Forced extraditions to China


#81

It’s common practice to seek extradition of crims who are in a different jurisdiction.

IN the USA, if a crime is committed in California and the perp is caught in Texas, they would be taken back to CAlifornia for trial.

This is not any different. These people are suspected of crimes against Chinese citizens in China. And they have been traced to Kenya. Where the local jurisdiction has also decided there is merit to Chinese claims that these people have engaged in criminal activity. Thusly the Kenyan govt has agreed to their relocation to China for trial.

All very good in the war against crime. A border or different jurisdiction should not be safe harbor for criminals.

Its not about kidnapping the Pope or Dalai Lama.

The US was more brazen to go after Bin Laden in a jurisdiction unfriendly to the USA and carry out "justice " in Uncle Sam’s eye. Of course there is/was much evidence of Bin Laden’s guilt in the twin towers destruction. We in the western world are not condemning the USA for this action.

But again this is about simple suspected crims thinking they are “safe” in another jurisdiction.
They were not and should not be “safe” from prosecution of criminal offenses.

They were suspected of criminal activity and the Kenyan govt agreed that there is merit to the charges and released them to be brought to China for trial. All good and normal.

NOt different then the USA asking for extradition of people who have commited crimes if they are in a foreign land/jurisdiction.

Taiwan is asking for what’s his name (the guy who possibly knocked the scoot driver and killed him and fled to the UK with a friends passport) back right? Is this different really to the case at hand? Not really.

The Scots have decided that claim has merit and has in fact locked up said individual. And are considering extradition.

Should Taiwan not ask for him to be brought back because he is no longer on the rock?
Should China stand back and let criminals hide in Kenya while they extort money from Chinese citizens? Because people would think this sets a “bad” precedent? IF the USA does it does it also set a "bad " precedent? Oh I forget, China is the de facto “bad guy” and therefore anything and everything it does is suspect? Right.


#82

It will be way too late by then. China won’t care whether people that cheered their thin edge of the wedge before finally decide to ‘sit up and take notice’ or not.

This case cannot be taken in isolation. (Though as Ironlady points out, even if it is, it’s still weird.)

For example, if i am delivering a sofa to your house and ask for a copy of the keys, which if you don’t mind, i’ll keep, just in case i need them some other time, then you would probably baulk. You might say, ‘Hang on, why should i give you the keys - i don’t really know you, or trust you - what’s to say you won’t come back and rob me some time when i am out?’

I might then become hysterical and start calling you an ‘arrogant,ignorant, threadbare legal layman’ and say, ‘Why are you talking about me robbing you when i am delivering your sofa!? They are completely different things!’

But will you still give me the keys?


#83

Nup. That’s not how it went down.

The Kenyan govt, who received a 600 million dollar ‘loan’ from the Chinese government just before the extradition, overrode a Kenyan High Court decision, stormed their cell, bagged 'em and tagged 'em, and bundled them off to China.

If that’s ‘due process’, then i’d hate to see the corrupt kind.


#84

It’s an unusual case, there were hundreds of fraudsters operating openly targeting Chinese citizens. That Kenyan government doesn’t operate like a developed country with rule of law is not a surprise.


#85

For those who are actually interested in the facts, the Kenyan case goes back to late 2014 when the suspected fraudsters were first arrested. It has been in the works between China and Kenya ever since, for some 16 months.

nation.co.ke/news/China-Pris … index.html


#86

I’m with dulan drift on this one.

The CCP bullies at work, disgusting creatures.


#87

[quote=“schwarzwald”]For those who are actually interested in the facts, the Kenyan case goes back to late 2014 when the suspected fraudsters were first arrested. It has been in the works between China and Kenya ever since, for some 16 months.

nation.co.ke/news/China-Pris … index.html[/quote]

I’m interested, but in this case, there is so much murkiness that it’s difficult to categorically state that something is a ‘fact’. For example, even within the same article that you posted it says the Chinese Govermnet presented a letter of “findings” which [quote]follows a series of diplomatic efforts that China has used since the suspects were arrested last month.[/quote]

While the BBC reports other ‘facts’, which also seem different from yours:

[quote]They were arrested in Kenya at the end of last year and charged with illegal entry and telecommunications fraud.
All of the Taiwanese, and some Chinese, were later acquitted.
The Taiwanese were detained when they went to a police station last week to retrieve their passports.
On Friday, eight of them were put on a plane by Chinese officials and sent to the mainland, despite a court order that would have kept them in Kenya
bbc.com/news/world-asia-36012264[/quote]

Could it be that the suspects were arrested at different times - some in 2014, some just a few months ago?

Anyway, it’s not really the point when they were arrested. The crux of the issue is this:

Is it ok for China to ignore court orders and bundle people from other countries off to face a very dubious justice system in China?

Forget about whether they are phone scammers or axe murders or political dissidents - the core question is this basic human rights principle and the precedent that it sets.


#88

Are you referring to the precedent set by the United States with covert flights from Eastern European countries to Guantanamo Bay? The difference here would be however that unlike the US government, China is putting the suspects on trial rather than lock them up indefinitely.

Your constant China-bashing while entirely discounting the legal arguments put forward by respected scholars in international media as well as people posting here who hold law degrees reflects poorly on your intellectual aptitude to separate human rights activism and politics from legal procedure.


#89

Are you referring to the precedent set by the United States with covert flights from Eastern European countries to Guantanamo Bay? The difference here would be however that unlike the US government, China is putting the suspects on trial rather than lock them up indefinitely.
[/quote]

Those were the lucky ones. Four (by some counts up to eight) US citizen were blasted to bits by their own government with drone strikes, one a 16 year old teenager “by accident”. Only one of the four was a target, considered a “threat to the US”. No due process or human rights for them.


#90

I wasn’t. But yeah, you’re right, i probably should have been. Seems we have some common ground after all

You are making a statement (again) that you have no way of verifying. Now, admittedly, i’m a humble legal layman, but wouldn’t it be folly as a lawyer to be rashly making statements that you can’t verify? Your only ‘evidence’ for that is what China says. I’m pretty sure i could put a few reliable witnesses on the stand that would cast ‘reasonable doubt’ on your linchpin argument that what China says is absolutely gospel.

Ok, good, some more common ground. I agree, you’ve pegged me. I don’t give a shit whether someone ‘holds a law degree’ or not if they are espousing silly, dangerous ideas. And correct me if I am wrong; you are seriously arguing that people don’t have a right to disagree with them? That in itself sounds like something out of Animal Farm

Yeah, wouldn’t you love it if there were nice high electrified fences separating those three things - human rights, politics, and ‘legal procedure’ – and I guess we better fence of religion while we’re at it, and the rest of us laymen rabble.
Are you serious? You cannot see any cross-over between the law, it’s enforcement, and human rights?

Well here’s one example where it does cross over. Shu Xiangxin, a Chinese human rights lawyer (guess he didn’t get your memo) was found guilty of… guess what? DEFAMATION (what a coincidence - that’s the same crime whatshisname was accusing me of for disagreeing with him – thank God we live in Taiwan!)
He was rounded up, detained, tortured, and summarily sentenced to 6 months jail and God knows what will happen to him in that time.

During his trial, his lawyers were not allowed to argue in his defence or submit files for consideration.

After the verdict was read, his daughter was singled out and beaten unconscious by an ‘unidentified man’ (reportedly the son of the corrupt local councillor that her father had been gathering evidence against) and left lying on the pavement outside the court house.

Are you still sure there’s no crossover between human rights, the law, and its enforcement?

rfa.org/english/news/china/c … 01746.html


#91

Whether or not China engages in a lot of extra legal activities. And we all know it does. EAch case should be judged on its own . This is a case of telephone fraudsters hiding out in Kenya. 600 million dollar loans do tend to move things China’s way. But China won’t act upon telephone scammers unless there is quite some evidence. Hence they are going to China for trial.

I totally agree that the Taiwanese members of the group should go along as well.

Being Taiwanese does not excuse them from illegal activities.

It’s bad that Taiwan doesn’t seem to think telephone scamming is a serious crime and often lets these people go with a small fine. Which is not right.

Makes Taiwan a haven for illegal activities. Oh wait, yes, the mafia is very active in Taiwan and many of its politicians either ARE mafioso or are connected to the mafia. And the underground economy of Taiwan is HUGE (as it is in Japan).


#92

Well, that’s the thing with law. Each case shouldn’t be judged on its own, because in that case what you have is rule of man, not rule of law.


#93

Let’s simply clarify some of the issues at hand:

Fact: China has extradited some Chinese and Taiwanese citizens back to China . People suspected of telephone fraud.

Fear: The people may be innocent, and China may use this “dangerous precedent” to extradite political persons. Something that China may actually do. And has in fact done (HK book sellers as an example).

Fact: Some of the people brought back to China are not Chinese citizens but Taiwanese citizens.

Fear: The Taiwanese may have committed no crime , whereas the PRC citizens in the same group may or may not have.

Fear: Taiwanese fear it’s citizens suspected of criminal wrong doing in other countries will be “deported” to China instead of Taiwan, even if the alleged crimes don’t involve China .

Issues:

  1. Is extradition of criminals against the Law? Against who’s law? Who’s law should be followed ?

  2. Should a country who is suspected of operating outside of the law , i.e. operating extra-judicially at times, be allowed to extradite anyone? For example China, a country that sometimes operates extra judicially, be allowed to extradite suspected telephone fraudsters for fear that they may use this same “mechanism” to extradite political prisoners ? And should America, a country that ACTUALLY does operate extra-judicially as well, be allowed to extradite people suspected of telephone fraud from another country?

  3. Should Taiwanese suspected of crimes be extradited to China, should they not be extradited to Taiwan instead?

My two cents on issue one: Yes extradition should be acceptable with due recognition of validity of the charges by the host country. Criminals should not be allowed to escape justice by hiding in another country. The host country can decide if the charges have merit and decide if it wants to extradite said persons. This is what actually usually occurs.

Issue two: China can be a bad boy. No doubt about that. But this was a case of Chinese and Taiwanese citizens residing in Kenya (for no apparent reason) committing telephone fraud against residents of China. America also will seek extradition of those escaping justice from US law. Extradition may or may not be approved, depending on the ruling of the host country.

Issue three: IF Taiwanese citizens are suspected of crimes against residents in China they should not have immunity from Chinese justice for simply being TAiwanese citizens. But conversely if the TAiwanese abroad are suspected of crimes NOT directly related to China or it’s residents they should be deported to Taiwan because they are NOT PRC citizens.

In this case the alleged crimes involved China. There is no question of this.

Taiwan has proven itself to be unwiling to prosecute telephone fraudsters when returned to Taiwan. Having given them only minor fines and no imprisonment.

One can not seriously think that China will stand idly by while its citizens (and other citizens) residing in another country do crimes against the residents of China.

Neither should it simply allow this to continue . It is within it’s rights to seek out those who have committed crimes under PRC law.

Now of course the host country can decide on it’s own the merits of the charges.
IF the host country happens to be another “wild card” country like Kenya and loans amounting to several hundred million dollars happen to be approved , leading Kenya to be warm to the idea of extraditon of telephone fraudsters (none of whom are Kenyans) . Then , oh well. There is no evidence justice is NOT being served.


#94

[quote=“tommy525”]
IF the host country happens to be another “wild card” country like Kenya and loans amounting to several hundred million dollars happen to be approved , leading Kenya to be warm to the idea of extraditon of telephone fraudsters (none of whom are Kenyans) . Then , oh well. There is no evidence justice is NOT being served.[/quote]

Malaysia deported 32 Taiwanese phone fraud suspects to China last week. Hardly a “wild card” country, that begs for loans from China.


#95

[quote=“schwarzwald”][quote=“tommy525”]
IF the host country happens to be another “wild card” country like Kenya and loans amounting to several hundred million dollars happen to be approved , leading Kenya to be warm to the idea of extraditon of telephone fraudsters (none of whom are Kenyans) . Then , oh well. There is no evidence justice is NOT being served.[/quote]

Malaysia deported 32 Taiwanese phone fraud suspects to China last week. Hardly a “wild card” country, that begs for loans from China.[/quote]

WERe these fraudsters defrauding PRC citizens or Taiwanese citizens? If the former then they should be sent to China, if the latter to Taiwan.


#96

[quote=“tommy525”][quote=“schwarzwald”][quote=“tommy525”]
IF the host country happens to be another “wild card” country like Kenya and loans amounting to several hundred million dollars happen to be approved , leading Kenya to be warm to the idea of extraditon of telephone fraudsters (none of whom are Kenyans) . Then , oh well. There is no evidence justice is NOT being served.[/quote]

Malaysia deported 32 Taiwanese phone fraud suspects to China last week. Hardly a “wild card” country, that begs for loans from China.[/quote]

WERe these fraudsters defrauding PRC citizens or Taiwanese citizens? If the former then they should be sent to China, if the latter to Taiwan.[/quote]

PRC citizens, same story as Kenya and a slew of other countries. According to the justice minister similar fraud cases are about to “explode” in 10 other countries.
"Legislator Chen Hsiu-hsia (陳秀霞) of the People First Party asked about the minister’s feelings about seeing multiple fraud cases involving Taiwanese nationals cropping up one after another, and Luo replied that she was "very, very sad."
She noted that Taiwan has won praise from Chinese tourists, who have described the people as the most beautiful aspect of the island, but she lamented that these fraudsters are showing the ugly side of Taiwan’s people.
She said with a sigh that there are many fraud cases involving Taiwanese nationals in around 10 countries, all of which are being investigated. (from focustaiwan)


#97

[quote=“schwarzwald”] She noted that Taiwan has won praise from Chinese tourists, who have described the people as the most beautiful aspect of the island, but she lamented that these fraudsters are showing the ugly side of Taiwan’s people.
She said with a sigh that there are many fraud cases involving Taiwanese nationals in around 10 countries, all of which are being investigated. (from focustaiwan)[/quote]

It’s not only phone scams. Ask around in Malaysia or Mainland China about Taiwanese businessmen: 台灣騙子


#98

[quote=“hsinhai78”][quote=“schwarzwald”] She noted that Taiwan has won praise from Chinese tourists, who have described the people as the most beautiful aspect of the island, but she lamented that these fraudsters are showing the ugly side of Taiwan’s people.
She said with a sigh that there are many fraud cases involving Taiwanese nationals in around 10 countries, all of which are being investigated. (from focustaiwan)[/quote]

It’s not only phone scams. Ask around in Malaysia or Mainland China about Taiwanese businessmen: 台灣騙子[/quote]

Or Vietnam. Or anywhere in the world, really. Taiwanese have an arrogance similar and on par with Chinese.


#99

perhaps that’s mostly the ones who consider themselves to be Chinese anyway.

they’re all ‘businessmen’ as well, so immediately behind the 8-ball when it comes to anyone else respecting them.


#100

So, once more, what offenses are heinous enough for China (or any country, actually) to get free rein of this kind, and which are not? What if you defraud 10 people? Is that enough? Or 100? What if you’re the new guy who’s just checking the place out? What if you’re the pizza delivery guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time? What if you kill someone? What if you swing at a Chinese guy, miss, and hit a Kenyan? Does China still get you? What if you bruise him on the way through?

It’s too slippery a slope, this assumption of no need for due process.[/quote]

Please allow me a chuckle or two here. I don’t honestly believe the Taiwanese were pizza delivery people delivering pizza to the Chinese telephone fraudsters in KENYA of all places.

Taiwanese (probably the Chinese as well) are not known to be very common in Kenya. Well as far as I know anyways.

China can be considered to be fairly wealthy (the govt of China) but I think even for China to send over dozens of cops and pay all the airline tickets and meals and engage in all that bally hoo, plus fork over a 600 mil loan to extradite a guy who missed a Chinese dude and hit a Kenyan or a couple of Taiwanese Pizza Delivery people. Or these phone fraudsters defrauded a total of ten folks. These telephone fraudsters have defrauded quite a few Chinese. Who apparently are particularly susceptible (for who knows what reason) to telephone fraud. They have become a social problem in China and it has come to be that the fraudsters tended to be Chinese and TAiwanese, in various different countries. They used to be based in South East Asia (are still there actually) and now have branched over to Africa (to be further away from China, thinking it’s safer).

It’s a big social problem and China has decided to go after people committing telephone fraud against its citizens, anywhere it can in the world.