Confucianism - the source of local apathy

[Tigerman]

@HakkaSonic

[quote=“tigerman”][quote=“Feiren”]Example 2: Does reckless driving have anything to do with Confucianism? No. People drive the way they do because the laws are not enforced. The laws are not enforced not because of Confucianism but because the police are poorly trained and poorly paid.

And the police are not trained well or paid well because a civil society has never been valued, because the Confucian 5 relationships have limited social relationships, or at least responsibility, to the bounded circle of relationships.[/quote]

That explains all the reckless drivers in Thailand and Indonesia.[/quote]

I admit ignorance regarding both Thai and Indonesian societies. However, I imagine that if they have not been influenced by Confucian ideology, they share a similar concept of heirarchical social structure where family/blood ties prevail over ties to outsiders. If that is true, then they too would lack any meaningful concern for anyone outside of their family/blood ties or other relationships, which would in turn, I think, have a similar affect on traffic behavior.

Or, am I completely wrong about that?

[Jack_Burton]

[quote=“tigerman”]From the second article that Blueface posted:

This is what I am talking about. Although the author cites the Chinese experience as an exception, I think it is only an exception when compared with other such family/clan/relations-oriented societies. But when contrasted with a society based on the rule of law rather than on blood-ties, Chinese (and Taiwanese) society ranks as a much less civil society than most Western societies.[/quote]

Somewhere in the middle there should be a nice medium i hope. I love the rule of law and transparency. but looking at the rule of law in the US, i cannot help but wonder whether it has been subverted, at some important points of power, by the lobbyists. So instead of family interests, you now get industry interests. And industry interests don’t always mean better competitiveness or greater public good/interest. and behind the scenes in America, we have some pretty rich families continuing their dynasty (remember the show) a la Rockefeller, etc. For every drug cartel in Mexico, isn’t there a fruit family or a oil family in the US?

[HakkaSonic]

@tigerman

[quote=“HakkaSonic”][quote=“tigerman”][quote=“Feiren”]Example 2: Does reckless driving have anything to do with Confucianism? No. People drive the way they do because the laws are not enforced. The laws are not enforced not because of Confucianism but because the police are poorly trained and poorly paid.

And the police are not trained well or paid well because a civil society has never been valued, because the Confucian 5 relationships have limited social relationships, or at least responsibility, to the bounded circle of relationships.[/quote]

That explains all the reckless drivers in Thailand and Indonesia.[/quote]

I admit ignorance regarding both Thai and Indonesian societies. However, I imagine that if they have not been influenced by Confucian ideology, they share a similar concept of heirarchical social structure where family/blood ties prevail over ties to outsiders. If that is true, then they too would lack any meaningful concern for anyone outside of their family/blood ties or other relationships, which would in turn, I think, have a similar affect on traffic behavior.

Or, am I completely wrong about that?[/quote]

Tiger, I’m not sure. I remember reading in one of Bill Bryson’s books that traffic in many American cities in the 19th century and early 20th century American was complete chaos, with horses and wagons going every which way, making crossing the street a real danger. I doubt it was caused by Confucian ideology. Yet, it you transplanted the situation to Taiwan, many people would cite this as the cause. Maybe reckless driving is a universal trait.

[LittleBuddhaTW]

@HakkaSonic

This reminds me of the thread where someone said that Taiwanese have cornered the market on procrastination, which is complete BS. Apathy? They haven’t cornered the market on this either.

I don’t recall anyone saying that the Taiwanese have cornered the market on apathy … simply that apathy is one of the root problems in transforming Taiwan into a more civil society (I think it would be too far of a stretch to say that Taiwan is an “un-civil” society, but I think most would agree there is much room for improvement). Many people say that one of the root causes of terrorism and hatred for America stems from American arrogance and/or hegemony … but making this argument (which I only partially would agree with) doesn’t say that Americans have cornered the market on arrogance and hegemony. Anyway, I don’t think that anyone said that the Taiwanese are the most apathetic people in the world or the worst procrastinators for that matter, simply that these are two social problems. People aren’t casting as broad a net as you would like to believe …

[HakkaSonic]

@LittleBuddhaTW

I don’t think that anyone said that the Taiwanese are the most apathetic people in the world or the worst procrastinators for that matter, simply that these are two social problems.

I would argue that they are social problems almost everywhere. When I went to high school in “the west,” the teachers would complain about the apathy of students. When I was in college, student leaders would decry the apathy of the student body. And whenever there is an election, the media goes on about the apathy of the voters. If Taiwan is going to be labeled as “apathetic,” then the solution is to find some societies that are not apathetic, and see if their way of doing things could apply here.

[Tigerman]

@HakkaSonic

Tiger, I’m not sure. I remember reading in one of Bill Bryson’s books that traffic in many American cities in the 19th century and early 20th century American was complete chaos, with horses and wagons going every which way, making crossing the street a real danger. I doubt it was caused by Confucian ideology. Yet, it you transplanted the situation to Taiwan, many people would cite this as the cause. Maybe reckless driving is a universal trait.

Yes… traffic was likely a mess in US cities in the 19th and early 20th centuries. But due to the effects that a civil society and the rule of law have on a people, the US eventually developed customs and then rules and laws for traffic. Other than the most basic traffic rules (stop lights, drunk driving prohibitions, etc… ), I see little evidence of Taiwanese drivers or the government here attempting to establish other rules of the road (such as staying in your own lane and yeilding to traffic when turning onto or merging onto a larger road and yeilding willingly to pedestrians).

I suspect that the golden rule (GR) as stated by Jesus (i.e., do unto others as you would have others do unto you) at least lays a foundation for civil societies, as it tells us how to deal with people outside of our family/blood ties and other relations. I know I’m rambling a bit here… its a sign of my own confusion… but bear with me for a minute…

Contrast that with the GR as stated by Confucius (i.e., do not unto others as you would not have others do unto you). Such a fundamental rule does not, IMO, lay a foundation for a civil society, as it merely instructs one not to intentionally do harm to others. I don’t think that Taiwanese drivers are reckless intentionally… but are so due to a lack of concern for those outside of their circle of relations… the standard is lower… just don’t run anyone over intentionally… where under the GR as stated by Jesus, I must actually look out for the other guy, as I would want him to look out for me.

The difference is JC calls on us to proactively be good to others, while Confucius (as his ideology is applied in Taiwan) merely calls on us not to harm others intentionally.

OK… I’m rambling too much.

[LittleBuddhaTW]

@HakkaSonic

]I would argue that they are social problems almost everywhere. When I went to high school in “the west,” the teachers would complain about the apathy of students. When I was in college, student leaders would decry the apathy of the student body. And whenever there is an election, the media goes on about the apathy of the voters. If Taiwan is going to be labeled as “apathetic,” then the solution is to find some societies that are not apathetic, and see if their way of doing things could apply here.

Agreed. According to the Dear Leader (Kim Jong-Il), the North Korean people aren’t apathetic … they’re all diligent, hard-workers living in a socialist utopia … perhaps we should follow their example (tongue planted firmly in cheek).

[fee]

Very interesting thread.

How has Buddhism affected Taiwanese or Chinese culture?

What about Daoism?

Or does Confucianism override them both?

[LittleBuddhaTW]

@tigerman

Contrast that with the GR as stated by Confucius (i.e., do not unto others as you would not have others do unto you). Such a fundamental rule does not, IMO, lay a foundation for a civil society, as it merely instructs one not to intentionally do harm to others. I don’t think that Taiwanese drivers are reckless intentionally… but are so due to a lack of concern for those outside of their circle of relations… the standard is lower… just don’t run anyone over intentionally… where under the GR as stated by Jesus, I must actually look out for the other guy, as I would want him to look out for me.

Good point. From my perspective, historically, the West (under the influence of Judeo-Christianity) has been fundamentally more active/expansionist, and the East (under the influence of Confucianism and Buddhism) has been fundamentally more passive/isolationist. Obviously these two trends continue to this day, and will probably continue for a long time to come. Can there be a happy medium?

[HakkaSonic]

@LittleBuddhaTW

[quote=“HakkaSonic”]]I would argue that they are social problems almost everywhere. When I went to high school in “the west,” the teachers would complain about the apathy of students. When I was in college, student leaders would decry the apathy of the student body. And whenever there is an election, the media goes on about the apathy of the voters. If Taiwan is going to be labeled as “apathetic,” then the solution is to find some societies that are not apathetic, and see if their way of doing things could apply here.

Agreed. According to the Dear Leader (Kim Jong-Il), the North Korean people aren’t apathetic … they’re all diligent, hard-workers living in a socialist utopia … perhaps we should follow their example (tongue planted firmly in cheek). [/quote]

Actually, that’s a good example. Putting Taiwan into the perspective of other countries is a rarity on many forumosa.com posts. Many posters hold the island up to a much higher standard than is fair.

[Tigerman]

@LittleBuddhaTW

Can there be a happy medium?

I often think that Western people would benefit from a bit more concern for families a la Confucian ideals and that Chinese (and taiwanese) people would benefit from a bit more of a western-style civil society.

Certainly we can learn some things from each other.

[HakkaSonic]

@tigerman

[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]Can there be a happy medium?

I often think that Western people would benefit from a bit more concern for families a la Confucian ideals and that Chinese (and Taiwanese) people would benefit from a bit more of a western-style civil society.

Certainly we can learn some things from each other.[/quote]

I agree. On the one hand, I think Taiwan would be better off if the locals did things such as entering elevators only after letting those wanting to leave it get out first. On the other, I feel safer on the streets of Taiwan than in many places in the west and that is a situation I highly value. Also, things are improving here. The most glaring example is that the number of people who shout into their cell phones on the MRT is quickly falling. I remember seeing it all the time, now it happens far less often.

[Vannyel]

Isn’t the base assumption that Western societies are more ‘civil’ than Eastern ones just a little bit arrogant? Granted things here are different, which I would assume is part of the attraction for people choosing to come here. I find it amazing the number of people who move to Taiwan and then devote so much effort into trying to turn it into a more western society.

[WarMonkey]

[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]From my perspective, historically, the West (under the influence of Judeo-Christianity) has been fundamentally more active/expansionist, and the East (under the influence of Confucianism and Buddhism) has been fundamentally more passive/isolationist. Obviously these two trends continue to this day, and will probably continue for a long time to come. Can there be a happy medium?[/quote]I don’t think so LittleBuddhaTW (by the way, nice new avatar you have). Japan was quite expansionist in the 20th century. It seems that the pendulum swings back and forth between isolation and expansion- in both Japanese and Chinese history.

I think no one has yet mentioned a big difference between E and W: the group vs the individual. I don’t know if Confucianism has anything to say about this.

When your social consciousness is part of the collective, you don’t see each and every person as a unique entity. Each person’s rights then have little value. The next person you see crossing the street is just another part of the collective. ‘Why should I be inconvenienced by stopping at a red light for this pedestrian? If I don’t gain any benefit or utility from my stopping for him, why does it matter if he’s inconvenienced instead?’

Make any sense to anyone? :?

[Tigerman]

@Vannyel

Isn’t the base assumption that Western societies are more ‘civil’ than Eastern ones just a little bit arrogant?

I don’t think so. One of the major components of a civil society is respect for and utilization of the rule of law.

The Chinese themselves have a saying to explain the difference in how Western and Chinese societies approach problem resolution…

In the West we primarily rely first on law, and if no law applies, we use reason, and if reason is not helpful, we turn to relationships.

The Chinese (traditionally) have first looked to see what relationship existed that would be helpful in resolving a problem, and if no useful relationship existed, reason was employed, and if no reasonable resolution could be attained, the Chinese finally applied the law to resolve the problem.

That is what is meant by the sayings “Ching, Li, Fa” and “Fa, Li, Ching”.

[Col_Kurtz]

As an ethnic Chinese born in a predominantly Buddhist southeast Asian country, I saw the different mindsets of the ethnic Chinese and the locals (we called them Wugui, or black devils).

Every morning, you can see some elderly women giving food to a procession of monks when they come on an alms round. (Such scenes are perhaps not so common anymore because of poverty. But I could see them from my veranda every morning when I was a kid.) Most of the monks live in a local neigborhood monastery, but these women don’t necesarily know them personally.

This is something I’ve hardly seen the Chinese do – giving to strangers.

The Chinese would only socialize within their own small communities (Cantonese, Hokkien, Hakka, etc) centered around the clan associations, even though they would not avoid doing business with the natives.

My feeling is that ethics for most Chinese depend heavily on your relationship to the person you are dealing with.

I remember one of my “black devil” teachers told us he was surprised to learn about the supposedly Confucian idea that you must tell lies to shield your father from arrest when your father has committed murder. I don’t know much about Confucianism and my teacher’s understanding could be wrong. In any case, my teacher was a devout Buddhist and the idea of defining a flexible ethical rule according to your relationship with the person was inconceivable to him.

But I feel that Confucianism’s impact on Taiwan has been far lighter than that on, say, Hong Kong. Even in my native country, the Hokkien are for some reason more open to local influences than the Cantonese or Hakka or Yunnanese. Some Hokkiens adopted the local lifestyle entirely and lost their ancestral mother tongue. That normally doesn’t happen to the Cantonese etc. The parents would put enormous efforts into teaching their kids the mother tongues.

Taiwan is now under a variety of influences and civil society is developing very quickly. I find it interesting that the biggest and most successful charity groups in Taiwan are Christian and Buddhist (like Tzu Chi).

[LittleBuddhaTW]

I’m sure many folks here already know of this book, but I’ll just mention it again for those who haven’t read it yet … “The Ugly Chinaman” (醜陋的中國人) by Bo Yang is quite an interesting read, and talks exclusively about many of the issues raised here. It is quite blunt, and while there are a few places where I believe that he goes a bit too far in his criticisms of Taiwanese/Chinese (and praising Americans), all in all it’s a pretty accurate account of the “traditional value system” and how this has affected modern Chinese society. I think it’s pretty hard to get ahold of the English translation nowadays (I bought it at Eslite across from NTU about two years ago, but haven’t seen it again since), but you can still find the original Chinese version. If you’re going to read the Chinese version, though, don’t do it in public because you may get some odd stares! Some Taiwanese I’ve talked to about it read it and agreed with virtually every word, while others hated it and said that a Chinese should never criticize another Chinese in that way. Anyway, read it for yourselves, if for no other reason than it’s definitely a fun book and Bo Yang is a highly-skilled and highly-esteemed author and political commentator.

[Joesox]

@Col Kurtz

Taiwan is now under a variety of influences and civil society is developing very quickly. I find it interesting that the biggest and most successful charity groups in Taiwan are Christian and Buddhist (like Tzu Chi).

I don’t know too much about Tzu Chi but it seems that they are doing great work.

A sometimes-heard criticism of Buddhism is that while talking about compassion, we do not see Buddhist practitioners doing as much visible charitable and humanitarian work as, say, Christians.

The Ten Virtuous Deeds involve not only the avoidance of the Ten Non-Virtuous Deeds, but also their active opposites, so as well as avoiding taking life, it (other beings’ life) should also actively be cherished.

Actually, the Buddhists I know try to incorporate the Buddha’s teachings including the moral ones into their daily lives, and even if their profession is not normally one that would be seen as a particularly ‘caring’ one, try to make some difference by considering the needs of those around them and using their earnings in wise and compassionate ways.

But regarding organised humanitarian and charitable work, H.H. Dalai Lama writes;
“I am … very impressed with the practical work of Christians of all denominations through charitable organisations dedicated to health and education. There are many wonderful examples of these in India. This is one area where we can learn from our Christian brothers and sisters: it would be very useful if Buddhists could make a similar contribution to society.”

The work of Tzu Chi is undoubtedly in this spirit.

[RachelK]

It’s very nice to see so much interesting discussion on a topic that I am so interested in.

I agree with those who’ve contended that Taiwan is not a very civil society. It does have many other virtues – the streets are much safer at night, and there are far fewer homeless people than in my home country (the US). However, if a civil society (as I would define it, one in which everyone respects and therefore obeys the law) is a goal, Taiwan is far short.

And, as LittleBuddha pointed out, I would never say that apathy doesn’t exist in other countries. In fact, I think apathy is one of the biggest problems in the US, too. Maybe one of the biggest problems in any country. But it’s an especially bad problem in Taiwan.

Another interesting question is, what standards should we judge a society on? Since there aren’t really any completely universal standards, we’re always going to end up judging society X either by society Y’s standards (and thus it will almost certainly fall far short) or by society X’s standards (and it will therefore almost certainly be an examplar of good societal behavior). There are some standards that are pretty universal – don’t kill people, don’t steal, etc. – but these become very hazy as soon as we’re dealing with principles in conflict. Which is better, to protect your family or to follow the law? Anyone can judge, but there’s a good chance that their judgments will be biased. ah, it all makes me want to go back to graduate school and get an MA in ethics. (If only graduate school were an ehtical place…)

On the issue of Buddhism… Well, as I (briefly) noted, I think Buddhism is Taiwan’s real chance at Kantian universal ethics. However, Mahayana Buddhism has (I think) been so tainted by Confucianism that it would take a monumental, unified effort to get Taiwanese people to stop thinking about their parents first and everyone else second. I think the Buddhists try to nudge society in general towards love of all things, but progress is glacially slow.

And, again, I should emphasize – I really do think that Confucianism (whether as a cause or an effect) is a rational response to the situation at hand. Even the most universalist person would probably admit that loving absolutely everyone equally is impossible. Confucianism takes this conclusion a bit far, but I think it is understandable under the circumstances. I don’t agree with it, but I can see the logic.

[HakkaSonic]

@LittleBuddhaTW

I’m sure many folks here already know of this book, but I’ll just mention it again for those who haven’t read it yet … “The Ugly Chinaman” (醜陋的中國人) by Bo Yang is quite an interesting read, and talks exclusively about many of the issues raised here.

This book should have been an article. It is highly repetetive. I didn’t find it especially interesting.