Referendums have consequences. Teh Grauniad intrepidly reports on the new government…
theguardian.com/politics/blo … ncy-budget
Poor Michael Gove has finally pissed off the wrong people.
Some young guy all cursing!
Two well spoken girls/ladies who can afford a toothbrush plus a hair dresser.
Nigel Farage couldn’t afford a toothbrush.
Boris Johnson can’t pay for a hair dresser.
So what’s next for the UK economically?
I’m no fan of May due to her immigration policies but British might have lucked out with somebody a bit more sensible in the top job, she’s going to borrow and spend more which is desperately needed to boost the economy and improve infrastructure. Let’s face it osbournea austerity plans were a complete failure. BOjo as foreign minister was not sensible though. Wrong choice.
One thing that hasn’t been talked about much is how the value of the pound has dropped precipitously over the last ten years or so. You often hear people talking about problems with the euro, and there are issues with its inflexibility , but it’s been a remarkably stable currency overall.
A lot of British are fond of the pound but if you look at how it’s dropped from 1:60 to 1:42 we can there’s been a massive fall in relative wealth vis a vis other countries. Now British salaries and dole money often look pretty poor compared to many developed countries whereas a few years ago it was definitely the top of the pile. I guess the huge salaries in the city of London made meant that lot didn’t care too much about the drop in value.
The other issue UK has is that 80% of its economy is services and a large wedge being finance area and finance ‘export industry’. The new government wants to cut taxes on corporations but increase spending all in a period when investment is going to drop off and jobs and tax income from city of London is going to drop off . Really challenging to achieve this goal.
What say brexiteers?
[quote=“headhonchoII”]
What say brexiteers?[/quote]
‘Who gives a shit?’, as a general rule.
May is putting Johnson in his place by making him deal with France, etc. She’s a clever woman who is basically neutering him. He’ll never be chancellor or PM now.
Who gives a shit 66 pages later…oh okay.
I can guess what May is doing but I think he’s a poor choice because he brings with him a whole load of baggage and is an attention seeker. How is that going to help the UK get better trade deals I don’t know. 'see that guy who has pisssd off all those chaps we need to negotiate with and get good terms from (you know the 27 countries where just one or two can get a veto) …yes the floppy haired chap…yes we shall make him our new foreign minister…spiffing.
Oh yes and the French hate him but he will charm them with that accent of his.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Who gives a shit 66 pages later…oh okay.
I can guess what May is doing but I think he’s a poor choice because he brings with him a whole load of baggage and is an attention seeker. How is that going to help the UK get better trade deals I don’t know. 'see that guy who has pisssd off all those chaps we need to negotiate with and get good terms from (you know the 27 countries where just one or two can get a veto) …yes the floppy haired chap…yes we shall make him our new foreign minister…spiffing.
Oh yes and the French hate him but he will charm them with that accent of his.[/quote]
Huh? I can pretty much guarantee none of them have read 66 pages of Formosa. What I’m saying is what outsiders don’t seem to want to address – that Brexiters for the large part don’t give a flying shit if the pound declines in value. I’m not a Brexiter so less of the snippiness, eh?
In Scotland now. 38% of Scottish voters also wanted out – referendums piss me off because they are always close and the losing side has to just suck up the ‘democratic results’, just like in the Scottish independence vote. However, pretty much the first thing May has done is to come to Sturgeon to figure out how to sort it out. Brexit is a done deal if Scotland leave the union,so May, a pro-UK, pro-Remain politician, is up here trying to convince her to hold off until they can stall on article 50. She’s pretty impressive, given the appalling hand she’s been dealt.
My view is that if Scotland goes, England should also vote to leave the UK and a new parliament formed. What’s going wrong for England is that the north has no political representation without the Scottish Labour voting block and although we are culturally and economically similar, we aren’t the same. The U.K. should exist as a loose federation with a single currency and free borders (like the EU …) but with Scotland, England and the other nations being governed by themselves. Wales, no idea. Those folk have no clue as to the extent to which they are funded by the UK and EU.
You’ve already established in this thread that you don’t care about the economics of it, but why you continually think that translates to “the large part” I’m not sure. Likely most of the 48% who voted to stay care about the potential economic consequences, and a good chunk of the 52% who voted to leave also care about a tanking pound and uncertain economic future. So who is this “large part” you speak of? You? A few of your friends? Statistically speaking, I’d say MOST of the UK cares more than a flying shit about the economics of it.
And again with the “outsiders” stuff? I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that there’s probably tens of millions of non UK citizens who know far more about the issues than many UK citizens do. Informed non UK citizens can also grasp the issues just as well as you can, just like non US citizens are quite capable of grasping the issues facing the US.
You’ve already established in this thread that you don’t care about the economics of it, but why you continually think that translates to “the large part” I’m not sure. Likely most of the 48% who voted to stay care about the potential economic consequences, and a good chunk of the 52% who voted to leave also care about a tanking pound and uncertain economic future. So who is this “large part” you speak of? You? A few of your friends? Statistically speaking, I’d say MOST of the UK cares more than a flying shit about the economics of it.
And again with the “outsiders” stuff? I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that there’s probably tens of millions of non UK citizens who know far more about the issues than many UK citizens do. Informed non UK citizens can also grasp the issues just as well as you can, just like non US citizens are quite capable of grasping the issues facing the US.[/quote]
Thumbs up.
You have successfully identified the issues with one issue democracy.
And now?
It’s possible that outsiders ‘understand’. It’s just as rare as hen’s teeth because they are operating on a very small amount of data. Have you ever read this forum’s views on Taiwanese or Chinese politics? Not exactly full with alacrity. I just don’t think it is intelligent or particularly useful to run everything through a fairly fixed heuristic of either ‘believe’ or ‘statistics’ and then stamp for feet when the world ain’t listening. It’s a lot of energy for not much payback because these matters are not a closed system, as far as the individual human mind is concerned.
All I see is a bunch of waiguoren saying ‘but the pound!’ and not a single, solitary Brit giving a shit, in this thread. That’s also not what any of my Scottish or English friends are talking about. Or really the media. You’re trying to measure weight with a ruler because you aren’t British and have a different lense.
Right now, we’re talking about independence, and about how we got hobbled last time by whiners who would rather stay in the UK than risk financial instability. Those days have passed. People don’t care: they’d rather just be free of the U.K., or free of the EU: whichever they see as the greater threat to self-determination.
Id say a large part also want to be free of the brown people and those ‘stealing our jobs And dole money’.
Hate to say it but the racists tipped the vote.m10% would be more than enough.
Migrants -the Jews , BLacks and Paddies of the 21st century.
mappingimmigrationcontroversy.f … nefits.jpg
Again, I don’t feel like you and your friends speak for the entire country. I believe most informed UK citizens understand that the economy is central to a countries standard of living and social structures. So yes, I think a great number of UK citizens care about the economy, the pound, trade deals, international investment, and the like. Since the Brexit vote, I’ve spoken to many people about this and most are concerned about such things because they understand there is a direct link between the strength of an economy and the social conditions in that country.
Saying you don’t give a flying shit about the economy and you only care about the social issues is kinda like saying you don’t give a flying shit that you smoke and eat McDonalds every day, you only care about your health and living a long life. It’s strange you don’t see how directly related these things are…
By you, you’re meaning the second person plural?
Just in Skye which is obviously aces. Lots of fishing boats have ‘Fishing For Leave’ flags on their boats.
It’s not ‘strange’, it’s human nature. Voters vote for lotsa reasons. By thinking it through from the arguments you consider important is only really useful if everyone is thinking like you, which clearly they are as they voted differently.
Was speaking to some Remaners and pro-Union Scots yesterday. We think Sturgeon and May can fix the Brexiters if they agree to work together. Depends whether the SNP can hold off a while on independence.
It’s not important because it’s important to me, some things are objectively important. The strength and future of an economy is objectively important to the people who live in that country. The value of the pound, trade deals, and international investment all matter to everybody from the rich to the poor. Actually it matters a lot more to the poor, because as always any financial mistakes within a country are felt the most by them.
Brexit by itself isn’t a negative. As I said before there are ways to do it successfully and with a good plan and good leadership it could work out. There was zero plan before and during the vote so it wasn’t exactly a great start to the process, but not all is lost just yet. But if the majority of the country thinks even close to the same lines as you, not giving a flying shit about the economy and thinking it’s a non issue, oh it’ll be negative.
Thankfully I think you’re in the small minority. I think most other people do care about things that directly effect their lives…
You’ve already established in this thread that you don’t care about the economics of it, but why you continually think that translates to “the large part” I’m not sure. Likely most of the 48% who voted to stay care about the potential economic consequences, and a good chunk of the 52% who voted to leave also care about a tanking pound and uncertain economic future. So who is this “large part” you speak of? You? A few of your friends? Statistically speaking, I’d say MOST of the UK cares more than a flying shit about the economics of it.
And again with the “outsiders” stuff? I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that there’s probably tens of millions of non UK citizens who know far more about the issues than many UK citizens do. Informed non UK citizens can also grasp the issues just as well as you can, just like non US citizens are quite capable of grasping the issues facing the US.[/quote]
Thumbs up.
You have successfully identified the issues with one issue democracy.
And now?
It’s possible that outsiders ‘understand’. It’s just as rare as hen’s teeth because they are operating on a very small amount of data. Have you ever read this forum’s views on Taiwanese or Chinese politics? Not exactly full with alacrity. I just don’t think it is intelligent or particularly useful to run everything through a fairly fixed heuristic of either ‘believe’ or ‘statistics’ and then stamp for feet when the world ain’t listening. It’s a lot of energy for not much payback because these matters are not a closed system, as far as the individual human mind is concerned.
All I see is a bunch of waiguoren saying ‘but the pound!’ and not a single, solitary Brit giving a shit, in this thread. That’s also not what any of my Scottish or English friends are talking about. Or really the media. You’re trying to measure weight with a ruler because you aren’t British and have a different lense.
Right now, we’re talking about independence, and about how we got hobbled last time by whiners who would rather stay in the UK than risk financial instability. Those days have passed. People don’t care: they’d rather just be free of the U.K., or free of the EU: whichever they see as the greater threat to self-determination.[/quote]
Exactly this. A lot of regurgitation of tabloid headlines, distant from actual conversations Brits are having.
Dunno, things are complicated.
It’s not important because it’s important to me, some things are objectively important. The strength and future of an economy is objectively important to the people who live in that country. The value of the pound, trade deals, and international investment all matter to everybody from the rich to the poor. Actually it matters a lot more to the poor, because as always any financial mistakes within a country are felt the most by them.
Brexit by itself isn’t a negative. As I said before there are ways to do it successfully and with a good plan and good leadership it could work out. There was zero plan before and during the vote so it wasn’t exactly a great start to the process, but not all is lost just yet. But if the majority of the country thinks even close to the same lines as you, not giving a flying shit about the economy and thinking it’s a non issue, oh it’ll be negative.
Thankfully I think you’re in the small minority. I think most other people do care about things that directly effect their lives…[/quote]
I don’t live here but the Brits employ me. That’s as stable as anything.
You’re wrong. You’re just looking at it from your own angle, the angle that you think is most important. That’s a natural bias and of course many people will share that. Britain’s just not thinking that way at the moment: it’s about self-determination, a trend that’s been here for years. Sturgeon and May can figure out a deal, I hope.
If it were the primary factor, then that’s what the whole discourse in the media would have focused on. It didn’t. It’s about white crosses on blue, red dragons and red on white. After years of austerity politics, ‘the pound’ is not the main or of the country. The ‘directly influence their lives’ thing misses the mark and shows to Brits that you don’t understand the cultural context of Brexit. It goes a bit deeper.
Anyway, fuck it, let’s agree to disagree. 
Er, didn’t the remain camp make the economic argument during the Brexit campaign? 
Edit: I learned an English poem recently. It goes like this:
There was a young fellow from Ankara
Who was a terrific wankerer
Till he sowed his wild oats
With the help of a goat
But he didn’t even stop to thankera
Maybe Johnson can wangle a deal on goat exports to Turkey?
I think its quite an attractive narrative to certain sections of the international community, and consequently parts of the media have decided to run with it. The narrative of mindless bucktoothed Brits, addled on a cocktail of nationalism, racism and false promises made by wily politicians were duped into voting against their interests and now they are in deep regret.
Too be honest, if thats what gets you excited, then go for it.
There’s obviously a multitude of reasons why people voted out AS WELL as why people voted in.
Don’t forget almost exactly the same number of people voted in as out!
So the idea that there was one voice or one trend is just bollocks really.
But I certainly believe racism and xenophobia put the leave vote over the line in a tight race, backed by healthy doses of political opportunism and right wing publishing magnates pulling the strings.
Google the anti migrant headlines in the tabloids that have been the staple for years in the UK. Being anti open migration is one thing, being openly xenophobic and spreading lies about migrants and foreign nationals is another.
independent.co.uk/news/uk/po … 42166.html
Brexit doesn’t mean Britain is leaving Europe in any real sense /- super ambassador BJ 
Boris Johnson said ahead of his first meeting of the EU’s Foreign Affairs Council that the UK would not “abandon its leading role” on the continent after Brexit.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]There’s obviously a multitude of reasons why people voted out AS WELL as why people voted in.
Don’t forget almost exactly the same number of people voted in as out!
So the idea that there was one voice or one trend is just bollocks really.
But I certainly believe racism and xenophobia put the leave vote over the line in a tight race, backed by healthy doses of political opportunism and right wing publishing magnates pulling the strings.
Google the anti migrant headlines in the tabloids that have been the staple for years in the UK. Being anti open migration is one thing, being openly xenophobic and spreading lies about migrants and foreign nationals is another.[/quote]
It’s an aspect. But, as you say, it’s been an element for years. I think it’s about representation and class. You could say ‘Labour party arrogance and stupidity that will probably lead to the breakup of the U.K.’ Was chatting to a barman who was telling me a bit about why most of the Scots fishermen were Brexiters and it was all about being told what to do by distant bureaucrats with the same arguments for their independence vote in the Scotland referendum.
There was a Parliamentary vote on the future of Trident today, and although many of the communities around Faslane support it, only one of Scotland’s MPs voted to continue. This is completely irrelevant under the current system and people take these things as a reason for change. Now this can be argued lots of ways, but it’s part of a larger trend, I think.