Archaic script analysis and translation

[color=red]MOD note: I’ve split this off from the word translation challenge thread so as to segregate contemporary material of broader interest vs. archaic material of interest to less than a handful of posters. – DB [/color]

[color=green]MOD note 2: Normally in the Learning Chinese threads we try to be inclusive of learners who may be at a less advanced level of study. We therefore ask posters to post primarily in English, and to add pinyin with tones (either diacriticals or tone numbers) where practical. The present thread, however, is a discussion at an advanced enough level that we dispense with the pinyin for characters of intermediate difficulty and below. Please do continue to add pinyin for relatively obscure or difficult graphs, however. Thanks! --DB[/color]

This might be tough –
重文 chong2wen2 (hint: this does not mean the variant form of a character)
and
合文 he2wen2 (hint: not a marital aid)
in the context of Shang dynasty through Warring States writing. :smiling_imp:

A marital aid?! Care to elaborate?

[quote=“Dragonbones”]

You know, plastic toys and soft cheese… :howyoudoin:[/quote]
So how does this relate to 合文? I’m obviously not reading the right material. :wink:

Back to more scholarly pursuits:

合文 he2wen2 as it relates to Shang Dynasty through Warring States writing: how about “aggregate writing” as it refers to words on orcale bones which at first glance may seem to be a single character but is in fact multiple characters written closely together.

重文 chong2wen2 – I was going to write “character variant” but apparently, you’ve already indicated that’s not correct in the context of Shang/Warring States writing. So the search continues…

You missed a ‘not’! :smiley:

how about “aggregate writing” as it refers to words on orcale bones which at first glance may seem to be a single character but is in fact multiple characters written closely together.[/quote]

BINGO! Can be bronze graphs, too.

Héwén (合文), lit. “combined graph” is the combination of two characters into one graphic representation which still represents the two spoken words (rather than being a compound character per se). For example, numerical units such as hundred and thousand were, as now, multiplied by adding a numeral above or next to them, e.g. , but could also be depicted in an overlapped fashion as in forming a 合文 héwén, or combined graph. Cool, huh?

As for 重文 chong2wen2, like he2wen2, the meaning is present in these two characters… :wink:

Hmmm…a repeated graph?

Ah, but repeated in what manner? :smiling_imp:

Think English… :wink:

[quote=“Dragonbones”]
Héwén (合文), lit. “combined graph” is the combination of two characters into one graphic representation which still represents the two spoken words (rather than being a compound character per se). For example, numerical units such as hundred and thousand were, as now, multiplied by adding a numeral above or next to them, e.g. , but could also be depicted in an overlapped fashion as in forming a 合文 héwén, or combined graph. Cool, huh?[/quote]
Trivia of the day: How many modern day 合文 can you think of?

OK, I’ll take a guess at this. Two thousand can be written as 二千 or as in 合文 format. The 重文 version of two thousand would be to simply repeat the 千 character, as in “千千”.

Am I warm?

[quote=“sjcma”]OK, I’ll take a guess at this. Two thousand can be written as 二千 or as in 合文 format. The 重文 version of two thousand would be to simply repeat the 千 character, as in “千千”.
Am I warm?[/quote]

Warm! But here’s an example of the context, which IMO would render having a separate term for simple repetition fairly pointless:

編鐘銘一百三十五字(其中重文四,合文一) :wink:

:astonished: None, off the top of my head. Hmm, hang on…

I wouldn’t be surprised if you are thinking of 廿 nian4, 卅 sa4 and 卌 xi4 (modern native speakers treat them as he2wen2, reading them as er4shi2 and so on, unaware of their traditional readings; they don’t IMO strictly fit the definition since they each traditionally had their own pronunciations rather than being read er4shi2 etc., and are not combinations of 2 +10, 3+10 but rather 10+10, 10+10+10 etc.). But they are in modern Chinese treated as he2wen2, and you refer to modern day 合文, so I imagine they do count! :slight_smile: Hmm, they really are a kind of combined graph, aren’t they. Maybe they count for real.

[quote=“Dragonbones”][quote=“sjcma”]OK, I’ll take a guess at this. Two thousand can be written as 二千 or as in 合文 format. The 重文 version of two thousand would be to simply repeat the 千 character, as in “千千”.
Am I warm?[/quote]

Merely warm. Here’s an example of the context, in which simple repetition would render having a separate term for repetition fairly pointless:

編鐘銘一百三十五字(其中重文四,合文一) :wink:[/quote]
Would it be like this character: 卅 (meaning 30)? Repeated full characters inside the space occupied by one character?

That’s pronounced sa4, btw. No, I don’t think so; see my post just now. Chong2wen2 are a very special group. Think “Ghost” with Demi Moore. :slight_smile:

[quote=“Dragonbones”]Ah, but repeated in what manner? :smiling_imp:

Think English… :wink:[/quote]

Repeated as in a typo? Like writing “the the” by accident? I’m grasping here…

Think tear-jerking lines in the movie Ghost.
:smiling_imp:

[quote=“Dragonbones”]Think tear-jerking lines in the movie Ghost.
:smiling_imp:[/quote]
Ditto!!!

It’s like a ditto mark.

[quote=“Chris”][quote=“Dragonbones”]Think tear-jerking lines in the movie Ghost.
:smiling_imp:[/quote]
Ditto!!!

It’s like a ditto mark.[/quote]

Bingo!

重文 chóngwén (“reduplicated graph”) is the immediate repetition of a character, traditionally via a ditto-like mark immediately adjacent to the graph, commonly made in the pre-Qín scripts to the lower right of characters, such that instead of writing the character zĭ ‘child’ (子) twice, one would write .

BTW, this mark, called 重文符 chóngwénfú, is a repeater, not a pluralizer, although in this particular example, the repetition does serve to pluralize. An example where the repetition does not pluralize is when the same character plays two separate roles which happen to be adjacent, such as the object of one sentence and the subject of the next.

Good job lads! And with that, a good night!

[quote=“Dragonbones”]Think tear-jerking lines in the movie Ghost.
:smiling_imp:[/quote]
It would help if I had watched more than just the first 10 minutes of Ghost.

[quote=“Dragonbones”]重文 chóngwén (“reduplicated graph”) is the immediate repetition of a character, traditionally via a ditto-like mark immediately adjacent to the graph, commonly made in the pre-Qín scripts to the lower right of characters, such that instead of writing the character zĭ ‘child’ (子) twice, one would write .
[/quote]

Here’s an actual example from an early Western Zhou dynasty (~1100 B.C.) 鼎 ding3. The reduplicated graph can be seen in the third graph down from the very left column. There’s supposed to be 2 reduplicated graphs here. I guess the other one must be just above the one I mentioned although it’s not very clear.

:astonished: None, off the top of my head. Hmm, hang on…

I wouldn’t be surprised if you are thinking of 廿 nian4, 卅 sa4 and 卌 xi4 (modern native speakers treat them as he2wen2, reading them as er4shi2 and so on, unaware of their traditional readings; they don’t IMO strictly fit the definition since they each traditionally had their own pronunciations rather than being read er4shi2 etc., and are not combinations of 2 +10, 3+10 but rather 10+10, 10+10+10 etc.). But they are in modern Chinese treated as he2wen2, and you refer to modern day 合文, so I imagine they do count! :slight_smile: Hmm, they really are a kind of combined graph, aren’t they. Maybe they count for real.[/quote]
Doesn’t the combined graph have to retain the pronounciation of its individual constituents? That would mean that in order for 卅 to be 合文, it would have to be pronounced shi2shi2shi2, non?

I’ll post what I consider to be some modern day 合文 later on. I’ll leave the Pinyin out so you guys can figure out what the constituent characters are as well as translate them, of course! I have some in mind that are 2 syllables, some 3, and some even 4. If you can find any of your own modern day 合文 in the meantime, by all means post them here.

Doesn’t the combined graph have to retain the pronounciation of its individual constituents? That would mean that in order for 卅 to be 合文, it would have to be pronounced shi2shi2shi2, non?
[/quote]

Yeah, that’s what I meant above when I initially said 廿卅卌 had their own (unitary) pronunciations so they didn’t count; then I got groggy as it was past bedtime. By that criterion, here’s a modern one (I bet you were planning on posting this one!):

As for the above bronze, the graph above the one you mention is clearly 孫 sun1 (same as 子 but with an additional little 8 mark (糸 mi4 ‘silk’, half of the modern 絲 si1 ‘silk’)) hanging from one elbow, and yes, it has the reduplication mark
So this reads sun1 sun1 zi3 zi3 (many descendants).

[quote=“Dragonbones”]By that criterion, here’s a modern one (I bet you were planning on posting this one!):

[/quote]

Ah…you read my mind. :bravo: This character, of course, is the combination of 招財進寶 zhao1cai2jin4bao3, meaning “inviting prosperity” or more colloquially “show me the money!” :smiley:

Any more?

OK, now that you mentioned it, I see it now. Thanks!

Note in the above bronze two instances of 寶 bao3. It still amazes me that after three thousand years, some characters remain essentially unchanged.

Following 招財進寶, we have the following:

I’d like to see a good translation for this.