a lot.” Later on its far easier to drop the second sentence if you’ve been practicing long-form than it is to pick the long-form up when you’ve been getting away with “Yes, I do.” for years.[/quote]

I think it is interesting to see that behaviourist theories of language learning are still alive and well in Taiwan.

Short answers do, I think, have an important role to play in giving learners the opportunity to identify the finite element (i.e., that which marks the modality or tense) of a sentence and responding appropriately. For example:
Yes, I do.
Yes I did.
Yes I am.
Yes I have.
Yes I will.
Yes I would.
etc. etc.
This is an entirely natural way to respond. Furthermore, this ability to identify the finite element will, I think, help them in many other contexts, too.

As far as longer sentences are concerned, learners will benefit from opportunities to process English in their minds and construct their own utterances (perhaps through writing or communicative activities), rather than simply being drilled in parrot fashion.
:2cents:

I still have only 2 years of experience at cram schools, but I worked at one school where they focused on long answers, and one school where they allowed short answers. The short answer school always spoke Chinese and had lousy English speaking ability, and the long answer school was full of kids that would be offended even if the teacher uttered a word of Chinese. It was a much better environment. Of course correlation doesn’t imply causality, so there may very well be many other factors at play here, but I genuinely believe that one factor was that kids didn’t know how to make long sentences so they just would say “Yes, I do.” and be done with it. Kids at the other school would say “Yes, I do. I really like cats.” Why? “I like them because they’re cute and furry.” But as time went on they picked up the short way to say things as well, just naturally. That’s why I disagree. It could just be that these kids are brilliant, but I’ve had similar results with kids I’ve just tutored. I tutored this 14 year old for a couple years now. He had great comprehension when we started but no confidence in speaking. His answers were always short, but I quickly started making him answer in full sentences. Now our conversations feel truly natural (he doesn’t always use long sentences, but he does when it’s appropriate). And his short answers don’t feel awkward and out of place.

Anyway, it could be a question of teaching styles as well. I get results with this technique and it makes perfect sense to me why this method works and the other one doesn’t.

[quote=“adikarmika”]Yes, I do.
Yes I did.
Yes I am.
Yes I have.
Yes I will.
Yes I would.[/quote]
Wow! It would be great if students always knew which of these was appropriate. It would mean they were distinguishing between past and present, real situations and imaginary ones, verbs and adjectives, nouns and verbs, etc.

If you just let them answer “yes” then you’re relieving them of the necessity to think about language, and letting them just focus on ‘information’.

Try a policy that students have to repeat questions back to you before answering. Ask them something simple:
T: When did you go to Taipei?
S: When I go Taipei? Friday

Now we’ve ascertained that they haven’t acquired certain aspects of the language. If we had simply allowed them to reply with “Friday” we would be none the wiser. We need this feedback to have a better understanding of what the students are capable of before we move on the something more difficult.

You can give them as much CI as you like, but at some point the students have to speak. Otherwise, you will never know if they learned anything or were just pretending to be interested. If you let them answer with ‘the correct answer to the question’ then you let them get away with the least possible effort and very little useful feedback to you. Until they demonstrate to you that they have acquired the fact that “angry” is not a verb, you don’t know whether they can really use the word properly.

When they tell you that they are angry(adj) about their boss, that he angers(v) them every day, that they have no opportunity to express their anger(n), that they have have been in this situation for many years but love perfect tenses, and they’re sorry for speaking so angrily(adv), you will know that they ‘get it’ and you can move on to better things. If you accept a one-word answer, they never use what they know and you never know what they know. So what’s the point of either of you being there?

[quote=“Loretta”][quote=“adikarmika”]Yes, I do.
Yes I did.
Yes I am.
Yes I have.
Yes I will.
Yes I would.[/quote]
Wow! It would be great if students always knew which of these was appropriate. It would mean they were distinguishing between past and present, real situations and imaginary ones, verbs and adjectives, nouns and verbs, etc.

If you just let them answer “yes” then you’re relieving them of the necessity to think about language, and letting them just focus on ‘information’.

Try a policy that students have to repeat questions back to you before answering. Ask them something simple:
T: When did you go to Taipei?
S: When I go Taipei? Friday

Now we’ve ascertained that they haven’t acquired certain aspects of the language. If we had simply allowed them to reply with “Friday” we would be none the wiser. We need this feedback to have a better understanding of what the students are capable of before we move on the something more difficult.

You can give them as much CI as you like, but at some point the students have to speak. Otherwise, you will never know if they learned anything or were just pretending to be interested. If you let them answer with ‘the correct answer to the question’ then you let them get away with the least possible effort and very little useful feedback to you. Until they demonstrate to you that they have acquired the fact that “angry” is not a verb, you don’t know whether they can really use the word properly.

When they tell you that they are angry(adj) about their boss, that he angers(v) them every day, that they have no opportunity to express their anger(n), that they have have been in this situation for many years but love perfect tenses, and they’re sorry for speaking so angrily(adv), you will know that they ‘get it’ and you can move on to better things. If you accept a one-word answer, they never use what they know and you never know what they know. So what’s the point of either of you being there?[/quote]
:bravo: Well said!
By the way, I’ve modified the first post to say “My suggested solution” rather than merely “solution”. Hopefully this helps!

Editing this comment out, apparently I accidentally quoted the original post rather than edited it.
Sorry. I guess I’ll use this accidental double-post to invite people to share their own perceived cultural and linguistic problems that Taiwanese tend to face here. Hope others can contribute to the growth of the list in the first post!

Which is precisely the way in which CI proponents believe acquisition takes place.

[quote]Try a policy that students have to repeat questions back to you before answering. Ask them something simple:
T: When did you go to Taipei?
S: When I go Taipei? Friday[/quote]

This is not a habit I would want to encourage any student to get into. First, it’s a grammar-manipulation exercise. Repeating the question will not indicate comprehension (which is the key to acquisition) – it simply demonstrates that they are able to apply a transformational rule. That may or may not indicate that they have acquired that rule broadly across the language. Lots of students can memorize (and even apply) lots of rules, given enough editing time, but that doesn’t equate to fluency or the ability to use those rules immediately and without thought.

Second, it’s just plain irritating. The only thing I can think of that would be more irritating on a regular basis is the common habit of learners to repeat the question exactly as it was asked.

This feedback doesn’t allow us to know whether or not they’ve acquired that aspect of the language (see above). Requiring an answer in a full sentence comes closer to this - as the student is expressing meaning on his own using (or failing to use) the correct syntax, rather than simply changing a verb form – but it’s still awkward and unnatural from the CI perspective. CI holds that students will output when they’re ready. (Having said that, of course children are children – they need to be encouraged to extend output into longer texts when the time comes. But having taught kids using CI, I’ve experienced the period of time when first one, then more of them, start spontaneously using “…because…” to join two clauses, for example. Speaking isn’t a risk proposition for them because they’ve heard the language enough.

As teachers, we need to assess. But we need to assess the right things at the right time. We need to do frequent formative assessments to inform our daily planning and to know what we have to repeat. But we also have to be realistic about the fact that not every kid will acquire at the same pace when it comes to structure.

This would be a great item for a grammar-centric test. It is probably not very realistic in terms of real-world language use, but it certainly distinguishes between these structures. But while focusing on one word and moving it through the entire spectrum of grammar possibilities is very much like the traditional way of teaching verb conjugations, I don’t think it’s the most efficient way from the long-term acquisitional standpoint. For acquisition, we generally limit the expectation of output to one or two persons at a time, or, say, the singular forms (it’s very natural to talk about I, you, s/he but leave the “we” and “they” for a later time) so that there are sufficient repetitions of those forms to facilitate acquisition. It also makes sense to separate items that are likely to cause confusion. There’s no need, for example, to teach “Yao” and “you” on the same day in a Mandarin class – it puts too much stress on the learner, who needs time to really acquire both forms and can do so more easily if he doesn’t have to expend so much processing power distinguishing between two very similar forms with different meanings.

At the end of a year’s course, if I had planned to impart the difference between the “angry” forms over that period of time, I might take a serious look at whether the student had acquired ALL THREE. But prior to that – I certainly wouldn’t focus on a single word like this through the grammar forms, assess it, conclude that the underlying structural rules had been acquired, and then “move on”.

Traditional teaching thinks in terms of “units” or “chapters”. CI instruction thinks in terms of simultaneous incremental progress on all the structures of the language. At any given point in time, some are only comprehended; others can be output with ease. But you can “teach” grammar points all you like – if the student doesn’t get the input he needs, any accuracy using that grammar point will be short-term only and will be based on the conscious application of the rule, not the unconscious use that is the hallmark of the fluent speaker.

Ironlady,
There are some good studies (which I am sure you have read) about the acquisition benefits of “forced” output. Swain, Lapkin, DeKeyser and more.
The problem with your response is that you are preaching to those who do not want to be converted so next they are going to quote these studies out of context.

I disagree with the idea that there are many different valid approaches. There are a few that are relevant today, and granted they may not be relevant in the future, but they are much better than the haphazard idea sharing we sometimes face.
The behaviorist approach or the long sentence response behavior has been proven (scientfically in studies) to show the results mentioned by other posters but they do not lead to any true acquisition with anylong term benefits. CI on the other hand has been shown to lead to solid acquisition over an extended period of time.
The effects of the pleasure experienced when engaged in CI as opposed to a behaviorist approach should also be taken into account. The problem with long sentence approach mentioned here is simple. The student forms the habit and that remains in place until the habit is broken. They stop going to class or they get another teacher. That means that the acquisition was flawed. If anyone spends enough time looking at all these factors you will understand why we prefer to not use methods like the direct method or audio-lingual or the likes anymore. Sure they have some value, but as an approach opposed to for example CI? Not sure this is really worth debating.

CI is all good and well but Krashen’s idea that “output” (talking) is not practice is utter nonsense. It just depends on how it’s done. “Yes, I do” is not practice, I’ll grant you that much. But drilling patterns and grammar exercises have been shown to work in the past. You show me a study that says “Output is bad for students, or not good enough”, and I’ll show you a classroom full of kids who’ve been drilled to bejeezus and back who know their shit and know it well. Anyway, I know you guys have your methods, and you like to take solace in some facts that your methods get results better than the methods of others, and it may very well be true, but I also know that my method works, and it works well.
Is CI even taught as the popular theory anymore?

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]CI is all good and well but Krashen’s idea that “output” (talking) is not practice is utter nonsense. It just depends on how it’s done. “Yes, I do” is not practice, I’ll grant you that much. But drilling patterns and grammar exercises have been shown to work in the past. You show me a study that says “Output is bad for students, or not good enough”, and I’ll show you a classroom full of kids who’ve been drilled to bejeezus and back who know their shit and know it well. Anyway, I know you guys have your methods, and you like to take solace in some facts that your methods get results better than the methods of others, and it may very well be true, but I also know that my method works, and it works well.
Is CI even taught as the popular theory anymore?[/quote]
The problem is that the moment you leave there is regress.
You are supposed to empower your students to become lifelong learners.

I also specifically mentioned 3 people who have written on the benefit of output. Did you read my post?

As for CI…no it is not taught anymore as a popular theory. In the latest issue of language teaching research (I happened to have a copy on my desk right now as I type) Krashen and his CI ideas are only quoted 5 times. That excludes his research on reading, which is quoted 4 times.
I just glanced, it might be more.

[quote=“heimuoshu”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]CI is all good and well but Krashen’s idea that “output” (talking) is not practice is utter nonsense. It just depends on how it’s done. “Yes, I do” is not practice, I’ll grant you that much. But drilling patterns and grammar exercises have been shown to work in the past. You show me a study that says “Output is bad for students, or not good enough”, and I’ll show you a classroom full of kids who’ve been drilled to bejeezus and back who know their shit and know it well. Anyway, I know you guys have your methods, and you like to take solace in some facts that your methods get results better than the methods of others, and it may very well be true, but I also know that my method works, and it works well.
Is CI even taught as the popular theory anymore?[/quote]
The problem is that the moment you leave there is regress.
You are supposed to empower your students to become lifelong learners.

I also specifically mentioned 3 people who have written on the benefit of output. Did you read my post?

As for CI…no it is not taught anymore as a popular theory. In the latest issue of language teaching research (I happened to have a copy on my desk right now as I type) Krashen and his CI ideas are only quoted 5 times. That excludes his research on reading, which is quoted 4 times.
I just glanced, it might be more.[/quote]
Actually I was responding more to the overall discussion of CI, which I tend to associate most with Krashen’s flawed Input Hypothesis, than what you said specifically. I agree that there is value to output and I also agree that consistency with forced output is important and the student can’t be allowed to regress. This is up to the teacher to oversee, but always it’s up to the student to realize. The idea of CI itself is fine, and it makes sense. Actually, it’s a fairly straight-forward idea, as I understand it.

One thing I seem to recall Krashen saying is that SLA is always passive; the learner has no idea if/when they’ve made any progress, and I find this to be fairly a large load of BS. My student is very conscious of his improvement. A year ago, he couldn’t make a full sentence when he talked to me and he flunked all his school English exams. Since we’ve been working together, however, his average score has become 95 and he is speaking very fluently in the discussion portions of our lessons. Needless to say, I demand a considerable amount of both input and output in our sessions. Without any output, there could’ve been no improvement in his speaking. Perhaps his test scores still might have improved, but his speaking wouldn’t be what it is today because, if nothing else, the output drills gave him the confidence to apply what he was learning.

In my humble opinion, expecting a student to improve their speaking by merely consuming input is akin to expecting someone to learn guitar by watching their teacher play. :2cents:

Your post is a clear indication that you have not read Krashen’s theory in detail and don’t understand it.
The example you gave of your high school student proves nothing more than selective perception.
I wil give you one example and then leave it at that.
A student moves to Canada. They have learnt about “a” and “the” but there is no certainty and they make many errors. They hear it in context all the time in situations that could be and should be considered comprehensible. One day they use it correctly. No-one can pinpoint the moment of acquisition and the student is only aware of the fact that it has been acquired but they have no idea when. This happens all the time to thousands of language learners. Still think Krashen’s theory is flawed?

I understand what was meant by the theory well enough, and in the respect you gave it has some validity. In truth maybe I was constructing a bit of a straw man with my previous post. Whether or not my interpretation of my experience with my student is based on selective perception, the fact remains that our sessions together have been effective and productive. In the end it’s all about results, isn’t it? Now, I don’t at all disagree with the idea of comprehensible input; my main gripe is the idea that output is not useful practice. I am fairly certain that most researchers today agree that output has at least some place in a language learning environment.

I think an important point to note here is that teaching language is a different issue from helping people who have already acquired Chinglish and believe that they’re speaking English. Fixing fossilised errors is not the same as teaching new concepts.

Ironlady says a lot of smart things, and then ruins it by going on about kids, in a post where she’s replying to me. I don’t teach kids, I teach adults with decades of habitual thinking that is holding them back. I said that.

These are people who come to me with the hope of getting a result. More precisely, they want a different result from the one they’ve been getting since their junior high school teachers fucked up any good work that may have been done by buxiban foreigners beforehand. They are there because they want to produce better English than they have done for the last ten, twenty, or more years, but they don’t know what it is they’re doing wrong.

CI may be beneficial for them, but they have to produce. They are there to practise producing. They have jobs to do, customers to meet, and they have come to me to help them speak and write comprehensibly. If they don’t produce in class, then they don’t come back. It’s a speaking class.

None of these people are consciously aware that English is not Chinese. That’s why their English is crap. They produce Chinese words, in English. They give the absolute shortest simplest easiest answer they can get away with, because that’s what they learned to do in high school. They think it’s OK to ignore verb tenses, to confuse verbs with adjectives, not because they don’t know better, but because nobody ever told them straight up that they have to pay attention to this shit. They are the ones who pay just enough attention to get the gist, and make a stab at an answer that gets them one point for being correct.

Taiwanese high school students are very rarely asked to produce complete sentences, and almost never write paragraphs. Some of them might learn this stuff in extra classes, but the ones who end up in my adult classes have never been told the basic assumptions that my English teachers drummed into me as a kid.

I don’t doubt for a minute that they can learn this stuff by osmosis in a CI environment. But how long does it take? Does it take less time than simply pointing out that we use the past tense when talking about the past? Armed with this small but vital piece of information, and constantly reminded of it, they can make real progress in a short time. If they get into the habit of actually paying attention, instead of just looking for the most convenient right answer, then CI might actually work. It may be the best approach, but only if they are actually paying attention.

But repeating the same shit over and over is not useful if they already have the habit of ignoring the grammar, and just focusing on coming up with the one-word answer that will enable them to pass the test. You have to get their attention before they will bother with the ‘comprehension’ part, and pointing out the problems with their belief system is the first step.

Interestingly, some years ago I was very frustrated at the difficulties I was having in getting students to accept that, for instance, memorising vocabulary wasn’t going to help them. Again, I’m talking about adults with entrenched beliefs. Logical argument, authentic examples, even clear unequivocal statements from supposed authorities, nothing seemed to work. I solved it eventually, after recognising that the issue was emotional. People hear what they want to hear, and believe whatever makes them comfortable, and making them accept something new is difficult. Until you obtain an emotional commitment to change, new (to them) techniques are not going to work.

Now if we were having a beer together, I would say “cheers!” First time we might be in agreement. I am not questioning your commitment or your results at all.
In response to Loretta,
The main benefit of “forced” output in a CI environment is that it helps learners notice L2 elements tat could modify their output. Acquiring the accurate use of past tense verbs (which are not always used for past tense - refer to Michael Lewis here) are a lot more effective in CI than in being told so by the teacher though. It does take more time, but it is far more effective and more importantly, it is permanent.

[quote=“ironlady”]
That being said, I have had differences of opinion with the theorists in the CI branch of language teaching (often by e-mail…) in that they believe CI is always the right way to go. I believe that there are factors that can’t be ignored, such as the school culture. If you are forced to teach to a test and don’t have enough time for acquisition to occur, what are you supposed to do? If the kids bomb on a test and you get fired, what do you do, even if you know that you are teaching for long-term acquisition rather than short-term performance on a narrow assessment instrument?

So my belief overall is that I try to offer CI-based tools or techniques that could be incorporated into older methods of teaching so as to provide what benefit will work within that situation. Certainly I believe that the best route is to start off with CI-based instruction and then ease into a higher proportion of traditional literacy training when the time comes (that is, when the language is acquired and it’s just a matter of enlarging the pool of vocabulary) – but I’m realistic enough and have seen enough different educational institutions and learners to know that it simply is not possible for everyone. [/quote]

Thank you for acknowledging this, ironlady. I would dearly love to receive some training in TPRS and let myself go to the input-driven approach, but it’s just not feasible. For example, I have 8 six hour lessons to get a class of students up to band 7 on IELTS in order to fulfil their dreams of studying at post grad level in an English speaking country. If they achieve this goal then they will be spending 1 or 2 years in an English speaking country receiving more rich input than any teacher could ever give them in Taiwan. Their acquired English will go through the roof, IF they manage to succeed in the exam.

It would be fab to spend a few lessons telling them a story about a fish and really sort out their pronouns, but I don’t have the time and they’d probably be straight into the DOS office after one lesson of me trying it. Even though most TEIT threads seem to end up as discussions about CI the point is that for the vast majority of us who are teaching English in Taiwan, TPRS is not an option.

Tom and Loretta are both right about the practicalities of the whole thing. For me, it’s a different situation. I’m the only native speaker in my town and in all likelihood, I’m going to be here long term. I have kids in the fourth and sixth grades this year at my elementary school, plus the seventh, eighth and ninth grades at junior high school. Ideally, I’d like to get the fourth grade students again next year and the year after so they get an unbroken run with me until the end of elementary school. If they end up coming to my junior high school (which, as far as I know, is the closest one within a large radius), I could, theoretically, get these kids for six whole years and I could actually even attain that Holy Grail of English teachers in the government system in Taiwan: ninth grade students who are not burnt out Chinglish machines who have only been exposed to one way of doing things/thinking, and so are highly resistant to anything that doesn’t lead directly to results on a multiple choice cloze test. During their time with me, they’ll have to deal with all of the usual other stuff, including test taking. However, six whole years is a massive amount of time to be exposed to a native speaker, week in, week out, in the classroom, in the corridor, at sports days, in the street near my house, etc. I only wish I could get them when they start English in the third grade.

I am largely left to my own devices in terms of what I teach and how I teach. I have a huge opportunity here and if I can get the right kind of training for this, I think I could actually do awesome things with some of these kids. I am practically chewing the legs off chairs dying to meet ironlady the next time she comes to Taiwan.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but if we could get enough people in my position (both foreigners and locals) to change what they’re doing, we could actually put you guys out of a job because then there’d be few screw ups for you guys to fix. Well, then you guys could teach them Shakespeare or something of the sort.

I understand that you guys are working in the ER section of a hospital. I’m in the nutrionists’ section trying to make sure they don’t have that heart attack.

Well, I’ll be presenting in Taitung in October (hopefully), and at Taiwan ETA.

It’s crucially important (IMO) to realize that there is a divide between Krashen’s theory and actual classroom implementation. You can’t implement what Krashen thinks. It just doesn’t work in a classroom. That’s where it’s useful to look at actual classroom implementations of CI theory, of which TPRS is the most mature and probably has the largest mass of practitioners who are sharing results and action research.

The point is, you can teach pure CI to a highly, highly motivated adult learner with no previous background in the language. But those are rare fish indeed. That adult doesn’t need to be tricked into sitting there and taking in all that Ci. But most students in classrooms – whether children or adults – DO need to be tricked to some degree. By “tricking”, I mean the input needs to be made palatable so as to gain compliance from the learner.

Krashen also does not address (at least not in any classroom-meaningful way, IMO) the issue of fossilized errors and how to undo the damage done by rules-and-output based teaching – not to mention pressure from society at large, who all believe that since they speak, they know how to teach language (I chew every day, but you don’t see me hanging up my shingle as a dentist).

The basic premise of CI teaching is that it just takes time. The thing is, you can’t argue with the human brain and biology. It just takes a certain amount of time for language acquisition to occur (based on hours of input). We can jump-start this with judicious additions of very focused structural awareness, but that’s pretty much like tenderizing your meat – you still have to digest it, though it may be a little easier to swallow in the first place. You can rant, rave, teach grammar, and correct and force output all you want, but there won’t be any long-term acquisitional benefit from all that. The brain is still going to do what it does at its own pace.

Most programs are not set up for mastery learning – it’s definitely “we’re done with that, so if you didn’t get it, come see me after school or study more on your own or go to a cram school…” And most of the programs in Taiwan are aimed at one test or another, which are taken at a certain time in a student’s career. That’s unavoidable.

Once the test on a grammar point is finished, in most programs, it is considered to be “mastered”, regardless of whether it is late-acquired or not (and without consideration to whether or not the language has been acquired). TPRS done right is a mastery method, but one that presents many different grammar points at once (since we do not shelter structure in our input, only vocabulary) and has students acquiring all the structure of the language at once – BUT not at the same pace.

I had a discussion with Stephen Krashen about the ETA conference this year by e-mail. I suggested that I do a session on CI-friendly methods that could be incorporated into everyday “ordinary” teaching in Taiwan. He is adamantly opposed to that idea. He wanted me to demo full-on TPRS (and I wrote the proposal based on what he wanted). He believes that to change things, you have to have a revolution. I kept trying to make him understand my position, that having been in Taiwan for a long time (he has visited, but I imagine he sees what he’s shown, and he doesn’t speak Chinese) I have seen the way most classes are taught, and the way most schools are run, and things are not going to change just because someone says this method produces real acquisition. The stakeholders are not interested in real acquisition - or better stated, they are, but not more than they are interested in test scores. Test scores on discrete-item tests are something everyone can “agree” on, even if they can’t speak any English at all.

There are ways to incorporate CI techniques into a “traditional” classroom (assuming the CT doesn’t go nuts about it – which is another problem). I’ll be talking about those when I present in Taiwan in Oct-Nov. because while I would like teachers to be able to do TPRS and full-on CI instruction, unless those teachers are opening up their own school, or working at a very innovative place, it’s unlikely they would be able to use TPRS in an existing Taiwanese program. That’s just the reality of it. However, the more true acquisition can be insinuated into grammar-heavy test prep classes, the better for the long-term results.

TPRS is an implementation of CI theory. There is certainly output as part of a TPRS program. It is simply not FORCED output. This is mostly in contrast to traditional rules-and-output teaching, where a rule is taught and then students “practice” it – often in pairs.

Comparing language acquisition to almost any other sphere of human learning is inherently flawed. There is no “guitar acquisition device” in the brain. To my knowledge there is no example of an intellectual ability that vast groups of people in every society known develop purely without instruction other than language. Every known society uses oral language (among its physically normal members). Unfortunately, most every school program makes the basic assumption that languages are learned just like anything else (math, science, history). This probably comes from the linkage of language to literacy since the Middle Ages, but it’s hardly a useful model to facilitate universal, practical bilingualism in a society through some sort of exposure to language in school.