Emigrating Taiwan for the sake of my children. To stay or go?

Some excellent posts in this thread.

To clear up some of the confusion about the OP’s mention of £18,000 - this is the minimum annual salary a UK citizen has to have in order to sponsor his foreign spouse to enter the country. The problem is, I think you need to have the job in the UK BEFORE applying - so that effectively means heading over separately. The other solution is to have a bunch of money in the bank (I think it might be £65,000 or so) and use that as proof of funds. And yes, this is all May’s fault - her brilliant way of reducing immigration into the UK (worked a treat as you can see).

I wrestled with similar decisions but at an earlier stage than the OP. I’m actually British but my wife and I applied for Canadian permanent residency in 2014 before they scrapped the old points-based immigration system and we got in easily. Much more easily than if I’d tried to bring the wife over to the UK. We arrived in Canada this year, and so far things are going well. I had a short-term contract position that helped with set-up costs and now we’re both interviewing for positions that if we get, will put us in a better situation financially than we were in Taiwan.

For reference, I wasn’t teaching English - I’d already seen the writing on the wall in that job and got myself a Master’s degree to jump out back in 2007. I worked for a foreign company until last year making pretty good coin for Taiwan. The wife, however, (notwithstanding that she took extended maternity leave and eventually quit) was making the usual 35~40k with no hopes of promotion (because her company only promoted people with overseas Master’s degrees). On the whole, I’ll be earning slightly less here than I was in Taiwan, but she’ll be making more. We’ll both have better long-term prospects, we’ll be able to buy a house, we’ll have pensions and our son will not be crushed by the school system in Taiwan.

A lot of us long-term expats in Taiwan are under the mistaken impression that things are cheap there. They’re not. Rent and utilities are undoubtedly cheaper, but house prices and - crucially - food, are not. Food in particular was beginning to piss me off when I was in Taiwan. The price of just about everything in the supermarket there is double the price of food in Vancouver supermarkets (yeah, you may have heard that Vancouver isn’t exactly cheap). Compared to the UK though, prices can be five times higher or more. Brocolli, blueberries, bananas, are just some of the foods (beginning with B, hmmm…) that are probably five times more expensive in Taiwan. Milk is also ridiculous there - and if you’re not buying Costco’s UHT (cheapest on the island I think) you might be getting God knows what from a local polluter. No thanks…

As for shipping furniture, it really might not be worth it. The cost can be really high and I just don’t trust those big shipping companies. We sold all our furniture using Facebook (there are LOADS of groups out there for selling stuff in Taiwan) and shipped our remaining stuff in boxes via the post office. It was cheaper and easier.

I’m still in the early establishment stages here in Canada, but I’m feeling really positive about the future. I miss Taiwan’s weather, the diving, the convenience and the laid-back lifestyle I enjoyed, but the older I get the less I think I should be living like a twenty-year old on a gap year.

I wonder if the OP has any news on his own move. I hope whatever choice you make it all works out!

Yeah, my Taiwanese GF was shocked when she saw the price of staples like bread, milk, eggs etc in Tesco last summer when we went to England. My dad even got mangoes in southern England for cheaper than Taiwan FFS! I’d much rather raise kids there or in a more rural part of the US over Taiwan, honestly. They need to grow up in a place where they can ride bikes, run through fields, experience four seasons, and have more freedom.

1 Like

Yep, am looking to move to a western country in the very near future, looked at a cost comparison website and the food costs in Taiwan for stables are crazy. Power and water are cheaper so it balances out.

Exactly, one of the primary reasons I’m looking at moving. It pains me to see my kid fighting for space in small sandpit in the local park with a million other kids when we could be lying on a pristine beach with the whole place to ourselves.

Yes because everybody lives beside an idyllic beach in the West which they get to occupy themselves on the weekends at 25C with balmly blue skies year round. Nobody has horrible commutes getting up at 6am to drive to work in the darkness.
Amazingly some folks claim there are no places for kids to ride bikes in Taiwan. I do wonder how my kids learnt how to ride bikes here then!
Everybody has cornfields in their back yards in the West where their kids can get lost in between homework free days and home made ice cream.

I literally save tens of thousands of Euro per year more than in my home country when I look at income taxes, VAT, insurance, medical costs, rent and transport costs. All on one salary. Life ain’t that tough here just need to earn more money (that IS the tough part admittedly).

Maybe SuperS54 grew up in rural Australia…

How old are you, Brianjones? My experience in Taiwan is that you can make much more in your twenties but once you reach your thirties and (gulp) forties the folks you left behind in the west will have left you behind, financially.

I hear that. Working in the West sucks if you make any kind of money what with being on the losing end of all the left-wing wealth redistribution schemes happening there. I too voted with my feet for Taiwan’s conservative, capitalist economic system and I’m never going back. Sending the wife and kids there though and buying real estate is working out well. The house we bought for them to live in has already appreciated NT$2,000,000 in one year. It’s like printing money.

Into my early 40s now. I didn’t start earning properly until about 7 years ago with some (major) blips here and there. A good decade before earning SFA before that. So I need to save and invest as much as possible. Actually I do think regularly about moving overseas with family, I’m just in the position (very much unexpectedly) that I currently earn and save a lot more here than my home country. Also my home country is small like Taiwan. If I was from the US or Canada I’d probably have moved there years ago because of industry concentration there and more opportunities, more international etc. Another reason I’d move on is just for a change really, nothing to do with Taiwan per se.

I make almost 3 times average income in my home country, with excessive taxes on high earners factored in I’d have to be in top few % salaried earners in my home country!
Far from rich but doing pretty well for a salaried guy. Basically unlikely to get such a position although not impossible (if I could do it in Taiwan I suppose…).

But anyway as I’m not overwhelmed with great options, the inlaws are here , I want my kids to learn Chinese ,my Chinese ain’t too bad for a big nose either , so Taiwan ain’t such a bad choice for us!

1 Like

Taiwan isn’t a bad choice but I think it is not the ideal place to raise kids. Some of my friends moved away from Taipei so that the kids can play more. On the weekend, kids wait in line to play on the equipment because there are so many kids at Daan park. I was there with a friend and his two kids and they were miserable at Daan park.
Then we found a smaller quiet neighborhood park and they quit fighting. What happens when the kids turn 18, too? Every situation is unique but I can understand why the OP wants his kids to grow up in place with bigger spaces and also to get to know their roots.

Taipei isn’t kid friendly at all, sure most of the parks have been ripping out the kids playgrounds or downsizing them (I hear you on Da-an that place is madness on weekends). They have far more pet shops these days in Taipei than stores selling baby or kids products!

It’s much better in places like Taichung where there are still plenty of kids. The kindergartens are massive and they have outdoor play areas. Unfortunately as we know Taipei is where most of the better paid jobs are.

Also from what I hear about kids growing up in western countries i don’t know if it’s a massive difference these days, being driven to school and picked up from school, scheduled activities, less playing on the streets, less freedom than previous generations in general. Western countries have more space and cleaner air and probably a bigger emphasis on sports though which I like.

Sounds scary. So you’re talking about schools being soul draining, right, pressure cooker education? What is it specifically that turns bad at these ages? More homework? Cramschool? My daughter is 2 now so it’ll be a while. But still…

Saw your post and wanted to chime in before the thread peters out. I’m not sure that your situation is as dire as you make it out to be. Seems to me that you are, overall, really in quite an enviable position. However, it does sound as though you’re bored with your job. Your expectation is that you should be accomplishing more professionally and you should have a higher rate of job satisfaction. This really is just a normal phenomena. It’s pretty much part and parcel of our modern industrial society. Finding a balance between personal needs and family responsibilities can be quite challenging. My belief is that as a spouse and a parent the most important task on your agenda should be to acquire enough resources so that you and your family are safe, secure and living a peaceful, happy existence. This is really quite a tall order. Somehow, seemingly despite any real effort on your part, you have attained this major achievement. You’ve accomplished the most important goal of your life and have done so while still relatively young. Really, how many people can make such a claim? Kudos to you and your wife! However, your work is not finished. Now you have to accomplish the second most important goal in your life. And this is what? The Second Goal, of course, is to preserve the peace, happiness, safety and security that you have already found. That is, preserve Goal # 1. Not an easy task as life is always throwing obstacles, challenges and temptations in our path.

Let’s set aside for a moment your children’s education. Let me simplify things by paraphrasing for you what I read : You and your family are very happy living in Taiwan. Life is good for you now but you feel that you must move to the UK so that you might have a chance at being more happy. That’s basically it, right? The problem with wanting more is that invariably we end up with less. Most importantly, does this not pose a direct threat towards accomplishing your Second Life Goal, that is, the preservation of your successful attainment of Goal #1? I’m curious, what does your wife want? What do your kids want? My guess is that they’re not on board with your plans, otherwise you would have mentioned it. So, this begs the question, are you really going to uproot them from their home, the place they love, grandparents, cousins, friends, classmates, etc., turn their world upside down just because you’re not feeling fulfilled in your job? Forgive the bluntness, but that really seems to be quite selfish of you.

I’m not sure what kind of amazing job offers you have lined up in the UK but if they are not spectacular top tier gigs, then your willingness to roll the dice and gamble away your good fortune would be a serious concern to me if I were your spouse. Sounds like your in the top 10% of all household incomes in Taiwan. Would you be starting off at anything even remotely close to that in the UK? Will you ever be able to obtain such an elevated economic status back home? If so, how many years of working like a dog will it take you? Are you a real go getter with a track record of professional success or have you just been skating by over the years? Have you done any professional development while in Taiwan such as learning Chinese, gone to graduate school or done anything else to improve your professional skill-set in the nine years that you’ve been living here? In other words, have you put in the time so that you can get yourself out of the teaching rut? If not, is it fair to ask your young children and your loving wife to sacrifice so much because of your lack of effort?

I feel that there is a real lack of introspection here. You clearly haven’t figured out how to be truly happy and content with all that you have. Perhaps you have done many things to prepare yourself for a good career in the UK but have not mentioned so in your posts. In which case, I apologize for assuming too much. However, if you have not done so, have you considered the possibility that your job(s) might suck in the UK. That your wife and kids might be miserable. That they will rarely ever get to see their loved one’s, friends and homeland again? You are really asking a lot of them. An adverse outcome could cause a major strain on your family and your relationship with your wife. I don’t mean to be all gloom and doom but nothing you’ve posted here has led me to believe that you have thought this through clearly.

You stated that your native English speaking daughter’s English is “worse than your Taiwanese students’ ”. So…, therefore, your gonna take your daughter to the UK and you are going to dump her, with her disadvantage, into an academic environment that will most likely result in a continuous struggle for her. I’m glad they “nurture” students in the UK because she’s gonna need it. Really, this doesn’t make any sense to me at all.

And then there is this doozey:

“Regarding Chinese, my wife wants the kids to learn it. I personally don’t care. I don’t really see how it’s going to benefit my kids in later life.” Wow, man. Just wow. This comment alone makes me seriously question your judgement.

“My evidence is my brother in law. He is a super smart guy, went to a “great” senior high and a “very good” university. He must have worked his nuts off at school and guess what? He still lives with his parents because he can’t afford to buy a house and food for his wife and kids. I don’t want that for my kids.”

Do you not see that the above comment is clear proof of just how fortunate you and your family have been? Your brother in law must be thinking “what is wrong with this guy?”. And yet, your still whining about your job? You’re really a funny bloke.

Your two children, no doubt, will have UK passports (unlike your struggling brother in-law). With a UK passport (can they not go to a UK university?), fluent in both Chinese, English and with a UK degree under their belt, your children will have the keys to the kingdom my friend. They will not have to struggle like their uncle. At worst, they would get a fair paying, easy gig, teaching people English. Just as their father has done for years. Or heck, maybe they will acquire an even better job like their mum’s.

Sure, schools can be very messed up in Taiwan. However, I have no doubt that a smart, grounded guy like you would be able to figure out how to help your kids mitigate the worst aspects of the Taiwanese educational system. I suggest you ponder a bit and ask yourself this: If you were content in your job, would this discussion even be happening? I seriously doubt it. I’m sure you would be doing everything you could to somehow try and make it work out for your kids. Just like so many other foreigners living in Taiwan have done. In fact, I believe I recently read that the head of the AIT was sending his kids to a local school. No panic from him about the kids education and he could have had tuition at TAS paid for by the US taxpayer.

Looks to me like your searching for reasons to be unfulfilled in your present situation. So, I’m sorry, but no, I’m not buying the whole “my kids education” thing. Stop kidding yourself. This is really all about you and “I want, I want, I want”. Don’t mean to be so harsh but that’s the way I see it. You can see for yourself here:

“I want my kids to be British.

I want to work into middle age gracefully, not clowning for kids in a dead end job.

I want my daughter to be nurtured at school.

I want my son to get into cricket, rugby and football.

I want him to feel proud to fly the nest at 18, not stay living at home forever.

I also want to live somewhere hot where I can wear a wife beater and flip flops 250 days a year, and surf in boardies not a wetsuit.

I guess I am 50:50 between my kids’ education and my own career.”

On this last one, sorry, but not seeing anything close to 50:50 here.

Free flights back home to the UK for the whole family. “Every summer my kids go to stay in the UK with my parents for a couple of months”. Shaking my head here. You really gonna give that up? Man, you just don’t know how good you have it.

I have to say, if you were my spouse and you wanted to nuke my very good career and my way above average happy life without any real justification, I would seriously be telling you that you had better get your stuff together because I sure as hell wouldn’t be entertaining any of your plans.

Perhaps you have one hell of a job lined up to justify such a risky move (If you don’t, I predict major regrets). The great job will make you happy. You will be respected and people will admire you for your career success. Your wife and kids will be grateful for all your hard work and they will think highly of you. Your wife will be fulfilled. She will be content after throwing away her very good career only to replace it with a tedious, fulfilling, minimum wage job (you did an exchange- you transferred your misery and gave it to her…how nice of you). She will also be satisfied with her struggling middle class life. The kids will adjust well. They will play rugby, soccer and be “nurtured at school”. All will work out just as you had hoped. Happier than in Taiwan. Sounds a little dreamy to me.

Again, I apologize for the harsh tone. However, for your families sake, I seriously hope that you take more time to think this over. My advice: improve your professional skills or find peace with the cruisey, well paying job you already have. If you blow it, you’ll have nobody to blame but yourself.

5 Likes

A hard hitting but well thought out post.
I do think the OP is in quite a nice position here.

The only part I strongly disagree is the idea that English teaching is a cruisy job that others in Taiwan would love to have. Anybody who has actually taught for any length of time here would not describe it as cruisy, benefits tend to be none existent , career profession doesn’t exist and the wages have been stagnant for almost two decades.

But the OP has other options , for instance to become a qualified teacher or to go into the business world.

is the schooling here really that bad? can the buxibans not be avoided at all? other than the cramming are uk schools all that much better? i can’t remember school in the uk being all that great. infact i can remember a lot of bad things about it.

1 Like

I know this is not directed at me but since I’m also seriously thinking about moving for the sake of my kids, I thought I would respond.

And just possibly, he feels part of making sure his family lives a safe, secure peaceful, happy existence involves moving. I see my kids coming home from school and having to do a couple of hours of homework a night as well as homework on the weekends as crazy. Also, later on, school becomes all about the big test and that’s basically the only thing that’s taught.

Since the title of the thread is emigrating for the sake of my children, you can’t really set that aside. That’s one of the main reasons I’m thinking of moving.

That’s a pretty big assumption. I know my kids and my wife would love to move. We’ve discussed it a lot. The question mark is really how her mother would feel about it but then again, my family is back home in Canada and they would love us to move back home.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I have a great job here. Luckily, I’ll be doing the same job if I move. Yes, I’ll have a bit less money because of taxes etc. but should still have more than enough to live on.

Sorry, but you really have no idea. Do you have kids? Would you want them to stay in Taiwan forever if you have the chance for them to experience what it’s like to live in another country? I’m looking at leaving and the main reason is my kids. I’m perfectly satisfied with my lot in life right now but I’m worried about my kids’ futures.

Yes, but I seriously doubt his kids will be in a Taiwan school until they graduate high school and then work on some Taiwanese office so it’s not a very good example.

To be honest, your post seems more like a justification of why you’re staying when other people are leaving. Or maybe you just need to convince yourself that you’re making the right decision.

1 Like

Good post with a lot of good opinions.

No offence taken.

Overseas student fees in the UK apply if you start full time education after 15. If we stay here, the kids will not get UK degrees.

Wages here are not good. A hundred G a month is nice when you’re 26 and single. Not so good when you’re 36, married with two kids. I am going to guess at somewhere between OK and terrible when you’re 55.

My wife likes the money, not the job.

My thinking on it is, you only need a good job to pay a mortgage. If you have no mortgage, as we are planning to have, the salary is less important.

I have only one friend here, It’s my wife. Acquaintances, yes. But only through circumstance.

My wife’s family is unhelpful, so no loss there either.

To sum up. Yes, I know it’s a risk, and not one to take lightly. I do want to take a chance on a better life though.

Also if it doesn’t work out for whatever reason, we can just come back here. I know I can walk into a job teaching English for $650 or $700 an hour. At least then I coukd make peace by knowing I’m here because I want to be.

Thanks for the thoughts though.

I guess you are right. It is mostly about me, and my preference for the life I previously had over the one I have now. I hope I can broaden my kids’ minds by giving them the opportunity to experience a childhood like mine, which I believe is better than the one they currently enjoy.

A year later and any updates from some of the posters on this thread? I’ve currently got a lot of the thoughts expressed in this post running through my head so it would be useful to get an update on how people are getting on.

Don’t mean to be nosy, mind.

on second viewing i think its kinda weird to want your kids to grow up ‘british’ playing rugby and cricket. is it a class thing or what? whats wrong with growing up taiwanese? and are kids in england even growing up the same anyway these days? i don’t see kids out and about around my old neighborhood like i was as a kid.

Parents glorify their past and want their kids to have the same fantasy childhood. It’s normal, I noticed this about myself as well.

I just do it for Bugs Bunny & friends cartoons and John Wayne movies on DVD now, which I watched all the time on the boob-tube as a kid

Old Warner Brothers cartoons rock!