Confucianism - the source of local apathy

Arts & Sciences Culture & History
1

I think that about 90% of the problems in Taibei stem from one thing: apathy. People don’t care about police corruption, or at least feel powerless to change it. The same goes for political corruption. The same goes for the dehumanizing exam system. And for illegal buildings. And Mercedes parked in front of fire hydrants. And all the myriad forms of sidewalk violations. And many, many, many other problems.

philosophy–>
What is the source of all this apathy? I think it’s Confucianism.

In the debate over universal love vs. family-centered love, Confucianism won out. Mozi said that people should love all people equally; Mencius argued that it’s natural for people to love their parents more than strangers. The amount you should care about someone is inversely proportional to the distance of their relationship to you. You should love your parents more than life itself, but total strangers don’t even come onto the radar screen.

The Confucians won, and 2000 years later Taiwan is stuck with a Confucian system. The system assumes that people should care more about their parents than distant friends, and assumes that people shouldn’t care about complete strangers at all. I think you could argue that Taiwanese family members show more affection for each other than Westerners; though of course it’s hard to prove, I really think it’s true. I know that if I had to choose between a non-dysfunctional Taiwanese family and a non-dysfunctional Western one, I’d probably choose the Taiwanese one. It’s always amazing to see how Taiwanese people maintain their expressionless expressions when there isn’t anyone around who they know, but as soon as they see someone they know, they’re all smiles.

On the other hand, they care about strangers – abandoned dogs, foreigners, the scooter-driver who parked next to your Mercedes, the family living six floors below you – hardly at all. This creates parking problems, dozens of near-accidents a day, etc. Why should you look out for the guy on the scooter when he has no relationship to you? Why shouldn’t you park on someone else’s property, if you have no relationship to them and therefore aren’t responsible to them? As I have said elsewhere, and to paraphrase Monty Python, Confucianism is no basis for a traffic system.

This also explains building codes – why should you care about some schmuck who’s going to live in this building ten years from now, when you can save a few bucks now and pay for dialysis for your mom? I think it also explains sidewalk violations, random pollution, the lack of public trash cans and public toilets, etc.

Confucianism also values harmony over progress, so it’s far better to solve a traffic dispute calmly over tea than by (tsk, tsk) calling in the cops to solve the problem for you. It’s also amazing how bu shang heqi usually means the rich person gets their way. And it’s also unseemly to push for change by protesting or challenging political officials.

I really think these two things – caring about someone based on their relationship to you, and not harming harmony – account for most of the problems we see. Maybe I’m just in the stage of culture shock where I think I know everything. Maybe, but it really seems to explain a lot.

The really interesting question is, where does Confucianism come from? And how did it ‘win’? And, maybe, should Taiwan try to unseat it as the philosophy of choice?
<–philosophy

Sorry, didn’t mean to write a book. I’ve just been thinking about all this a lot lately.

2

[quote=“RachelK”]I really think these two things – caring about someone based on their relationship to you, and not harming harmony – account for most of the problems we see. Maybe I’m just in the stage of culture shock where I think I know everything. Maybe, but it really seems to explain a lot.

The really interesting question is, where does Confucianism come from? And how did it ‘win’? And, maybe, should Taiwan try to unseat it as the philosophy of choice?
<–philosophy

Sorry, didn’t mean to write a book. I’ve just been thinking about all this a lot lately.[/quote]

Most of what you said is accurate. The influence of Confucianism here (and in Japan, Korea, etc.) runs very deep. Unfortunately, the brand of Confucianism we see today (as I’ve mentioned in other posts) is a far cry from the “original” Confucianism propagated centuries and centuries ago. Regardless, it’s influence is undeniable and so deeply entrenched that twenty Mao Zedong’s and thirty Cultural Revolutions won’t be able to unseat it. This debate against Confucianism vs. the modern world has been going on since the latter years of the Qing Dynasty, and reached it’s zenith around the time of the May 4th Movement. Why did Confucianism win? Well, mostly it was luck. It survived the onslaught of the first emperor, Qin Shihuang, whereas many other schools of thought died out. Many younger Taiwanese/Chinese will agree that many Confucian beliefs are outdated, and will even go so far as to say that they don’t believe in most of those ideals anymore … but at the same time, they unconsciously uphold many of these things in their every action.

Interestingly, my reading of the Four Books seems to be quite different than most Chinese (well, actually, many have memorized the teachings of Confucius, Mencius, etc., but have never really tried to understand them, just listen to what their teachers and parents say). I don’t see a disregard for other people, but rather talk of “humanity” and “benevolence”. I think that some problems can be blamed on Confucianism, but some are things that have naturally arisen from certain sociological factors that have nothing to do with “philosophy” but moreso to do with a need to fight, many times ferociously, for survival over thousands of years in China. When you look at it this way, it’s hard to blame them.

I’ve discussed this issue with many of my young Taiwanese friends (and usually in relation to the driving situation). I proposed a (somewhat joking) hypothesis to them … that because of the “Five Relationships”, people driving literally cannot see other drivers or pedestrians when they’re driving, because those people do not fall into that person’s “Five Relationships” (i.e. they’re not his ruler, wife/husband, child, teacher, or friend), so to that person they don’t exist. In that driver’s eyes, he is really the only mofo driving down that street. Same goes for the guy who cuts in front of you in line at the store. Everyone else simply doesn’t exist in their world, they’re invisible. When I’ve said this before, it’s obviously tongue-in-cheek, but surprisingly, most of my Taiwanese friends have said that, basically, that’s the way it is. Unless people outside of those aforementioned relationships directly comes into contact with you, they’re not even there. With this in mind, one would think no wonder Chinese breed like rabbits, when they look around they wonder to themselves, “jeez, there’s no one around, it’s up to me to re-populate!” :laughing: :laughing: (just playin’!)

What’s the answer to all this mess? A massive education campaign. However, the government now is more concerned with whether or not to use constructionist mathematics, university tuition, and how to go about teaching English properly, and not on things like raising the public consciousness, civic responsibility, and the promotion of democratic ideals. So, basically, there’s nothing we can do but sit back and shake our heads. The powers-that-be see absolutely nothing wrong, and a few foreigners like us certainly aren’t going to convince them otherwise. We’re the barbarians, remember? :?

3

I agree with much of what the above posts by LBTW and RachelK say. Confucianism, as it is applied today, is largely responsible for the state of relationships and actions taken based on the same here in Taiwan.

When I speak of this matter with my Taiwanese friends, I often ask them to imagine how they would help their aged mother or grandmother walk across the street, holding her by the hand and the other arm gently holding her up by the shoulders, so as to make it easy for her to walk and to keep her from falling or walking into a puddle.

Yet, I point out, if my Taiwanese friends were driving, and someone else’s old mother or grandmother was trying to cross the street, they would likely just as soon run her over or at least drive into the puddle to splash her.

No relationship, no face to be lost or gained. No face to be lost or gained, no responsibility, one way or the other.

That’s it, in a nutshell.

4

Hmm… Well, yes, but many other systems survived the Burning of the Books and Burying of the Scholars. Why did Confucianism flourish?

Personally, I think that Confucianism adopted itself to become what the people and the powers-that-be wanted. Just like modern-day Christianity has become either fiercely conservative or powerfully liberal, depending on who’s doing the interpreting, and just like Buddhism changed when it came into China, Confucianism has also been interpreted and reinterpreted. I would argue that, though there is a core of beliefs that stay the same, most of what a religion preaches is just the ideals of the people who adhere to it, regardless of what the ‘original’ religion taught. This is not limited to Confucianism; it is true of all religions that I know of.

The question then is, where do the ideals of the people come from? I personally think the crux (at least for Taiwan) is population density. (Not an original idea, I know, but nonetheless accurate.) Seriously, think about it. If a person in Taibei had to say “excuse me” to every person who was in their way, they would never stop. I think they’d all start working at night to avoid having to say “excuse me” 9 quadrillion times a day. If you had to take everyone you affect into consideration, you’d never stop. In this situation, it really is natural to care more about those close to you and not at all about those distant from you.

In the West, people had the luxury of low population density and therefore the possibility of considering people as individuals. Before the Black Plague, there could have been no Enlightenment, and certainly no Kant, I would argue.

I’m not so sure. As you pointed out, LittleBuddha, Mao and the Cultural Revolution were unable to change this. Naming all the streets after universal ideals (what is boai after all but a revivification of Mozi’s jian’ai?) doesn’t help, it just makes people inured to these ideals. I think that, if change comes, it will be from foreigners who teach English making slight inroads into the mindsets of students, and from students who study abroad, and possibly (just possibly) from Buddhism. Eventually, people may realize that what makes Singapore a success is not its Confucianism, but its Kantianism – and then emulate that. I think that, unless an education campaign was designed to not use traditional Confucian pedagogy, it would be pointless. Most campaigns here are merely koutouchan – just slogans and nothing more.

5

it;s a mindset, a worldview, a welterschang, an inherited POV deeply set in by mindcontrol propaganda of the first years – in any culture. The west is the result of centures of African/Persian.Egyptian.Hebrew/SUfi/Greek/Roman/Euro development, with set mindsets.

The east grew up different in differnent climate and different culture and population mixes. so east is east, west is west.

One POV is not superior to the other, except in terms of social evoltuion and the pursuit of happiness. An orgasm is an orgasm. I think the point of all this living here is to get over our western upbringing and join the fray. IE, become confucianist and live the true life here. try it. the west is certainly a sick society, for all its technological prowesss and that is why the muslims hate the west. and why they will destroy it. notice they are not attacking asia. Bali not considered.

who is right? in the end, we’re all dead sooner or later.

why come to asia if all you want to do is lord it over the locals and show how superior you are? we are not superior. they are not inferior.

we got it all wrong to begin with

6

Basically, I think it’s impossible to lay the blame on any one thing. It’s a complicated set of conditions that have developed (festered) over thousands of years. It’s a combination of religious, philosophical, and sociological factors. I think the biggest problem now is what one poster said: apathy. I think the Taiwanese/Chinese are fully able to change, progress, and keep up with the times. They’re certainly not stupid or incapable, otherwise their civilization wouldn’t have lasted so long. There are many well-educated Taiwanese out there, and people are becoming more and more open-minded. The problem is that they don’t realize that they have the capacity (and responsibility) to push the envelope and spur social progress. This comes from two fronts: firstly, the powers-that-be don’t want the social order/status quo changed. Secondly, the older generations don’t want the power/influence within their families to be threatened, so they use guilt, manipulation, and empty “Confucian” values to oppress the younger generations. It boggles my mind every time I hear someone over 20 years old tell me that their parents won’t “let” them do something. After I turned 18, my parents would never presume to tell me what to do, and if they had, although I would take their opinion into consideration, I would still do what I wanted. I think I’m mature enough to make my own decisions. Here, the influence of the family extends throughout one’s life, and rather than being conscious of breaking the cycle of control and manipulation when it comes to dealing with/treating the younger generation, most Taiwanese seem to feel that “this is the way I was treated, so this is the way I must treat my kids.” Unfortunately, with the rapid pace of globalization and increasing international competitiveness, if they don’t catch up with the rest of the modern world, they will soon be marginalized. Even for those of us who were raised and educated in a more “enlightened” environment (and I stress the parentheses), even we are struggling to keep up with the pace of change.

Anyway, we can hypothesize and debate about these “enlightened” ideas until the cows come home, but the fact is that most Taiwanese don’t think about these things, and even if they do, they aren’t likely to challenge the establishment. RachelK is right in one respect, hopefully those people teaching English to kids will start to make slight inroads. When I was teaching English, I made sure to try to impart some of my beliefs on my kids … the only problem is, no matter how much we stress free-thinking, creativity, manners, etc. in the schools, when they go home or when the foreign teacher isn’t around and see how their families behave and treat others, who are they going to choose to emulate? The answer is probably their parents. One small example is that I always struggled to get my kids to use soap when they wash their hands … just rinsing them with water is pointless. However, when I wasn’t there to watch them like a hawk, the Chinese teachers certainly didn’t enforce this, and when they see dad walk right past the sink without pausing after just wiping his ass, they’re going to do the same thing … and so, the viscious cycle continues …

7

I know very little about philosophy, but taking your post at face value, yes that may well be a reasoning behind certain inconsiderate actions. If I complain about bad driving to Taiwanese friends, they often say ‘Oh yes, we have so much traffic’. (Sometimes they will even say “There are too many motorcycles” - does that mean that if all the motorcycle riders drove cars the situation would improve?!).

Yet this reasoning is faulty. Having a lot of vehicles on the road is even more reason to obey traffic regulations in order to insure the smooth, swift passage of all. The same with the people who try to enter an elevator before others have exited; it slows everyone down including themsleves. Have you heard the story about that greedy monkey who stuck his hand in a jar, trying to get the food out, but because his hand was clenched around the food, he couldn’t squeeze it out of the jar? The same thing is happening in Taiwan’s public spaces every day.

One solution I have for Taiwan’s social and organisational problems would be to give every child a construction set such as Mecano. In this way they could learn basic mechanical principles and hopefully start to apply them to real life.

8

I’m not certain that I’d even frame this issue as whether or not Confucianism (as it is applied today in Taiwan) is a/the source of apathy. I don’t think the Taiwanese are particularly apathetic… they care very much about family and friends and anyone within one of the five relationships identified by Confucianism.

Rather, I think Confucianism (as it has been and is applied today in Taiwan) has been one of the major obstacles to the dvelopment of a civil society in Taiwan. But even this is changing… Taiwan IS slowly developing into a civil society. But I think that the traditional lack of concern for anyone outside of one’s circle of relationships has made it difficult in the past, and now, but to a lesser degree, for Taiwan to develop a civil society.

9

[quote=“tigerman”]I’m not certain that I’d even frame this issue as whether or not Confucianism (as it is applied today in Taiwan) is a/the source of apathy. I don’t think the Taiwanese are particularly apathetic… they care very much about family and friends and anyone within one of the five relationships identified by Confucianism.

Rather, I think Confucianism (as it has been and is applied today in Taiwan) has been one of the major obstacles to the dvelopment of a civil society in Taiwan. But even this is changing… Taiwan IS slowly developing into a civil society. But I think that the traditional lack of concern for anyone outside of one’s circle of relationships has made it difficult in the past, and now, but to a lesser degree, for Taiwan to develop a civil society.[/quote]

China did have a choice between the particularism of Confucian beliefs and the universalism of the Mohists. They rejected the teachings of Mohism and Mohism became an obscure bookmark in the annals of Chinese history and culture.

As for the grandma crossing, Confucianism doesn’t have to come into play. Sure there are the circles of relationship, but what about just plain civilness and civic duty? People here talk about Ren. What good is Ren/Jen if you only apply it to your parents, your best friends. Ren/Jen then becomes meaningless. No, the Chinese here just dropped the ball on that aspect of Confucianism or that kind of Confucianism, as suggested above, was long ago discarded.

by the way, i hate confucius. he embodies that part of China which destroyed and froze the spirit and vitality of a people. yes, Chinese survived and are good survivors, but to what end, what purpose? (ask that of any nation, people)

10

That’s my point. I think that because of the circles of relationship, which are by definition, limited and bounded, civility toward those outside of the circle of relationships is stunted. Confucianism, as it is applied in Taiwan, prescribes the bounderies and limits of civilness extended to others. Those outside one’s circle of relationships do not need to be extended any civilities, as they cannot give one face or make one lose face.

Again, I think the five relationships have effectively limited the extent to which Jen is applied. Thus, no civil society (or at least a very slowly developing one). The five relationships derive from Confucian thinking, thus, Confucianism as it is applie in taiwan, is IMO, largely to blame for the lack of a civil society in Taiwan.

11

Regarding Ren/Jen, I agree with your reading of it. the 5 Relationships should not even come into the picture and yet people have made their choices concerning what Ren should be. Whereas I think, definitionally, the concept of Benevolence/Humanity extends beyond to all people, if not all living creatures. It’s kinda like modifying the saying “Love your fellow Man” but only if that Man is within your circle of friends and family. Then the whole original point is lost. In the same way, I think Benevolence/Humanity is lost.

Confucius was scared because he thought he saw the golden age of Chinese culture being swept away. Instead, he froze everything, idealized the past, and shut out the future.
People talk about the First Emperor as a villain eg book-burning and scholar-burying, but the editings/interpretations/deletions of the Confucianists did far far more damage than anything else we know of.

12

Yes.

13

This reminds me of the thread where someone said that Taiwanese have cornered the market on procrastination, which is complete BS. Apathy? They haven’t cornered the market on this either.

14

You are deluding yourself if you think that Confucianism plays much of a role in people’s behavior here. Modern Chinese people are not walking around thinking about ‘Five Relations’. There are explanations much closer at hand for why people act the way they in Taiwan.

Example: Did people in Taiwan have a high savings rate because of the traditional valuing of frugality? No. They saved a lot because there were no other legal investment vehicles at the time and there were many barriers to consumption.

Example 2: Does reckless driving have anything to do with Confucianism? No. People drive the way they do because the laws are not enforced. The laws are not enforced not because of Confucianism but because the police are poorly trained and poorly paid.

15

I disagree. I think Confucianism has an enormous influence on social behavior here. Of cource Chinese (and Taiwanese) people are not consciously thinking about the 5 relationships… they don’t need to… these ideas are ingrained in their minds.

Yeah… but what has this to do with the 5 relationships?

And the police are not trained well or paid well because a civil society has never been valued, because the Confucian 5 relationships have limited social relationships, or at least responsibility, to the bounded circle of relationships.

16

Here are 2 interesting commentaries on cultural differences and control. While the first article is mainly concerned with Arab culture…there are certain similarities to what is being discussed here.

unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Is … rabs1.html

carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/para … peters.htm

17

One interesting point about the “Five Relationships” is that in none are the actors equal. There are no horizontal relationships. All are based on someone being on top and someone on the bottom. Think this produces a certain amount of suppressed hostility?

18

And the police are not trained well or paid well because a civil society has never been valued, because the Confucian 5 relationships have limited social relationships, or at least responsibility, to the bounded circle of relationships.[/quote]

That explains all the reckless drivers in Thailand and Indonesia.

19

Yes.[/quote]

lol. i guess i’m just too used to disagreeing or arguing with you, it’s an ingrained habit…

20

From the second article that Blueface posted:

[quote]Family Values

After the exclusion of women from productive endeavors, the next-worst wastage of human potential occurs in societies where the extended family, clan, or tribe is the basic social unit. While family networks provide a safety net in troubled times, offering practical support and psychological protection, and may even build a house for you, they do not build the rule of law, or democracy, or legitimate corporations, or free markets. Where the family or clan prevails, you do not hire the best man (to say nothing of the best woman) for the job, you hire Cousin Luis. You do not vote for the best man, you vote for Uncle Ali. And you do not consider cease-fire deals or shareholder interests to be matters of serious obligation.

Such cultures tend to be peasant-based or of peasant origin, with the attendant peasant’s suspicion of the outsider and of authority. Oligarchies of landed families freeze the pattern in time. There is a preference for a dollar grabbed today over a thousand dollars accrued in the course of an extended business relationship. Blood-based societies operate under two sets of rules: one, generally honest, for the relative; and another, ruthless and amoral, for deals involving the outsider. The receipt of money now is more important than building a long-term relationship. Such societies fight well as tribes, but terribly as nations.

At its most successful, this is the system of the Chinese diaspora, but that is a unique case. The Darwinian selection that led to the establishment and perpetuation of the great Chinese merchant families (and village networks), coupled with the steely power of southern China’s culture, has made this example an exception to many rules. More typical examples of the Vetternwirtschaft system are Iranian businesses, Nigerian criminal organizations, Mexican political and drug cartels, and some American trade unions.

Where blood ties rule, you cannot trust the contract, let alone the handshake. Nor will you see the delegation of authority so necessary to compete in the modern military or economic spheres. Information and wealth are assessed from a zero-sum worldview. Corruption flourishes. Blood ties produce notable family successes, but they do not produce competitive societies. [/quote]

This is what I am talking about. Although the author cites the Chinese experience as an exception, I think it is only an exception when compared with other such family/clan/relations-oriented societies. But when contrasted with a society based on the rule of law rather than on blood-ties, Chinese (and Taiwanese) society ranks as a much less civil society than most Western societies.