Forced extraditions to China


#21

The CCP - shooting itself in the foot repeatedly, alienating its neighbouring countries, and the world at large.

This repeated bullyboy behaviour will and is coming back to haunt the CCP. And its only going to get worse for the old buggers in toupees. Mark my words.


#22

“china also has the right under international law to prosecute people suspected of committing crimes directed at Chinese territory.”

seems rather broad…


#23

[quote=“schwarzwald”]According to international law professor Julian Ku, China stands on pretty solid legal ground in this matter.

nytimes.com/2016/04/14/world … kenya.html?[/quote]

That article is a bit more informative than the usual howling from journalists.

Several other countries have laws to that effect, too; the basis, I think, is that if the perp were physically present and committing the same crime, he would be tried under the law of the land he was committing crimes in, which is not unreasonable. The existence of “crime by remote control” makes cross-border law enforcement a lot murkier than it used to be.

I’m no fan of China, but in this case I don’t see that there’s much to get upset about.


#24

There is a difference in the varied arguments used to justify this.

"They came from China, so we deported them back to China"
OKish, i can understand the confusion… sort of. Passport says China, anyways.

“The criminals are all Chinese. Taiwan is part of China, so the Taiwanese go back to China”.
This is a bit iffy, in all senses. China defending Taiwn as a Chinese territory as a legal precedent? No thanks.

"Most victims are Chinese. So we deported to China because they have jurisdiction"
So, if a Taiwanese commits a crime against a Panamenian, for example, we extradite to Panama? Is there a legal precedent for that?

And talking about legality, I wonder, 35 people running an illegal operation, that is a lot of people. Indeed, how do we know they all are guilty, career criminals? Interesting if it turns out they are really black sheep, in and out of the system, mafia with strong connections on top judiciary. That would be fascinating.


#25

[quote=“RickRooney”]“china also has the right under international law to prosecute people suspected of committing crimes directed at Chinese territory.”

seems rather broad…[/quote]

If the CCP cottoned onto what I have to say about them on a daily basis I might well have my accommodation downgraded to a black prison.


#26

[quote=“RickRooney”]“china also has the right under international law to prosecute people suspected of committing crimes directed at Chinese territory.”

seems rather broad…[/quote]

It is. But isn’t that precisely the justification that was deployed for various recent wars, “police actions”, and Guantanamo Bay?

I don’t think this sort of thing is nice, but the words “pot” and “kettle” do spring to mind.


#27

[quote=“finley”][quote=“RickRooney”]“china also has the right under international law to prosecute people suspected of committing crimes directed at Chinese territory.”

seems rather broad…[/quote]

It is. But isn’t that precisely the justification that was deployed for various recent wars, “police actions”, and Guantanamo Bay?

I don’t think this sort of thing is nice, but the words “pot” and “kettle” do spring to mind.[/quote]

USA has been very quiet about this matter, I wonder why.

On another note some reports claim that Taiwan’s criminal code does not classify fraud committed overseas as a felony, or any other specially defined crime, and that therefore these phone crime syndicates get off easy if they are sent back to Taiwan. The suspects who were sent back from the PI a few years back seem to have gotten off with a slap on the wrist or less.


#28

Well considering the things that china considers a crime against the state within china (anything critical of the governmemt) if the same applys outside of china to citizens of any country then surely china can do whatever it likes in any country willing to comply with its demands ( which is probably most countrys at this point… ). If this sort of thing flys we’re all fucked.


#29

Pretty much :slight_smile:

People speak about “international law” as if it’s a thing. It really isn’t. International law is whatever the guy with the biggest and bestest guns says it is. There is very little that is codified and agreed upon internationally, and even that is subject to ad-hoc jiggerypokery. As in this case.


#30

Quick summary from Taiwan Law Blog

taiwanlawblog.co/2016/04/14/sum … tion-case/


#31

OK, guys, now this is getting exciting: Malasya is joining the frey, sending 50 Taiwanese scammers to China. My :2cents:

  1. Wow, 50 caught here, 30 caught there… this must be a very lucrative business. :ponder:

  2. Timing is superb. The game is afoot…


#32

Before more posters here fall into the trap of Taiwanese collectivism and petty nationalism - that is labelling the extradition of suspected phone scammers from Kenya to China as a gross violation of Taiwan’s sovereignty - consider the following case involving the United States of America and two EU member states:

Link: http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/01/cyberbusts-security-internet-technology-security-cyberbusts.html

Furthermore, claiming jurisdiction over cases in which the offence took place abroad and involved foreign nationals is not unknown to Taiwan; refer to Article 8 of the ROC Criminal Code. Obviously Taiwan has little leverage in getting a result as quickly as China did in the case of Kenya. Nevertheless, China is not trespassing on anybody’s sovereignty but merely following a stipulation that many countries have in their criminal code. Link: http://law.moj.gov.tw/eng/LawClass/LawSearchNo.aspx?PC=C0000001&DF=&SNo=8

On a sidenote: there are so many human rights issues which Taiwanese could criticise about China. But why show the world that Taiwanese live in a collectivist bubble where suspected phone scammers become the pride of the country?


#33

I recall the British drug smuggler Howard Marks (rip) was extradited
From Spain to the US and eventually imprisoned.

I guess the point is though that Kenya practically extradited (deported) these criminals to China and thus what is there to stop China applying pressure on 3rd world/crony countries whenever they want to arrest Taiwanese people residing there?
As we know China routinely disappears its own citizens and now Hong kongers and they don’t resurface for months or years in many cases! They are a rogue regime.


#34

[quote=“Icon”]OK, guys, now this is getting exciting: Malasya is joining the frey, sending 50 Taiwanese scammers to China. My :2cents:

  1. Wow, 50 caught here, 30 caught there… this must be a very lucrative business. :ponder:

  2. Timing is superb. The game is afoot…[/quote]

Not only lucrative, but if you are lucky enough to be sent back to Taiwan almost risk-free.

From today’s China Post – chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/nati … -paves.htm

Past Fraud Case Saw Taiwan Nationals Returned
Similar events have occurred in the past — in 2010, 24 people in an international telecommunications scam group, in which most victims were Chinese, were busted in the Philippines, after scamming victims out of at least 100 million yuan, Sun said.
Fourteen were Taiwanese, and the other 10 were Chinese — all were deported to China for investigations. After five months of investigations, the 14 Taiwan nationals were extradited back to Taiwan for trial, he stated.
Two were found not guilty, while the rest were handed sentences ranging from one year and four months to three years and eight months under combined violations.
[color=#0000FF]However, no one was jailed as the case allowed them to convert imprisonment into fines, Sun stated.[/color]


#35

Yes, and it seems their numbers are growing. If they cathch a fraction of the real stuff -like in drug deals- still ther eis a significant growth from arresting less than 15 a pop to over 30 to 50 a pop. This means, in a single raid, they gather an organization chain of basically double what it was before.

Low risk, highly profitable, low marhin to set up. And plenty of pigeons.

Though I find it hard to believe Chinese would be so gullible and fearful of authorities as Taiwanese. I always found them a bit more “awake” -despiertos, avivados. Bit more world weary and distrustful, and since their law system is also shaky, a lot more knowledgeable of all its twists and turns. I am sad and dissapointed they wer victims of such despicable crime as scamming is.


#36

Not enough people in this this thread are mentioning the 1992 consensus.

The 1992 consensus.

:bow:

Continue.


#37

The Philippines did the same thing some years ago. Meh.


#38

Like just about everyone else who has been living in Taiwan for awhile, I’ve received numerous calls from these types of fraudsters. They are not my favorite group of people. A severe crackdown is long overdue, though of course I hope that it’s the guilty who are punished, not the innocent.

I noticed that the Taipei Times - which had been railing about the sovereignty issue in these cases - has toned it down. I guess they weren’t getting the type of indignant reaction from the public they had hoped for. Indeed, there are lots of people in Taiwan who have fallen victim, and would be happy to see the fraudsters imprisoned for life in China, or executed. The TT reported this story today:

Retired Teacher Defrauded


#39

Getting a hair cut yesterday in my local very green barber shop, talk of the day among the local hangerouters was the deportations to China. General consensus was “fuck 'em, they deserve it” and “let’s see how many sign up for fraud in the future after China is done with this batch”, no sympathy at all and no concerns on sovereignty, pretty much all agreed that they’d do little or no time in Taiwan so China will be a good lesson.


#40

" Twenty Taiwanese suspects sent back from Malaysia for their alleged involvement in telecommunications fraud scams in that country were set free late Wednesday after they arrived at Taiwan Taoyuan International Airport, according to the Criminal Investigation Bureau (CIB). The CIB said in a press release that after discussions with Taichung district prosecutors, it was decided that the suspects will only be notified in writing that they are embroiled in fraud schemes and were allowed to go home for “lack of solid evidence of their criminal activities.”

focustaiwan.tw/news/asoc/201604150027.aspx