I’ve been thinking lately that my attitudes toward women are much different than my Taiwanese brethren. I’m not sure where the woman’s liberation movement came out of (this is where my thinking led me) but I was wondering how Taiwanese viewed women in different roles. Taiwan is, without a doubt, a very patriarchal society. I would say that this is also true, in a lesser degree, in America but the difference is that we have the notion of chivalry. As men we are expected to lay down our coats so that she doesn’t step in puddles, open doors for women and pay for dates. I’m I correct in thinking that these types of actions are uncommon in Taiwan? This thought occurred to me as I insisted a female colleague exit the elevator before me while she was adamant that I should go first. Are women just servants to the men? What do you think?
People used to do all that stuff in Taiwan as well. However, recently when you do those things, a girl might find you pretentious and disingenuous because, well, it’s not like she can’t side step a puddle or open a door on her own. I admit I still do those things whenever I have a chance, after all I was brought up that way. Though I don’t really think it’s odd guys here don’t do that. If a girl finds those gestures thoughtful, great, but usually if I try to open the car door for a girl, she would just tell me to get to the driver seat first so we can get going.
I also still often hold doors open for others, and find people would wait until I leave before they enter the door themselves.
In a traditional Han dominant society, I assume girls were expected to serve the men. Perhaps, chivalry is just an extension to the patriarchal society in reverse, so that men serve women in public because they assume desirable girls need to be helped.
I am acquainted with the idea that the whole notion of chivalry stems from women being weaker sex and must therefore be protected and taken care of. I do see the point and for true equality chivalry does seem like a relic from a bygone era. Don’t tell my mother that because she made sure that I opened doors for her. Maybe it was chivalry that created such fertile ground for the women’s liberation movement. Perhaps women’s lib is just chivalry run amok…
It’s the difference between being charming and creepy: it all rests on how the girl feels about you.
If Brad Pitt were to hold open the door she’d giggle and get hot and bothered. If you do it, they tell you to go first.
I’m accustomed to treating women with a heightened level of respect, call it chivalry if you will. The first time I held the door open for my Taiwanese sister-in-law she looked dumbfounded, later explaining that it’s just not common here. In fact, she pointed out something I didn’t notice before. Typically, men go first.
It’s just a one of those small cultural differences. I find it hard to answer when people ask, “What’s between living in Taiwan and America?” Because, simply put, absolutely everything is different.
I really find this question a little ludicrous though. Like how you said, “Are women just servants to men?” Obviously not, and I really don’t think there’s anyone out there that thinks this way. Except a couple terror organizations that trade women.
I’m not even speaking in terms of relationships specifically. I just think that men in Taiwan do not have to show deference to women. To me, this is specifically a chivalrous attitude and the opposite would be women showing deference to men. The question then becomes: Why don’t Taiwanese women like it when you pay for a date? I’m I the only one that has run into this?
People are friendly here but it is different. I can tell if someone was raised outside of Taiwan in an instant. Men don’t usually want to open the door first, or invite you to leave the elevator first. I don’t think this is specific to chivalry. People cut line - male or female. There’s no personal space unless they are frightened of foreigners and then they won’t even make eye contact or answer a 你好 as they cut in from of you. The good part about the personal space thing is that people do help each other here. I’m in awe of the friendships and business relationships that I have here. I travel frequently to Shenzhen, and it is really so so so nice here.
Well, in my experience, when a TW girl doesn’t let you pay on a date she’s either A) not interested sexually, or B) just trying to make it seem like you won’t have to subsidize her entire life later on, even though you will.
But what you’re talking about is just a basic cultural difference. People here don’t hold the door open for anyone, men or women. If you let someone go first on the street, many people will not acknowledge it at all. It’s not even an “Asian” thing; people in Japan aren’t like that. It’s about class and manners. Many people in Taiwan (not all) have stunted levels of class and manners. They think that getting good grades, a good job, and taking care of their immediate family is enough. China and Korea are largely similar. Of course, after dealing with rude assholes all day here you’ll inevitably bump into a Taiwanese person who’s the sweetest, most mannered and polite person ever, so don’t let the louts and boors get you down. Then again, don’t expect a “Thank You” if you hold open the door, either.
[quote=“Pinoco, post:6, topic:160769, full:true”]
I’m not even speaking in terms of relationships specifically. I just think that men in Taiwan do not have to show deference to women. [/quote]
You’ve apparently never been married to one.
It’s not as simple as a patriarchal/matriarchal dichotomy. Women hold quite a lot of informal power in Taiwan society (and at various points in Chinese history, a lot of formal power too). The word ‘equality’ doesn’t really mean much here: men and women have different powers over different areas of life. For example, it’s relatively common for women to be in control of household finances. I mean all the finances, not the “housekeeping money”.
Property is often held in a woman’s name. Women will tell you this is so she can have the husband by the balls if he plays around; whatever the reason, men acquiesce. Female managers are relatively common here and respected as long as they’re competent - you don’t get too much of the ‘pfft, what does she know’ stuff that sometimes happens in more chauvinistic societies.
As for holding doors open and whatnot, it seems that the etiquette is just different. People will hold doors open for their superiors, for guests, or for old people. Men and women are treated as equal on the door-opening issue.
I notice that every time I pay for something at the store they will try to give the change it to my girlfriend even though I gave them the money in the first place 
Obviously, women do hold many positions of power at work. This is especially true in the field of education where women largely outnumber men. Still, I can’t imagine how I would feel if my boss insisted that I go through a door before her. Pretty emasculated I imagine.
Perhaps its not due to Chivalry, but I always use the rule, “ladies first”.
Don’t do anything and expect a response or favor back. Do it because you want to and it is who you are. If you want to be chivalrous and a gentleman or a kind lady, then go for it! Don’t think about what someone else is thinking and don’t do it because you want to be thanked and worshiped.
The idea that Taiwanese men don’t hold doors open, don’t let women exit and enter elevators first, etc is plain rubbish. Some do, some don’t and that is the same in just about any country you go to. And why does it have to be men doing this for women? There is nothing wrong with holding a door open for someone or yielding for someone no matter what gender they are or you are…it is called being courteous and polite.
My experience with Taiwanese females is that they do appreciate you being courteous to them. There is even a bit of an expectation of it when they date foreigners.
i’m curious if you have dated a taiwanese woman or not to come to this conclusion.
you are pretty far off the mark. the guys here are expected, and are usually happy to (they will feel like a big man) to pay for all meals, pay for gifts, taxi the girl around everywhere even tho there is a perfectly good public transport system here. hold the womens bag and generally treat the girl like some sort of fragile princess. i wouldn’t say its chivalry, i would say its more …doormattery.
but both parties seem to be happy with it so who am i to judge.
opening doors for others is not a thing here in general. less to do with women. i’ve had old dudes swing a door in my face, its weird.
In Xhosa culture the male will walk through the door/into a room first to be able to protect her if there is any danger.
Cultures have different reasons for doing it differently 
The whole world is feminist probably except some traditional Islamic countries.
For men in this day and age, there’re only two rules.
1.Always be an alpha male.
2.Never be a beta male.
Period.
I’ve been in Taiwan for just over 2 years and I’ve dated a few women. They have all attempted to “go Dutch” while we dated and persisted for the most part. I find the idea of being a doormat for the woman to be enlightening. Holding their purse is where I draw the line.
So… evidently Chivalry doesn’t exist in Taiwan per se but control and deference does. Could it be that women have gained control over the years without it being strictly acknowledged, as a way for the man to save face? If so… bravo Taiwan.
Chivalry=white knight=beta male=provider=tool=what you shall never be
This is true, especially for the lower classes. In upper class society, things are a little different, but for sure hick girls (or those only one generation removed from heavy duty hickdom) will see chivalry as weak begging.
were the women you dated used to dating westerners or did they have some idea of what westerners do? thats all i can imagine happening. normal taiwanese girls are happy to let the man pick up everything, especially when paying the man needs to be seen to be paying at least.
its chinese culture for the woman to have control in the marriage, i doubt its a recent taiwanese thing. one of my buddys in china has his wife control all their finances and give him a monthly allowance.
I was the first boyfriend for all 3. Makes sense because they were only in their mid 30’s, living at home.
In the West, most women in their 30’s have been divorced once or twice, and had kids, child support, and alimony. Lol.