Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Control systems terminology. It means an external, unintended input that affects the output. Volcano. Fire. Humanity.

NO IT IS NOT. The earth is not a human being. It does not have a fever. We are not hurting its feelings. Mother Nature does not cry.[/quote]
It’s a metaphor, fred. You don’t have to take it absolutely literally. I was trying to point out that atmospheric CO2 is just a parameter that gives an indication of the system’s underlying state. It’s not something we (or nature) affect directly.

Nonsense.[/quote]
Sounds like you have new and improved theories to offer to the world of biochemistry and medicine, too? Well done, old chap. At least go and read wikipedia before your dismiss something as nonsense, eh?

A better approach than whose? climate change alarmists?[/quote]
Than those who are drawing an imaginary line based on computer models and saying “we can pollute this much, but no more”. What happens then is that people argue endlessly over whose models are correct and where the line ought to be.

No, but that’s the practical result of setting an emissions limit. The natural response is for everyone to try to make expensive bugfixes to meet the (arbitrary) target, instead of doing a proper redesign.[/quote]
He doesn’t get it.
It’s like this.
Tow people cook vegetables every night. One eats it and the other just cooks it and then throws all of it in the trash. A fire burns down the farm. Who is to blame for the lack of vegetables?
Must be the fire right?
Fred will try to figure out who started the fire. Hope he finds the perpetrator.
It can’t be the guy who wasted the veggies every night. The fire came after he wasted it. He is supporting the economy by buying vegetables in the first place. Yawn Yawn.
Point lost.

Not if all that is achieved is raising awareness. One would imagine that the vast bulk of any money and effort should be devoted to solving the problem.[/quote]

Of course. But in a pluralistic democracy it is often easier to get political will to solve a problem if there is awareness.

[quote]

Then, why continue to fund the NGOs if they have achieved nothing but awareness in 20 years?[/quote]

I see your point (I assume you mean NGOs primarily focused on AGW) but it is too soon to say I think with AGW. Perhaps we do have a major problem that we can mitigate and hence public awareness may one day play an important role. On the other hand, if the scientific evidence for AGW does not support major actions (carbon taxes, increased investment in renewables etc) then yes we should spend less money on NGOs that are involved in advocating these.

[quote]

So 20 years of nothing achieved except “raising awareness” and you think that this is not political? or self-serving at best?[/quote]

Name an influential, organized element in society that is not political or self-serving. That doesn’t mean they are all liars and cheats either though.

[quote]

Because this is the fifth or sixth such “movement” and the chief purpose of all has been to take from the productive and give to the unproductive.[/quote]

Who are you saying is unproductive? Please clarify.

Overall my point is this: there are many environmental groups in the world, and the concept of being / funding / heeding them has become entrenched in our political culture. Despite the loons in the movement, the greenies play an important role in raising awareness amongst the hoi polloi. Thanks to their agitation and banner hanging, people the world over are much more environmentally aware, and we are probably all safer for it.

As to cost benefit analysis and case-by-case analyses, sure there are issues. But I would not trust government and big business alone to deal with these issues in an appropriate and timely manner. Hence the need for NGOs.

Perhaps I am wrong and it all is an evil Marxist conspiracy led by Ellsworth Toohey, but you have failed to provide any real evidence or compelling argument on that score. Sorry, not trying to be negative, just MHO.

Oh?

But clearly you do? Let’s see…

Are we towing people now? Will assume that you mean two.

Why vegetables? and why would throw it all in the trash? I am assuming that you might be trying to make some sort of symbolic comparison to willful waste but I don’t get it if you are. OH! I see… THIS is the part that you were referring to when you said that I just didn’t get it. Okay. AGREED!

Where did the farm come from? and how can you burn down a farm? Do you mean burn down the farmhouse? the barn? the granary? the fields?

Here, then, we must assume that you mean the vegetables were FROM the farm that somehow burned down? So it must have been a vegetable farm, right? Although you did not tell us that… and how you burn down a vegetable field is interesting… I have heard of ripe cornfields being capable of burning and wheat fields but vegetable patches… INTERESTING… DEEP…

Assuming that someone could burn down a vegetable field… Have you ever tried? I guarantee you that a cabbage field, for example, ain’t easy to set on fire and even if you used artificial means to get it started would soon sputter out on its own accord so TOTAL destruction of any vegetable field is an assumption that may have resonance for symbolic purposes but not for those in reality. OH!!! I get it now… you are very cleverly satirizing the idiocy of the climate change alarmists by using a weak stupid idiotic point to bring the whole lack of logical argument crashing down… CLEVER!

NOT ANYMORE… Not since I understand your clever wordsmithing and wordplays… There is no need to find a perpetrator since the whole premise is too stupid… wait for it… for WORDS!!! YES!!!

??? Here you lose even the ardent fan that I have become… How would wasting vegetables be akin to destroying the source of the vegetables, itself? Poor use of resources is not the same as detroying the source of those, er, resources, right?

EXACTLY…

Yeah, something like that…

Maybe you should let me try the analogy game.

There is a vegetable field… A local famer uses hog manure to fertilize it and a local stream to water it. Near one end of the vegetable patch is a house with a growing family. At another side is a grove of trees that shades the field but provides sanctuary for birds that have pretty feathers.

Now if I were a climate change alarmist, I would engage in something like this…

  1. Because hog manure has sickened children at one field far far away, the local famer should not be able to use hog manure to fertilize any of his fields even though he is responsible and has NEVER had an incident of food contamination on his plot. This results in a 20% decline in vegetable production the first year and a 30% the second and a 50% the third… Soon the field is barely producing vegetables and the farmer has to switch to fallowing a third of it and crop rotation every year to ensure soil fertility.

  2. A local group of artists decides that it needs the stream to paint pretty pictures and that the farmer’s use of water is lowering the level by just enough to expose muddy banks and this is NOT pretty so it bans the use of water by the famer entirely. The farmer is unable to raise vegetables so he switches to corn which he has to truck 50 miles away to sell for money.
    (here kitty kitty… oh please… oh please)
    He buys his own vegetables in the town where he sells his corn. He has enough vegetables to eat. No one else in his village or locality does unless they go 50 miles to buy them from the same source. Everyone’s income and productivity drops by 40% due to the hike in costs and time needed to source vegetables. In fact, in most families, one person per day has to travel the 100 miles needed to buy vegetables, lowering family income by 30% and taking one productive person’s labor out of the work pool entirely. The local economy shrinks by one-third. The artists congratulate themselves on their enlightened attitudes. They now have poor peasants to add to the backdrop of their important social message.

  3. The farmer would like to sell part of the land nearest the growing family to ensure that they can build a separate house. He would then use part of the grove to make up for lost land to keep his production at the same level. The artists protest as does the elitist sportsman hunter who uses the trees one week per year to take a group of his stock market buddies hunting. The farmer is unable to sell the land. He is unable to generate a possible profit that would enable him to buy and install an irrigation system that would enable him to use one-fifth of the water that he normally has to use with much of it wasted because he has to water it during the day rather than more effectively at night. This would entirely solve the brown banks issue with the artists. Meanwhile, the growing family illegally squats in the woods where they illegally cut down trees to build a hut and sell the wood for firewood to maintain their living. During the course of their cutting, the birds’ habitat is entirely destroyed. The rich hunter and his friends no longer come. They no longer buy the artists’ paintings. The artists go out of business and become part of the downtrodden (But COLORFUL!) group of peasantry but no one is there to appreciate their quaintness. Eventually fighting among the groups leads to a massive gang fight during which the entire forest is burned down deliberately because if one person cannot benefit no one should. This whole gang fight was fueled by excessive drinking among the artists who have become violent because they are no longer gainfully employed and bear a grudge against society. Rather SOCIETY!!!

There. How’s that? I think that I get this far better than you. Any votes? :slight_smile:

fred’s burning down the house.
I shall attempt to cease such a haphazard endeavor by asking him on the sly how his cacti are doing…

fred, have you watered your plants since last week?
:no-no:

As to Big John’s apparent lack of understanding regarding the motivations of many who end up engaged in “environmental activism,” read on:

[quote]When Greenpeace founder Patrick Moore walked away from the group 10-odd years ago, he believed he was wrapping up, not jumping ship. Now he’s enduring catcalls of `eco-Judas.’

The war, it seemed to me, was over." With that thought in mind, self-described radical environmentalist Patrick Moore walked away from Greenpeace, the legendary headline-grabbing activist group he helped found in 1971. He had spent 15 years orchestrating daring stunts to save the whales and challenge nuclear testers. And there came a time, in the mid-1980s, when Moore began to believe that mainstream society had adopted most of the once-controversial goals of the environmental movement in which he believed. With a strong sense of major accomplishment, Moore retired from the fray to take up salmon farming in his native British Columbia.

As Moore sees it, the composition of Greenpeace has changed dramatically since his heyday. He says the fall of communism brought an influx of anti-corporate extremism to the environmental movement because, "suddenly, the international peace movement had a lot less to do. Pro-Soviet groups in the West were discredited. Many of their members moved into the environmental movement, bringing with them their eco-Marxism and pro-Sandinista sentiments.

“A lot of those in the peace movement were anti-American and, to an extent, pro-Soviet. By virtue of their anti-Americanism, they tended to sometimes favor the communist approach. A lot of those people, a lot of those social activists, moved into the environmental movement once the peace movement was no longer relevant.” Social activists, he suggests, “are now using the rhetoric of environmentalism to promote other collectivist agendas, such as class struggle – which I personally believe is a legitimate area, but I don’t believe it’s legitimate to mix it up with environmentalism.”

In addition to the activist influx, those who joined early on and remain in the group today have become more radicalized. Moore explains that as society adopted many of its original social and economic goals, the environmental movement “abandoned science and logic and moved to the left. Unfortunately, environmentalism is still defined by the media and by our culture as an adversarial role. If you want to remain in that adversarial role while society is adopting many of your more reasonable positions, you have to become more extreme in your positions.”

It is indeed a new day in British Columbia. Environmental activists who were once cultural heroes now find themselves under arrest for guerrilla-warfare tactics such as blockading logging roads. Citizens invite them to go home – to the United States or Europe – sometimes rather forcefully. Their former American Indian allies have branded them “environmental colonialists.”

Activists seem stunned by the rejection. In a lengthy posting on the Internet, the Rainforest Action Network (a San Francisco-based activist group) goes on at length in uncomprehending shock over the removal of its trespassing troops from trees they had climbed to hamper logging-removal accomplished under the approving eyes of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And, true to Moore’s observation that the extremists are becoming more extreme, the protesters blame their troubles not so much on loggers they want to put out of work but on alleged “white supremacists” they’ve found lurking in the B.C. backcountry.

The radicals argue that logging brings about deforestation with resultant climate change and extinction of species. “Some 50,000 species of plants and animals disappear from the planet each year,” said a wire-service story quoting officials of the World Wildlife Fund, or WWF. “Commercial loggers are mainly to blame,” the story said, again quoting the activists of the WWF.

Moore has called on the WWF to back up its claims, “to name one species” that has become extinct due to logging. The group was unable to name a single extinct species; yet, since first appearing in the press in March 1996, the charge continues to surface without mention of Moore’s unmet challenge. The actual facts of the matter, according to Moore, are that UN studies show 95 percent of deforestation is due to agriculture and settlement, which “only makes sense as the whole purpose of forestry is to grow trees, i.e., to keep the land forested.”[/quote]

Moore is now one of the biggest advocates for the oil sands. He has to battle idiotic Canadian-Malibu tinseltown elites such as James Cameron. Assholes that fly up North and thumb their nose at energy that the world needs. Better to get it from Canada than Saudi Arabia or Venezuela.

What fuels his SUVs? His mansion. His jets? Susan Sarandon’s piss? Hell no.

[quote=“ChewDawg”]
What fuels his SUVs? His mansion. His jets?
Susan Sarandon’s piss?
Hell no.[/quote]

Where did that idea come from?

Who do you think that I had in mind for my elitist hunter in the above analogy but let’s widen the pool of idiots…

[quote=“fred smith”]As to Big John’s apparent lack of understanding regarding the motivations of many who end up engaged in “environmental activism,” read on:

[quote]When Greenpeace founder Patrick Moore walked away from the group 10-odd years ago, he believed he was wrapping up, not jumping ship. Now he’s enduring catcalls of `eco-Judas.’

Moore has called on the WWF to back up its claims, “to name one species” that has become extinct due to logging. The group was unable to name a single extinct species; yet, since first appearing in the press in March 1996, the charge continues to surface without mention of Moore’s unmet challenge. The actual facts of the matter, according to Moore, are that UN studies show 95 percent of deforestation is due to agriculture and settlement, which “only makes sense as the whole purpose of forestry is to grow trees, i.e., to keep the land forested.”[/quote][/quote]

Well, three points spring to mind right away:

  1. What exactly was the WWF’s response? Why don’t you quote that so we can judge if they did have any valid points regarding species extinction.

  2. The article you quote does not in any way deal with the issue of motivation. So how can you claim it does? I am asking for evidence or compelling argument regarding motivation.

  3. I know about Moore. He has his place too. I encourage a lively debate on environmentalism and how to apply it to production. I am on no “side” in the debate. My wish is that the debate eventually creates greater understanding of how to be prosperous and secure but in ever-greener ways. For example, greenies in BC have saved a lot of pristine wilderness and ancient forest through public awareness campaigns resulting in more comprehensive environmental planning and enforcement. In response, the forestry industry has come up with more environmental ways to log: selective logging, leaving islands of pristine forest, protecting fish habitat, etc. But yes, we need people like Moore to balance the radicals, no doubt.

You can forget about growing cabbages in the US these days. It’s too hot.

You asked regarding communist motives and environmental activists. I have provided a rather detailed account from one of the founders of the key environmental organizations on the planet regarding the influence of former communists and their eternally protesting brethren and how their attraction to the environment is less about protecting the environment as it was in the previous generation and more about protesting protesting protesting without thinking about the consequences of their actions. Now, you want me to find the quote from World Peace regarding the matter of whether 50,000 species have been killed, become extinct? which is tangential and secondary? If you think that by asking what you think are penetrating hardball questions, you sound intelligent… consider this a failed mission. Greenpeace makes the claim. It was challenged by the very founder of the organization. I would suggest that it is YOUR responsibility to find that answer if you think that it proves some point. Why do I (wish I could capitalize that even further) find an answer to a question to which I strenously disagree? That is like saying… You have challenged the usefulness of the climate change alarmist movement but you have not provided any responses from those organizations to show that they have addressed your criticisms. I don’t have to. I don’t agree with their stance and motivations. That hardly obligates me to provide a platform for THEIR views.

Now, shall I ask you to also find past emails of mine to show how I have already addressed the issues that you have raised? by doing a search on all Fred Smith posts from 2002 to present? Let me know… I will be happy to find the Green Peace quotes if you will in turn find any and all quotes from Fred Smith on this forum made regarding the same subject at any time in the past 10 years. Deal? I would like to use the word dumbass here but I will restrain myself from doing so. :slight_smile:

I hear…

I hear it’s quite hot in the US, right now. In fact, I hear we broke some 40,000 records for hot temperature, and 6,000 for cold.

Weird.

Extreme variations in weather? Totally out of the blue. Huh. How 'bout that?

Always best to look at the year in which the latest “record” was set. You might find that taking any day of the year and looking for record heat and cold will lead to a very varied picture.

If that was an ironic, symbolic, iconic reference to the sky as well as pulling something out of your ass…

Pretty impressive. Now, if you use both hands and pull really hard, you might be able to get your head out, too!

[quote=“fred smith”]You asked regarding communist motives and environmental activists. I have provided a rather detailed account from one of the founders of the key environmental organizations on the planet regarding the influence of former communists and their eternally protesting brethren and how their attraction to the environment is less about protecting the environment as it was in the previous generation and more about protesting protesting protesting without thinking about the consequences of their actions. Now, you want me to find the quote from World Peace regarding the matter of whether 50,000 species have been killed, become extinct? which is tangential and secondary? If you think that by asking what you think are penetrating hardball questions, you sound intelligent… consider this a failed mission. Greenpeace makes the claim. It was challenged by the very founder of the organization. I would suggest that it is YOUR responsibility to find that answer if you think that it proves some point. Why do I (wish I could capitalize that even further) find an answer to a question to which I strenously disagree? That is like saying… You have challenged the usefulness of the climate change alarmist movement but you have not provided any responses from those organizations to show that they have addressed your criticisms. I don’t have to. I don’t agree with their stance and motivations. That hardly obligates me to provide a platform for THEIR views.

Now, shall I ask you to also find past emails of mine to show how I have already addressed the issues that you have raised? by doing a search on all Fred Smith posts from 2002 to present? Let me know… I will be happy to find the Green Peace quotes if you will in turn find any and all quotes from Fred Smith on this forum made regarding the same subject at any time in the past 10 years. Deal? I would like to use the word dumbass here but I will restrain myself from doing so. :slight_smile:[/quote]

Fred! Calm down!

I am saying you haven’t substantiated your claims that the green movement’s motivation is impure. If you want to rant at me, go ahead. Sticks and stones. But you haven’t really addressed the issue, have you old chap? You are just claiming to.

Fred,
You posted on how nature produces more CO2 than man and therefore we are not responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. What I posted prior to my “he doesn’t get it” rubbished your claim and you failed to respond. Humans ARE responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere and there are clear indications that the planet is experiencing a change in climate which could lead to potentially disastrous problems. Curbing CO2 emissions and trying to find better alternatives is NOT aimed at limiting the growth of anyone. It is all about the well-being of ALL of us, not just the farmers or rich business owners.
And yes, I meant “two” but then again it is common knowledge what happens when someone is out of arguments or doesn’t want to respond to things that indicate that they might not be 100% correct. That’s why we have the spelling and grammar police. Care for a badge. I’ll give you that vote.

Calm down? was I using exclamation points?

Oh dear… are we going to go through another episode of the Occupy Wall Street Movement? Do you really want to go down that trail again? I notice that since that smackdown, no one has dared to broach the subject and all of you ran off like little girls…This is part and parcel of that same motivation/thought process (cough cough)/desire to commit to a cause…

No one is saying EVERYONE in the Green movement’s motives are IMPURE. What I and the leader of one of the largest Green Peace are saying is that they are not sure of their motives and have latched onto the environmental movement to satisfy other motivations. Like the Occupy Wall Street movement, the Green movement is littered with confused individuals who are unable to articulate their end aims. Hmmmm, kinda sorta reminds me of what it is like to have a sorta kinda pseudo conversation with you. You are almost a proxy for discussing these issues with other like (cough cough) minded individuals who flock to these causes. The issue is then that those who understand conservation are forced by those who do not to engage in behavior that is directly counterproductive. Recalls to mind the wildfires in the West because environmentalists will not allow logging of mature trees which then start to decline and become more combustible. Brush clearing is also banned as it may cause some variety of frog or bird to be inconvenienced… but when the fire starts and the whole thousands of square miles of habitat goes up in smoke… well… the thinking conservationist might consider that a greater inconvenience but let’s not bring that up lest the feeling environmentalist’s feelings be hurt. They are such delicate easily wounded creatures.

If you want to rant at me, go ahead. Sticks and stones. But you haven't really addressed the issue, have you old chap? You are just claiming to.  

Rant? I think that I have addressed the issue but I don’t think that you have perceived it and, ironically, for the very same reasons that the Occupy Wall Street movement foundered. Let’s face it… some people really do not have the intelligence to be able to discuss these issues with any (what is the word that I want here…) objectivity. This reminds me of an “interview” on CNN where some dumb blonde with hardball (haha) questions tries to discuss quantum physics or CERT with a reigning expert on the subject. Let’s just end this conversation with your final comment… wrapping up our discussion… I suggest that you use the following:

  1. Well, isn’t that just amazing. Those kinds of collisions are a whole lot more than just a fender bender, aren’t they professor what’s it?
  2. So, really then, aren’t the predictions of the most out there science fiction movies now become realities professor what’s it?
  3. Quantum physics? Now, there’s a color of nail polish that I will look forward to being able to buy! What color and shade do you think would best fit that app… app… ell… app… (struggling to read teleprompter word…) apuhlatee un… oh name… there. um… maybe apple red? or green? apples could be yellow too. What do you think professor what’s it?
  4. So there you have it ladies and gentlemen… a major scientific breakthrough… but how you ask will this affect the price of gasoline at the pump? More about that as our business reporter Fellonnious Contemplatus takes us on a revealing revelation of price fixing at the pump!
  5. Subatomic particles? Not with Listerine mouthwash… and now a word from our sponsors!

My final conclusion…picture me humming the scarecrow song from the Wizard of Oz… Get it? GET IT? Professor What’s It has now left da house!

[quote]Fred,
You posted on how nature produces more CO2 than man and therefore we are not responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. What I posted prior to my “he doesn’t get it” rubbished your claim and you failed to respond. Humans ARE responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere and there are clear indications that the planet is experiencing a change in climate which could lead to potentially disastrous problems. Curbing CO2 emissions and trying to find better alternatives is NOT aimed at limiting the growth of anyone. It is all about the well-being of ALL of us, not just the farmers or rich business owners.
And yes, I meant “two” but then again it is common knowledge what happens when someone is out of arguments or doesn’t want to respond to things that indicate that they might not be 100% correct. That’s why we have the spelling and grammar police. Care for a badge. I’ll give you that vote.[/quote]

I stand by my remarks… By the way, have you met Big John? Big John, this is someone that I think that you will find that you have a lot in common with. Both of you were in the Occupy Wall Street movement in its early days before it was discredited and now both of you are climate change alarmists and activists… now follow me over here (scene from Animal House top fraternity screening process). Have you met Loser 1 and Dweeb 2 and Nerd 3 and Buttmunch 4? There, now you all just chat about what interests you.

[quote=“fred smith”][quote]Fred,
You posted on how nature produces more CO2 than man and therefore we are not responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. What I posted prior to my “he doesn’t get it” rubbished your claim and you failed to respond. Humans ARE responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere and there are clear indications that the planet is experiencing a change in climate which could lead to potentially disastrous problems. Curbing CO2 emissions and trying to find better alternatives is NOT aimed at limiting the growth of anyone. It is all about the well-being of ALL of us, not just the farmers or rich business owners.
And yes, I meant “two” but then again it is common knowledge what happens when someone is out of arguments or doesn’t want to respond to things that indicate that they might not be 100% correct. That’s why we have the spelling and grammar police. Care for a badge. I’ll give you that vote.[/quote]

I stand by my remarks… By the way, have you met Big John? Big John, this is someone that I think that you will find that you have a lot in common with. Both of you were in the Occupy Wall Street movement in its early days before it was discredited and now both of you are climate change alarmists and activists… now follow me over here (scene from Animal House top fraternity screening process). Have you met Loser 1 and Dweeb 2 and Nerd 3 and Buttmunch 4? There, now you all just chat about what interests you.[/quote]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what’s natural and what’s human-induced, so I’ll try and give a simplified explanation. The greenhouse effect is a natural process, with water vapour being the main greenhouse gas, followed by CO2 and other trace gases. This natural greenhouse effect allows the planet to be livable, with an average global temperature of 14C. Without it, the average global temperature would be -18C and couldn’t support life. While water vapour is the main gas, it’s not really affected by anything humans do, and where it is, the effects are only on a local scale. Essentially, we don’t need to worry about atmospheric H2O.

CO2 on the other hand, does have global effects. The natural atmospheric CO2 is about 280ppm during warm interglacial periods such as have existed over the last few hundred years. During an ice age, the CO2 concentration drops to around 200ppm. Over the past millennia, the average has been around that 280ppm figure, with a drop to about 260ppm during the “little ice age” and rise to 290ppm during the medieval warm period. The average concentration prior to the industrial revolution (sticking with the milennia scenario) was about 270ppm. As of mid-2011, the concentration of atmospheric CO2 is 391ppm. CO2 lasts a long time (in human terms) in the atmosphere, which is why it’s a problem. Anywhere from a century to a millennia (in human terms that’s a large range but in geological terms it’s a blink of an eye). CO2 accounts for the majority of human-produced increase in greenhouse gases.

Methane is the other greenhouse gas that often gets mentioned and it has seen a steady rise over the past century, with a peak rise of an average of 1% per year, although that has tapered off since 2000. It’s not fully understand what has caused the increase to level off over the last decade but the most likely scenario is a drop in the amount that leaks from natural gas pipelines as they become more efficient. At a molecular level, it is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 however there is a lot less of it (measured in parts per billion), and it only stays in the atmosphere for about a decade.

Why not? and have there been any changes in the atmospheric H2O level?

Does it?

As to the methane, this was a major concern only a few years ago and now you dismissively wave it away. Will you also be doing the same for CO2 when new evidence emerges? Remember ALARMISTS were ALSO pointing to the dangers of methane…

[quote=“fred smith”][quote]Fred,
You posted on how nature produces more CO2 than man and therefore we are not responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. What I posted prior to my “he doesn’t get it” rubbished your claim and you failed to respond. Humans ARE responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere and there are clear indications that the planet is experiencing a change in climate which could lead to potentially disastrous problems. Curbing CO2 emissions and trying to find better alternatives is NOT aimed at limiting the growth of anyone. It is all about the well-being of ALL of us, not just the farmers or rich business owners.
And yes, I meant “two” but then again it is common knowledge what happens when someone is out of arguments or doesn’t want to respond to things that indicate that they might not be 100% correct. That’s why we have the spelling and grammar police. Care for a badge. I’ll give you that vote.[/quote]

I stand by my remarks… By the way, have you met Big John? Big John, this is someone that I think that you will find that you have a lot in common with. Both of you were in the Occupy Wall Street movement in its early days before it was discredited and now both of you are climate change alarmists and activists… now follow me over here (scene from Animal House top fraternity screening process). Have you met Loser 1 and Dweeb 2 and Nerd 3 and Buttmunch 4? There, now you all just chat about what interests you.[/quote]
I’m Taiwanese. I couldn’t give a damn about the occupy wall street movement. Stop categorizing me!
You on the other hand seems like an economy alarmist. Everything we do is to hurt the economy. Let’s not be concerned about the planet. Let us rather worry about jobs and money. That’s what is important. Right?
Have you met Greed 1, Sloth 2 Gluttony 3, Pride 4, Envy 5, Lust 6, Wrath 7 and Fox 8. There, now you all just chat about what interests you. I’ll chat to me nerdy friends ove’ he’e.