Forced extraditions to China


#101

Tommy, I agree with most of what you have written and you have laid out the issues well.

However:

How do you define the word ‘crimes’ against residents in China? As we know, speaking out against the government is a heinous crime against certain residents in China. And for the sake of appearances, what’s to stop China accusing someone of ‘defamation’, for example, or actually anything, but in fact it just being a cover for getting someone they don’t like? Absolutely nothing, according to the formula you have proposed.

I don’t know the full details of the cases, do you? Thinking someone is guilty is not enough, nor should it be. There has to be evidence. When they were returned from China, did China hand over all the evidence against them? Or just dump them back and say throw them in jail like we do?

Furthermore, do you think the masterminds of these phone scams are sitting in some sweaty room in Kenya making phone calls? Or are those rounded up just small fry who will do nothing to stop the problem but are still useful in terms of firing a shot across Tsai Ing-Wen’s bow just in time for her inauguration?

No doubt there is corruption within Taiwan’s judicial, political, and law enforcement systems and it pisses me off as much as anyone – but at least here there’s a sense that democratic pressure can be brought to bear to shine a light on this darkness and turn away from it as a society – without having your daughter bashed unconscious outside a courtroom.


#102

[quote=“dulan drift”]Tommy, I agree with most of what you have written and you have laid out the issues well.

However:

How do you define the word ‘crimes’ against residents in China? As we know, speaking out against the government is a heinous crime against certain residents in China. And for the sake of appearances, what’s to stop China accusing someone of ‘defamation’, for example, or actually anything, but in fact it just being a cover for getting someone they don’t like? Absolutely nothing, according to the formula you have proposed.

I don’t know the full details of the cases, do you? Thinking someone is guilty is not enough, nor should it be. There has to be evidence. When they were returned from China, did China hand over all the evidence against them? Or just dump them back and say throw them in jail like we do?

Furthermore, do you think the masterminds of these phone scams are sitting in some sweaty room in Kenya making phone calls? Or are those rounded up just small fry who will do nothing to stop the problem but are still useful in terms of firing a shot across Tsai Ing-Wen’s bow just in time for her inauguration?

No doubt there is corruption within Taiwan’s judicial, political, and law enforcement systems and it pisses me off as much as anyone – but at least here there’s a sense that democratic pressure can be brought to bear to shine a light on this darkness and turn away from it as a society – without having your daughter bashed unconscious outside a courtroom.[/quote]

You go to a buffet, there’s a lot of dishes to consider whether or not to put on your plate. You have put a lot on your plate my friend.

China sends dozens of coppers out to pick up a group of Chinese and Taiwanese citizens suspected of telephone fraud. And we have heaped upon the plate someone’s daughter bashed unconscious outside a courtroom. Political bent against Tsai Ing Wen. Small fry versus large fry.There’s a whole lot of issues.

I suggest we concentrate on the exact issue at hand. China sent coppers to bring back to China a group of people suspected of telephone fraud.

Should China stand idly by and do nothing simply because:

  1. It makes the world at large fear greater Chinese intent? Adds to the general suspicion.
  2. It’s telephone fraud and its no biggie. Taiwan just lets them go free soon as they return to Taiwan.
  3. It makes the world at large think it’s political, this “police” action.
  4. It makes no sense, these are just Taiwanese pizza delivery folks (sorry can’t get this image out of my skull as yet) and a few small fry, let’s go after the mastermind only and only the mastermind.
  5. It makes people fear China is next going after people the PRC govt simply dislikes AND ordinary citizens of other nations going about their business, delivering pizza, washing machines and the like.
  6. It makes people fear China is hatching a plan to kidnap the Dalai Lama (and possibly the Pope and why stop there, how about the Queen of England) for trumped up charges , like say telephone fraud.
  7. It’s another way for China to defame and discredit Tsai Ing Wen , let’s start now, before she even becomes President. A great way is OBVIOUSLY to send over dozens of coppers and arrest a group of people in KENYA who happen to be Chinese and TAiwanese citizens, POSSIBLY up to no good. Then let’s charge HER with telephone fraud as well. Because she is TAiwanese and we CAN !..
  8. A girl was knocked unconscious and therefore we should not add to the general confusion about China by sending police out to get some folks we THINK and HEARD are possibly committing telephone fraud. Or perhaps we can charge these people with some other charge, like selling chodofu in cohoots with Taiwanese chodufu gangsters and let’s pick KENYA because we CAN. And because we can easily extend THEM guys a 600 million dollar loan (few questions asked).

The list goes on.

I am not particularly in favor of the govt of China. And Lord knows them folks be often up to no good doggone it. I must restate i am on my THIRD , count em, THIRD fricking IPAD, cuz those rotten Chinese Apple assemblers are too busy committing suicide at the frickin Taiwanese owned Apple factories to pay more attention to my Ipad. THIRD ONE, cuz the last two failed. FAiled ! INEXPLICABLY.

But let’s give the govt of China some credit. They are managing to feed a fifth of humanity and they have essentially abandoned the feared “communist principles” which humanity can not truly comprehend anyway.

They have a semblance of govt now, possibly slightly less corrupt then yesterday . Possibly.

China is the worlds factory. God knows they got problems up the wazoo.

But I don’t think they should be dis-allowed from going after people suspected of telephone fraud.
At this point.

Now, if these guys and gals who are now in China get the firing squad without due process (or at least what we in the Western world deem to be a fair trial) and China is sending its troops to pick up people all over the world on all sorts of trumped up charges and executing them.

I can so far still sleep at night on this one.


#103

Ironlady is making a point, and it’s a salient one:

We just don’t know exactly who these people are or what their level of involvement, if any, was. And we will never know so long as they remain in China.

Sure, you can swallow China’s explanation, hook, line, and sinker, and that’s exactly what they want you to do, but that’s fraught with danger.

What you ‘honestly believe’ from your home in Taiwan about a bunch of people cleared by the Kenyan High Court, is not relevant, actually, when deciding a particular individual’s guilt or innocence or punishment.


#104

Just so i can get this straight, are you saying there’s no possibility that these Taiwanese citizens are being used as political pawns in a ‘one-China’ propaganda exercise?


#105

Anything is possible with China. But the important thing will be to ascertain if there is more then a chance the Chinese and Taiwanese actually are fone fraudsters. It’s quite a common thing and not new. They have been caught in SE Asia already doing the same thing.

One might ask, what are these people actually doing in Kenya? How long have they been there, how are they supporting themselves. Valid questions.

Telephone fraud seems to be a Chinese/Taiwanese thing. Remember all those Nigerian scams?


#106

The whole thing looks pretty confusing to me. As stated in the first post in the thread, made by Icon, there seem to have been two arrested groups–one group arrested in late 2014, and one group arrested last month. Below are excerpts from one apparently American article (added to this post by edit), one Chinese article, and several Kenyan ones, followed by one CCTV (China) YouTube news clip and two NTV Kenya ones.

This excerpt, concerning the 2014 arrests, seems to have been at least partially taken from an interview of one of the detainees, from an article in Quartz, which is apparently an American digital publication:

[quote]Luo arrived in September, expecting to be assigned work as a driver. His group—many from the same town, Zigong, in Sichuan province—were mostly in their 20s, with only a middle-school education. They were put in a house in Runda Estate, a spacious suburb protected by guards and security fences in northeast Nairobi. Twenty-seven are from Taiwan, and one is from Thailand. According to Luo, once they arrived they were told to stay inside the house. “We weren’t doing anything. After we got here, all we did was sleep and eat. We never saw the boss,” he says.

On Dec. 2, Luo and a few others were playing poker at the house when plainclothes policemen stormed it. The police ordered them outside, and rifled through their things, seizing cellphones and laptops. Bewildered, someone in the group managed just one word in English—”Why?”—before they were pushed into a van and taken to a nearby police station.

Local media have reported that the group was running a “command center” for hacking, money laundering, and eventually attacking Kenya’s financial and communications system. But the evidence looks thin.[/quote]–Lily Kuo, “The strange case of 77 blue-collar Chinese migrants that Kenya is calling ‘cyber-hackers,’” Quartz Africa, November 20, 2015
qz.com/530427/a-new-wave-chinese … e-instead/

This Chinese newspaper article from late 2014 gives the impression that the 2014 detainees were engaged in a conventional sort of telephone fraud:

[quote]The Chinese embassy said that based on consular visits, many of the suspects are not well-educated and that many do not speak English. This may indicate that the suspects were unable to carry out the cyber crimes, which include hacking into computers. The embassy added that they may have been tasked to simply read a script over the phone to defraud victims in China.[/quote]–“China strongly supports Kenya combating criminal activities in all forms,” China Daily, December 11, 2014
chinadaily.com.cn/world/2014 … 067804.htm

But with regard to those same late-2014 arrests, a Kenyan article seems to give the impression that the first group was up to something more:

[quote]Police said the Chinese were preparing to raid the country’s communication systems.

The centre, with its modern software, is said to be capable of infiltrating bank accounts, M-Pesa accounts and even ATMs. It is suspected to be the biggest such centre in Africa.

The Chinese were discovered after a fire broke out in the rented house, killing one of them. Police had gone to the house to investigate the incident when they found the group hurdled in a room that had “sophisticated” communication gadgets. [/quote]–“77 Chinese held in cyber bust,” Daily Nation (Nairobi, Kenya), December 11, 2014
nation.co.ke/news/77-Chinese … index.html

From the Kenyan articles, so far it has been difficult for me to tell how many detainees are Taiwanese and how many are Chinese.

[quote]Of the 77 suspects arrested in Nairobi, one had a Thai passport while another had a Taiwanese travel document. The other 75 had Chinese passports.[/quote]–“Chinese cyber fraudsters ‘setting up base in Africa,’” Daily Nation, December 7, 2014
nation.co.ke/news/Chinese-cy … index.html

Regarding the 2014 incident, I got the impression that at first, Kenya was not enthusiastic about turning the detainees over to China.

[quote]Law Society of Kenya chairman Eric Mutua said Kenya should try the suspects.

“My suspicion is that the Chinese may be using this ploy to have the suspects set free. If the offence was committed in Kenya and is contrary to the laws of Kenya, then Kenya should try them,” he said.

Sources within the Kenya police told the Nation that the Chinese Government had presented “findings” that the suspects electronically siphoned over 100 million Yuan (about Sh1.5 billion) from unsuspecting Chinese citizens.[/quote]–“China pushes Kenya to hand over suspects linked to cyber fraud,” Daily Nation, January 15, 2015
nation.co.ke/news/China-Pris … index.html

The second group, arrested last month, appears to have been arrested in the same area of Nairobi as the 2014 group.

[quote]NAIROBI: Twenty two Chinese and 19 Taiwanese nationals have been arrested after being found setting up high tech communications equipment in a house in Runda, Nairobi. They also had 14 laptops and eight mobile phones.

According to the Director of Criminal Investigations Ndegwa Muhoro, the suspects arrived as tourists between January and February this year on visas that were to last for three months.

“They were at last stages of setting up the command centre similar to the one we dismantled here last year. We believe they are involved in international scheming of money where people loose cash electronically. This is a serious crime. They will take plea.” Muhoro said.[/quote]–“41 foreigners caught illegally installing powerful communications equipment in Nairobi,” Standard Digital (Nairobi, Kenya), April 8, 2016 standardmedia.co.ke/article/ … in-nairobi

This is about the 2014 arrests, from CCTV, Chinese television news:

This is also about the 2014 incident, from NTV Kenya, Kenyan television news:

This is from NTV Kenya, on last month’s arrests:

So far I haven’t been able to find a CCTV YouTube item on last month’s arrests; I’ve only been able to find CCTV items on the deportations. I’m not saying that that there are no CCTV news items on YouTube about the 2016 arrests. The arrests could be covered in the clips about the deportations, which I didn’t check.


#107

Thanks for researching and posting that info CJ - it sheds some interesting light on some of the points being debated. Especially the Quartz article.

  1. Despite claims of them defrauding billions of dollars from the Chinese and even causing people to suicide, it appears that in both cases that they hadn’t become operational. In the 2014 case they didn’t even have an internet connection!

  2. Those rounded up were just poor, illiterate fools and by no means masterminds. In fact it’s likely that many of them didn’t even know what they’d signed-up for having just answered a vaguley worded job ad.

  3. China had shown zero interest in the 2014 case for two years - not even sending a consulate official down to talk to them. We can only guess at why they did suddenly show an interest, especially in the Taiwanese citizens.

qz.com/530427/a-new-wave-chinese … e-instead/


#108

You’re welcome, dulan.


#109

I don’t buy the pour illiterate horseshit. As we know, these fraudsters, the best ones anyway, show a high level of cunning and coordination. Yes it’s mafia bosses who cream off massive profits but anyone participating in this should know what they are getting into, at least in Taiwan.

They just use slightly different stories and schemes for the different target markets. For China, as well as the standard we’ve kidnapped your grandkid routine, they use the ‘corruption crackdown’ to net a lot of people. Because corruption is so common there they don’t need any foreknowledge of schemes, they just act confident and that they will put you away for years, then an ‘option’ to pay your way out will suddenly become available. I guess in some cases the victim has already admitted guilt and given details to a scheme they were involved
In and they can use that for further leverage.


#110

Michael Turton tells it like it is

“The Truth About the Deporations of Alleged Taiwanese Scammers from Kenya to China
Most analysts interpreted the case through the lens of sovereignty issues — and missed the point entirely.”

thediplomat.com/2016/05/the-trut … -to-china/?


#111

[quote=“schwarzwald”]Michael Turton tells it like it is

“The Truth About the Deporations of Alleged Taiwanese Scammers from Kenya to China
Most analysts interpreted the case through the lens of sovereignty issues — and missed the point entirely.”

thediplomat.com/2016/05/the-trut … -to-china/?[/quote]

What is the point that we’re supposed to understand in this article? It rambles.


#112

[quote=“Dirt”][quote=“schwarzwald”]Michael Turton tells it like it is

“The Truth About the Deporations of Alleged Taiwanese Scammers from Kenya to China
Most analysts interpreted the case through the lens of sovereignty issues — and missed the point entirely.”

thediplomat.com/2016/05/the-trut … -to-china/?[/quote]

What is the point that we’re supposed to understand in this article? It rambles.[/quote]

Yeah, rambling aside, I thought it interesting that even MT, who is usually quick to criticize China, emphasizes that the Kenya incident is a matter of fighting organized crime and not a case of China being the big bad bully.


#113

[quote=“Dirt”][quote=“schwarzwald”]Michael Turton tells it like it is

“The Truth About the Deporations of Alleged Taiwanese Scammers from Kenya to China
Most analysts interpreted the case through the lens of sovereignty issues — and missed the point entirely.”

thediplomat.com/2016/05/the-trut … -to-china/?[/quote]

What is the point that we’re supposed to understand in this article? It rambles.[/quote]

Yeah, very light on substance and seems to willfully ignore the original statements that came out of China when asked about the issue of deporting Taiwanese (who had been acquitted in the High Court of Kenya) to China :

“Maintaining the One-China principle is an important prerequisite and a necessary basis for all countries in the world in developing relations with China,” said Lu Kang, a spokesman for China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Lu Kang, said.

Hard to argue that it’s just a media beat up about One China when in fact it’s China doing the beating.


#114

I thought it was the best analysis yet of what was going on in the context of the last few years in Kenya and the scale of the problem in Taiwan and China.
Light on substance it wasn’t.


#115

[quote=“headhonchoII”]I thought it was the best analysis yet of what was going on in the context of the last few years in Kenya and the scale of the problem in Taiwan and China.
Light on substance it wasn’t.[/quote]

oK, HH, so what did he say of substance, actually?

His fundamental argument is that it’s got nothing to do with One-China - given that that foundation immediately crumbles in the light of the actual fact that China itself said it was to do with One-China - then i’d be interested to know how you can construct an argument of ‘substance’ on that factually wrong basis.


#116

Somewhere in Turton’s article on his blog I read about the magnitud eof the problem. We read a few 50 here, a few 50 caught there. Thousands of people working in unison to releive their fellow men and women of their hard earned money. An interational mafia wider in scope than human or drug trafficking, and harder to catch as they leave a paperless trail. Thta so many thousands engage in this “activity” raises lots of questioons: who is their patron? who is turning a blind eye/abeiting? are there so little opportunities here in Taiwan that this is a massive employer? Is everyone really an active, informed, consensual participant or as the article implies, is it actually open hiring using them as bait to be caught and distract from te real operation? Furthermore, everyone knows someone who has been cheated, everyone’s families have been affected. Yes by the number of perpetrators, in almost everyon’es family there is also a scammer.

Recently, there was a murder in Wulai related to scams. two scammers had an argument, one sent the guys over to take care of it, they took the giuy over to Wulai and pummeled him with baseball bats but before their escape, they were actually caught by the police, who thought there was a traffic accident. Otherwise… Anyways, all the people involved were hardly in their 20s, from 18 to 22 years old. makes you wonder Whiskey Tango Hotel is wrong with this generation. Either brainless strawberries or this. Not good and getting worse.

Nevertheless, I hold my judgement as to whether all the ones grabbed by China were all scammers, and whether they would have a fair trial. being China, who knows? It would be the same if the ol country had grabbed them. It could be for damage or protection, could swing both ways. A to their legal right to do so, why do they respect the Law now when they have sidestepped it so many times before?


#117

That is an excellent and very pertinent commentary by my friend Michael Turton. There’s not a single word of it that I’d disagree with or that is open to contradiction by anyone conversant with the actual facts, and it matches my own posts on every point. I fully agree with you, HH, about its solid substance.

When even so ardent a China-basher as MT reads and explains the black-and-white reality of the situation so clearly and correctly, there is truly no room at all for even the most hysterical anti-China McCarthyist to continue clinging to straws of protestation against it.

As MT informs us: “China wanted to try the suspects on fraud charges, while the Kenya government tried them only on telecoms equipment and business violations.” That puts to bed the ill-informed assertion that a Kenyan court had already acquitted the accused of the telecom fraud charges that they were extradited to China to stand trial for.

These telecom scammer criminals are a blight on society, and the international community needs to collaborate to crack down on their activities as firmly as possible. Shame on Taiwan for its failure to do so in the past, and well done China for doing it so positively now. It’s astounding that there’s anyone who would actually speak up for them, label them as victims of political persecution, and argue against their being brought to justice.


#118

This video, apparently a copy of part or all of a CCTV-13 broadcast, purports to show detainees pleading guilty (I’m not sure if “pleading guilty” is the right phrase–the Chinese expression is 認罪) and repenting (the Chinese is 懺悔):

This looks like a somewhat similar video copy, apparently uploaded by Duowei News, which, according to Wikipedia, is based in New York:


#119

Omniloquacious wrote:[quote]When… MY FRIEND, Michael Turton reads and EXPLAINS the BLACK-AND-WHITE REALITY of the situation so CLEARLY and CORRECTLY, there is TRULY no room at all for even the most HYSTERICAL anti-China MCCARTHYIST (!) to continue CLINGING to STRAWS of PROTESTATION against it.[/quote]

Well, I’m clinging on for dear life, O! So let’s go to court, shall we? Just for fun!

You: MY FRIEND, Michael Turton says (both these cases have got NOTHING TO DO with ONE-CHINA)…and There’s not a SINGLE WORD of it that I’d DISAGREE with or that is OPEN TO CONTRADICTION by ANYONE, and ANYONE (INCLUDING YOU, YOUR HONOUR), who would actually SPEAK UP for (the deportees) displays an EXTRAOADINARY DEFICIENCY of understanding, and BREATHTAKING ARROGANCE! Can you UNDERSTAND?! Is this OVER your HEAD, your honour, or are you still able to FOLLOW it?!! I’ll try to keep it as SIMPLE as possible!!! Is it DUMBED down enough for your (level of) IGNORANCE…?!!!
YOU’RE WELCOME!!! (delivered with increasingly shrill voice)

Ignorant Layman: Objection your Honour: Pointless waffle?

Judge: Sustained. Do you have anything to present against the statement that One-China manoeuvring had nothing to do with this case in Kenya

Ignorant Layman: Yes, your Honour, I’d like to call a witness to the stand: China. (gasps from the gallery)

You: OBJECTION!!! CHINA is NOT qualified to state what it SAID!!!

Judge: Overruled.

China: “Countries which follow the ‘one China’ principle are worthy of approval… The one-China policy is an important pre-condition for bilateral relations with China… We commend Kenya for its upholding of this policy.”

You: objection, your honour… uhmm … how do we know this isn’t one of those forced confessions…?


#120

Turton says we’re missing the point. What is the point?