I guess this makes sense. By saying “Tom, Dick, and Harry”, one is implying “just about anyone”. By writing 寶尊彝, one is implying “just about any bronzeware”.[/quote]
That’s why threads like this are so great – we learn something every day!
really? I don’t think so. The dui4 and gui3 are two different bronze vessel types, not interchangeable names AFAIK.[/quote]
Well, yes and no. From what I’ve read “敦的型態是由鼎和簋相結合演變而成” and “〈周禮〉中簋敦不分, 宋代稱敦為簋, 至清代始有學者將敦單獨分出”. But knowing that 〈周禮〉 is claimed by some scholars to be a fabricated document, perhaps 〈周禮〉 is not to be trusted.[/quote]
“敦的型態是由鼎和簋相結合演變而成” makes some sense – from what I’ve seen, dui4 are essentially rounded, covered descendents of ding3, generally (but not always) with gui3-like handles. I can see how an art historian might retroactively analyze the vessels in these terms. But while the shape similarity between dui and ding are on occasion confusing (implying blurred borders and possibly interchangeability of terms), that’s not true IMO of gui and dui; the platform base of the former and the tripodal nature of the latter are just too distinct. Another way to put it is that the gui-like handles are a minor feature and are only present on some, not all dui.
However, there is another way to analyze the vessels, and that is in terms of function. If gui3 and dui4 are both vessels for cooked grain, for example (vs. meat for ding), and the shape is generally similar (except for the platform foot vs. tripodal feet) and the handles are often the same, I can certainly see where some might consider them synonymous.
In the same paragraph that talked about 敦 and 〈周禮〉 above, I went back and noticed this sentence: 敦產生於春秋中期, 盛行於春秋晚期至戰國後期…". This means that 敦 came into existence during the Eastern Zhou era and did not exist during Western Zhou. Since the bronze script that I posted is from Western Zhou, the character in question could not possibly be 敦 after all. Thus, this graph remains a mystery.[/quote]
You seem to do a better job of accessing textual sources than I do. I imagine you read all-Chinese sources much faster than I do. This is certainly a good point. Assuming you trust the Zhouli. Then again, traditional Chinese sources say paper and the writing brush were invented when? A certain skepticism is in order.
In this case, however, I agree, and am a bit chagrined that I didn’t catch it myself. I’ve spent enough time with bronzes and have never seen a dui4 from before the Eastern Zhou. I really should have caught that one.
Ok, what are our alternative readings for that? :help: