Book writing, co-authoring, illustrations, etc

JD, as for your question about the distributor’s cut of a book, I would have thought you know more about this than I do.
WARNING: what follows is 50% speculation, 25% booze, and 25% bullshit.

It could be as simple as giving the distributer 10-15% of the cover price of every book sold.

Let’s say your book is a weedy little thing that you figure could retail at NT$100. That means that the bookstore will more often than not be selling at NT$90 (most books will be bought by schools that have a discount card). The bookstore will buy the book from the publisher/distributer for NT$60. Let’s say the book cost NT$30 to produce per copy (if done in a large print run). You and the distributer will get about 15% each of the cover price, i.e. about NT$15 per book. Doesn’t sound much, does it?

The key is for the distributor to sell directly to schools. Let’s say they get a 30% discount - that leaves perhaps NT$15 for the distributor and NT$25 for you.

I hope an industry insider can come along and set us straight.

[quote=“cfimages”][quote=“joesax”]

It would be great if there were a decent print-on-demand service here. Lulu’s very good, but by the time books are shipped from the US or Spain to here, they can end up a bit pricey. Not always though. Depends on the format and the number of pages.[/quote]

There are a couple that do photo books, so I guess they’d do other types of books as well. (I think, the sites are in Chinese and my Chinese is terrible).

http://www.ingtouch.com/book/index.php

http://www.hypo.cc/[/quote]Interesting. However, photo books tend to be quite pricey – Lulu’s are anyway. I’m not sure whether a company that specialized in photo books would consider offering much lower prices for printing regular books. Worth asking though.

I wrote a pretty good book (longish essay?) last month. 10,000 words. No pics. How much’d it cost, roughly, to get it put in a simple cover and printed out, say a thousand copies?

I should have been more clear in my post…

I have no intention of writing any books. But I do enjoy tooning and have done it as a hobby since I was a kid.

The worksheets I posted before were just ones that I redesigned for the school. The old ones were terrible. The art was done in the 80s and was apalling.

This was back when I gave a rats arse about the school and wanted to make a good impression. I did 20 of the sheets and it took me a while…

Anyhow, if anyone needs any cartoons done, let me know :slight_smile:

I admit, most of the curriculum I have seen in my short life as a ‘teacher’ has been totally inane. The books we are currently using aren’t too bad, but the beginner english stuff is terrible.

Not really. Most of the books I did for Caves I wrote as an in-house author, so no royalties. The other two I think I get 12% royalties.

But it’s snot a question of royalties or even retailers in my case. I plan on avoiding the retail market and going right from the wholesale distributor to the schools/libraries.

Anyway, I meet with the guy tonight and will shut my mouth and try and get his POV on how things will work.


joesax wrote:

[quote]photo books tend to be quite pricey[/quote]I hope that cf and paogoa and belgian pie can get a photo-book going. Those guys rock!

:slight_smile: That made me think of something else.

The word ‘hay’ apparently appears approximately once in a hundred thousand words. (1108/100,000,000 in British English, but I assume it’s not much different across the pond.)

So, based on ‘usefulness’, wouldn’t it be better to use a word like ‘grass’, which is used almost four times as often as ‘hay’? Or is it a book about the different forms grass can take and their importance in English? Is the book intended to educate young urbanites about the difference between straw, grass, hay, silage, and all the rest of it? Does it include all those cool idioms about grass being greener and what you can do while the sun shines?

Obviously, in this case, I’m just being silly. I know nothing about teaching kids, and not much more about teaching adults, except that kids don’t use a vocabulary that is representative of the whole language. They only talk about things that are interesting for them, and the vocabulary they use is ‘specialised’, for want of a better word.

But the example serves to illustrate a dilemma I have.

If you’re targeting older readers (or listeners) with a book, website, newsletter, podcast, youtube video, or anything else then you have a problem of what kind of language to use. Very few people contemplating an MBA overseas can make sense of CNN or the BBC, even with video to watch. If they’re primed with a simplified version they can understand, and then taught any new vocab they can then usually understand the ‘authentic’ stuff, but they do need to ‘get the sense of it’ first. So authentic native-speaker level material is not much use for them on its own.

In particular, there’s a knowledge gap between what the average young Taiwanese knows about the world and what they are expected to know by potential employers and educational institutions. Getting them to read up in English that will also reinforce their language abilities sounds like a great idea, except that there isn’t any.

So, instead of teaching English, my focus these days is on reading, writing, talking about whatever topics are of interest or useful to my students. I try to either develop their knowledge, or have them share their knowledge with me, through the medium of English. There’s a lot of incidental language-teaching, but most of it is related to how the language works rather than what word means what. It’s an approach that seems to work, but there’s a shortage of suitable material - not many graded readers for adults.

Most of the locally-produced stuff targeted at adults tends to be overly-complex, not very informative, and focused on vocabulary. They get bogged down with the vocabulary, which is all that is explained, and neglect intermediate grammar. I was with a guy last night who was completely foxed by the word “which” appearing in the middle of a sentence, even though we had previously gone through all the detail of the vocabulary. Learning new words isn’t going to help him, he needs to improve his grammar in order to make use of what he knows, which he can do just by reading material of an appropriate nature. But there isn’t any.

My question therefore is, how do you set a standard to work to if you’re producing material in English for the local market that is intended to educate about more than just English? Assuming you can get around the brainwashing so that your customers want your product, what would be a good average level?

I’m thinking that a basic vocabulary of the 2000 or so most common words would be a good place to start, but is that going to be enough? As JD’s example shows, you may need to use uncommon words due to the specialised nature of your audience. For academic purposes you could add the 560(?) words in the academic word list too, but they’re not as useful for more general audiences.

Would it be appropriate to try and keep your grammar simpler than normal? No perfect tenses, for instance? My instinct says no, but I don’t know much.

Limit your sentence length wherever possible? (I did some work a few years back for one of the educational magazines which had some pretty bizarre rules, one of which was that sentences had to be of a certain minimum length for each level of English.)

What think you all?

Loretta - I’m definitely no expert, but I find that my classes go really well when I tailor the curriculum towards stuff that they are interested in.

Pokemon, bug fighting(!), manga… Stuff like that. I still teach the grammar that we are supposed to for that lesson, but I change the content of the lesson from the boring british based situations to something more ‘cool’ for the kids.

It really holds their interest, which I find is half the battle trying to teach English here…

Most of the editors I worked with here have been Taiwanese. You would not believe how much we fought over the use of words like “cheetah” and “centipede.” Why were they bad choices? Because the kids didn’t know them. :unamused:

I like using cool sounding words, instead of falling back on the ubiquitous words, animals in particular, like “lion” and “tiger.” No gd lions in my books! :raspberry:

Oh, and [quote]That horse is hungry. Horses eat hay![/quote]
That is called alliteration my fair haired friend. It makes reading more funner.

:laughing:

That is called alliteration my fair haired friend. It makes reading more funner.[/quote]

But you’re a murkin. You don’t even pronounce the haitch.

Face it, once they get to junior high your kids are going to forget most of what you teach them anyway. Might as well have some fun until then. Any nematodes in your book? Worms are good for kids.

My book is called Logan’s Visa Run and it is science fiction and there is a TARDIS in it. So I’d probably get sued by Dr. Who. Or Logan.

The problem with books generally is that they come prewritten. Empty notebooks being, of course, the one notable exception. I always begin a series of lessons with an empty notebook, which these days I fill with dialogues. I write the students lines as dictated to me by them, minus the mistakes, and they write mine as dictated by me. I talk as fast as I can
and they need to fill in what they don’t hear using their understanding of grammar and their instinctive sense of how dialogue relates to goal and context. For example if, in the story, we are looking for green apples in the grocery store and upon finding green apples I, drooling, say /Iwannagitthegrin@plz/ it is unlikley that I said " contrary to popular wisdom the harlem globe trotters didn’t suffer diohrea on an international basis." It is possible that I said “Wow, I’d do her!” but “contrary to popular wisdom the harlem globe trotters didn’t suffer diohrea on an international basis” seems unlikely as would also seem unlikely I imagine the vast majority of any of the other aproximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 combinations of words made possible by the discreet combinatorial system that is generative grammar. The actual sound of an utterance like /Iwannagitthegrin@plz/ provides a clue as well, and in class I certainly repeat it, but native speakers hear those sounds in part because they are sensitive to context, and knowing the grammar systen down to their toes know, for example, that between “want” and “get” by far the most likely word, as dictated by the sytem, is “to”. Of course the system tends to be complex around the edges as well as at it’s core and it was for this reason, among others, that English teachers were invented.

So THIS is where the book thread went to. Er, I guess this disqualifies me, since my book has nothing to do with English teaching (except insofar as it applies to deviant sexuality), and I don’t anticipate schools wanting to buy it in bulk.

What prices do local printers offer for (say) a hundred-page paperback-style book, in quantities of 1000 or so?

Oh yeah, I’ll be handling the graphic side myself. I may be a shitty artist but I’m sure I can think of ways to startle people into picking up the book.

I imagine you would have been pretty upset if you had bought an expensive tome on the origins of language only to get it home and find the pages blank. :raspberry:

Have you seen “The Idea Book” by some Swedish guy? It combines the best of both worlds by providing both pre-written and empty pages for the reader to add their own ideas.

In a society whose education system does not promote creativity or problem-solving, I’m thinking that an educational book which requires the reader to participate by coming up with their own ideas may not be a bad thing.

But would anybody buy it?

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]So THIS is where the book thread went to. Er, I guess this disqualifies me, since my book has nothing to do with English teaching (except insofar as it applies to deviant sexuality), and I don’t anticipate schools wanting to buy it in bulk.

What prices do local printers offer for (say) a hundred-page paperback-style book, in quantities of 1000 or so?

Oh yeah, I’ll be handling the graphic side myself. I may be a shitty artist but I’m sure I can think of ways to startle people into picking up the book.[/quote]
You’re supposed to let your Screaming Apostles write your books.

Yeah, but they always misquote me. Plus they leave out Mrs. Jesus.

Do you remember the idea we had for a porno movie in which viewers would be invited to make suggestions and vote, via the internet, on who they wanted to see do what to whom? That would be a good idea for an English series as well, plus or minus the sex, depending on who the target audience happened to be.

This is of course another one of those brilliant ideas none of us has the jam to actually see to fruition, but remains a brilliant concept in theory and one remains hopeful there might be some value in that etc.

They already have this! Okay, it’s used mostly for kiddie-porn and stuff films, but usually these things go mainstream after awhile.

OK, so I just had my meeting with my future distributor. What I learned:

I have to get a Publishing License. (To do one book without an ISBN, you do not) (I have other plans, so I will need the license).

to get an ISBN, you need to have the Central Library in Taipei check it…make sure it’s not porn I guess

Book runs are 1000 copy minimum, some printers won’t go so low, some will. Smaller runs are more expensive.

Pages per book. Due to how the printed book is cut, books come in 16, 32, 48…etc pages.

Costs differ from printer to printer, but a 16 page book on new paper is about 10-15NT per book (being conservative), so 10-15k per 1000 book printing (paperback novels? I don’t know. If you want me to check something specific, PM me)

new paper is about 40% more expensive than recycled paper

A distributor will do one or/of two things with the books (unless you want to take 1000 books and stack them in your car or something)
1: send them to bookstores on consignment
2: schlep them around, send out samples to schools, libraries, etc

the distributor will charge you a percentage of the books’ sale price to do this leg work; it varies, but I wouldn’t expect it to be below 20-25% (ouch)

It would be nice if the privately published folk could come and and confirm some of this.

jd :rainbow:

If you have a book that has a cover price of $100 the numbers will generally break down like this:

Publishers in Taiwan will give you a 10 - 15% royalty on the price they sell the book for.
*If they have to pay for the art work, this will be even lower 8 - 10%.

There is also often a sliding scale such as: 10% for first 2,000 copies, 12% for next 3,000 and 15% for 5,000+
so that they can cover the fixed prices of layout, printing sheets, etc…

Most publishers however, don’t sell most of the books themselves and rely on local distributors.
This means that they sell the books to the distributor for 50% of the cover price, who then sells is for as much as they can get for it.
This also means that the writer only gets a maximum 15% of $50 or $7.5NT per book.

If you publish yourself, then your printing costs will be around $12-18NT for a book that sells for $100 (given that your print-run is large enough).
This means that when you sell to the distributor yourself for 50% you’re getting $50NT minus your $18 printing cost or $32 profit.
An added benifit of this is you know exactly how many books were printed and sold. Taiwanese publishers are notorious for ripping-off the writers and artists. You also get to retain 100% editorial control. This saves you from 3-hour long meetings about whether a small letter ‘q’ should have a tail or not.

The down side is that its hard to only deal with one distributor if you want to sell island-wide.
You also have to finance the print run and risk having unsold books returned to you by the distributors.

I went with an established publisher for my ‘Active Kids English’ series and they have been doing a fairly good job selling it after the year and a half it took them to actually get the books on the shelves. Over 4,000 students in Taiwan now use my books so I’m happy, but the money I now make isn’t really much compared with the time and effort I put into writing an 8 book series.

In terms of making money, it pays much better to just teach a few more hours a week than to every get involved in writing books.

[quote]the money I now make isn’t really much compared with the time and effort I put into writing an 8 book series.

In terms of making money, it pays much better to just teach a few more hours a week than to every get involved in writing books.[/quote]

That is true. Royalties blow. Teach well. Get ideas. Get in a school that allows you to USE new ideas. Write more.

Just keep swimming!