I agree with the spirit of Ron Paul and libertarians on this, but what they don’t usually address is how to deal with states that make discriminatory laws. For example, I often here self-proclaimed libertarians become furious when a judge strikes down a law as unconstitutional. Just in a recent example, there have been two court cases each striking down a marriage amendment and the DADT policy. To me, that is the best way to deal with laws that are discriminatory and that is the purpose of the judiciary. These decisions did not create law like legislation does, but struck down laws. Most of the Tea Party people, who describe themselves as libertarians, become furious about such decsions. Ron Paul is much better, but I have never heard him give solutions for how laws such as this should be dealt with. Does he agree that it’s the job of the judiciary? He will talk one side of the issue, saying the government shouldn’t be involved in marriage, but then never talks about how to deal with the laws already on the books that are discriminatory. I like the article you posted by Miron, but I find that candidates who discuss libertarianism and knowledgeable people/scholars usually have very different agendas-Miron doesn’t have a conservative force he needs to win over for votes. Does anyone believe Ron Paul is going to stand up and say that he supports a system that does not use the law to discriminate against gay people? He always stops short…and don’t get me started on his hypocritical abortion stance.
Again I completely agree, and I don’t want them pushing laws that I agree with, as I don’t think it’s the best way to deal with discriminatory laws. But where are the candidates who will come out and say, “DADT violates the principles of equality that this country was founded upon” or “Marriage amendments designed with the sole purpose of making one group inferior violate the founding principles of this country.”
I have said this before, but I think it’s worth repeating: How many votes would a candidate who wants to strip all marriage laws from the books get? Can you imagine? Any candidate who wants to take away the tax breaks and strip the government of it’s power to make people feel special will lose-the Christian fringe would jump all over it. This is why, I am guessing, you will never hear Ron or Rand Paul take a strong stance on this issue.
Anything the government does is “government intervention” by its very nature. Murder illegal? Government intervention. Traffic lights at intersections? Government intervention. Border control? Government intervention.
One problem I have with libertarians is that while they recognize there are problems (e.g. discrimination, unequal rights), they don’t want to government to actually do anything about them.
Chris: You’re using a definition of libertarianism that I have never heard. Libertarians do not oppose government intervention on every level, but use a test whereby no law should inhibit the freedom of the people and that government use of power should be the last, not the first, course of action. To stay on topic, if the government were to stop passing laws that defined marriage, there would be no problem. If they adopted an immigration policy that did not use marriage as a criteria, but used a system whereby people were allowed to associate with whomever they wanted, there would be no problem. Why can’t I sponsor anyone I choose for citizenship? Why do I have to be married to someone to do so? Even straight people may feel as though they MUST marry someone to live with that person. It’s ridiculous.
If gay people want to get married, we can. We can go to whatever ‘church’ that will marry us and introduce ourselves as married. We don’t need government approval for this. The immigration laws certainly need to change, but if government were to stay out of marriage, we would be much further along.
[quote=“Chris”]Anything the government does is “government intervention” by its very nature. Murder illegal? Government intervention. Traffic lights at intersections? Government intervention. Border control? Government intervention.
One problem I have with libertarians is that while they recognize there are problems (e.g. discrimination, unequal rights), they don’t want to government to actually do anything about them.[/quote]
I realize this is off topic, but I feel obliged to point out these blatant inaccuracies. Both the health care and financial reform bills made their way to open debate in the House and Senate via bipartisan committees. There were literally hundreds of Republican suggestions incorporated into both bills; what became law was the result of compromise, despite near uniform Republican opposition during the final votes.
I realize this is off topic, but I feel obliged to point out these blatant inaccuracies. Both the health care and financial reform bills made their way to open debate in the House and Senate via bipartisan committees. There were literally hundreds of Republican suggestions incorporated into both bills; what became law was the result of compromise, despite near uniform Republican opposition during the final votes.[/quote]
An unwillingness on the part of Democrats to compromise was indeed what killed repeal of DADT which was the context of my statement and is the topic of this thread:
[quote]
I repeat: a civil rights proposal with 62 percent Republican support in the country would have been a no-brainer if the president had any guts, the Human Rights Campaign had any competence, and the Democrats had even the slightest integrity.[/quote]
– Andrew Sullivan
[quote=“politbureau”]An unwillingness on the part of Democrats to compromise was indeed what killed repeal of DADT which was the context of my statement and is the topic of this thread:
[/quote]
I think better stated, it was Harry Reid, not the democrats as a whole. I have a feeling most democrats roll their eyes at most of what he does. If he is reelected (probable) and the dems keep the senate (likely), I hope they replace him with someone a bit more capable (not likely).
I’m not sure there is much room for compromise here. If a far majority of republicans support repealing it, there is no need for compromise. My understanding was that because he didn’t allow for adequate debate on the bill, it was killed. He also didn’t allow for any amendments and he attached it to defense spending-all moves that pissed off people.
No one should compromise on this though. Vote straight up-repeal it or don’t, and let’s not water it down with amendments. And I think it’s best to wait until they have the chairman of the joint chiefs and Gates fully on board after they release their report in Dec-and in all likelihood, they will be 100% on board. This wasn’t dems as a whole, it was Reid’s incompetence.
What a tragic story. Kind of related to the topic in terms of homophobia. I’m not sure how I feel about his prick of a roomate. Such a nasty, stupid thing to do - but he is only 18. Even so, I hope he gets whatever punishment the law is able to dish out (looks like a fine at best).
When I saw the title of this video, “Gays like alcoholics”, I read it totally differently. Sure, some gays might like alcoholics…some are even alcoholics themselves, lol. Never in my life would I have thought he was saying gay people are similar to alcoholics. I guess what he was trying to say is that it is a combination of nature and nurture? I dunno. I don’t remember deciding to be gay. They should have asked him at what point, given that we all have the choice, he decided to be straight. I wonder how many gay fantasies he had before he went with women?
When I saw the title of this video, “Gays like alcoholics”, I read it totally differently. Sure, some gays might like alcoholics…some are even alcoholics themselves, lol. Never in my life would I have thought he was saying gay people are similar to alcoholics. I guess what he was trying to say is that it is a combination of nature and nurture? I dunno. I don’t remember deciding to be gay. They should have asked him at what point, given that we all have the choice, he decided to be straight. I wonder how many gay fantasies he had before he went with women?
[/quote]
When I saw the title of this video, “Gays like alcoholics”, I read it totally differently. Sure, some gays might like alcoholics…some are even alcoholics themselves, lol. Never in my life would I have thought he was saying gay people are similar to alcoholics. I guess what he was trying to say is that it is a combination of nature and nurture? I dunno. I don’t remember deciding to be gay. They should have asked him at what point, given that we all have the choice, he decided to be straight. I wonder how many gay fantasies he had before he went with women?
[/quote]
And we don’t remember deciding to be drunks.[/quote] Are you sure? I remember spending my youth dreaming of the cool feeling only a toilet bowel can provide as it presses against my face, the warm comfort of dry heaves, and meaningless conversation with people I didn’t even like in smoke filled bars. Alas, my dreams never came true.
When I saw the title of this video, “Gays like alcoholics”, I read it totally differently. Sure, some gays might like alcoholics…some are even alcoholics themselves, lol. Never in my life would I have thought he was saying gay people are similar to alcoholics. I guess what he was trying to say is that it is a combination of nature and nurture? I dunno. I don’t remember deciding to be gay. They should have asked him at what point, given that we all have the choice, he decided to be straight. I wonder how many gay fantasies he had before he went with women?
[/quote]
And we don’t remember deciding to be drunks.[/quote] Are you sure? I remember spending my youth dreaming of the cool feeling only a toilet bowel can provide as it presses against my face, the warm comfort of dry heaves, and meaningless conversation with people I didn’t even like in smoke filled bars. Alas, my dreams never came true.[/quote]
You make it sound so appealing, I can tell you, it ain’t all hearts and roses.
See, now, myself, in my youth, I never dreamed of putting a-
“See, there were these crazy people who thought we should keep black people as slaves. We took care of them.”
“See, there were these crazy people who thought black people shouldn’t use the same water fountains as white people. We took care of them.”
“See, there were these crazy people who thought gay people shouldn’t get married. We took care of them.”
There always has to be batshit crazy before there can be sanity.
“See, there were these crazy people who thought we should keep black people as slaves. We took care of them.”
“See, there were these crazy people who thought black people shouldn’t use the same water fountains as white people. We took care of them.”
“See, there were these crazy people who thought gay people shouldn’t get married. We took care of them.”
There always has to be batshit crazy before there can be sanity.[/quote]
That’s what Chris Rock says when people ask him about progress, he says, like
“Fuck NO there aint been no progress, just white people is less CRAZY than they was before. Fuckin Crazy to Not So Fuckin Crazy ain’t PROgress…
Progress starts when they ain’t Crazy at motherfuckin ALL.”
* Democrats fought to expand slavery while Republicans fought to end it.
* Democrats passed those discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws.
* Democrats supported and passed the Missouri Compromise to protect slavery.
* Democrats supported and passed the Kansas Nebraska Act to expand slavery.
* Democrats supported and backed the Dred Scott Decision.
* Democrats opposed educating blacks and murdered our teachers.
* Democrats fought against anti-lynching laws.
* Democrat Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, is well known for having been a “Kleagle” in the Ku Klux Klan.
* Democrat Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, personally filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for 14 straight hours to keep it from passage.
* Democrats passed the Repeal Act of 1894 that overturned civil right laws enacted by Republicans.
* Democrats declared that they would rather vote for a “yellow dog” than vote for a Republican, because the Republican Party was known as the party for blacks.
* Democrat President Woodrow Wilson, reintroduced segregation throughout the federal government immediately upon taking office in 1913.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s first appointment to the Supreme Court was a life member of the Ku Klux Klan, Sen. Hugo Black, Democrat of Alabama.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s choice for vice president in 1944 was Harry Truman, who had joined the Ku Klux Klan in Kansas City in 1922.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt resisted Republican efforts to pass a federal law against lynching.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt opposed integration of the armed forces.
* Democrat Senators Sam Ervin, Albert Gore, Sr. and Robert Byrd were the chief opponents of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
* Democrats supported and backed Judge John Ferguson in the case of Plessy v Ferguson.
* Democrats supported the School Board of Topeka Kansas in the case of Brown v The Board of Education of Topeka Kansas.
* Democrat public safety commissioner Eugene “Bull” Connor, in Birmingham, Ala., unleashed vicious dogs and turned fire hoses on black civil rights demonstrators.
* Democrats were who Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the other protesters were fighting.
* Democrat Georgia Governor Lester Maddox “brandished an ax hammer to prevent blacks from patronizing his restaurant.
* Democrat Governor George Wallace stood in front of the Alabama schoolhouse in 1963, declaring there would be segregation forever.
* Democrat Arkansas Governor Faubus tried to prevent desegregation of Little Rock public schools.
* Democrat Senator John F. Kennedy voted against the 1957 Civil rights Act.
* Democrat President John F. Kennedy opposed the 1963 March on Washington by Dr. King.
* Democrat President John F. Kennedy, had Dr. King wiretapped and investigated by the FBI.
* Democrat President Bill Clinton’s mentor was U.S. Senator J. William Fulbright, an Arkansas Democrat and a supporter of racial segregation.
* Democrat President Bill Clinton interned for J. William Fulbright in 1966-67.
* Democrat Senator J. William Fulbright signed the Southern Manifesto opposing the Supreme Court’s 1954 Brown vs. Board of Education decision.
* Democrat Senator J. William Fulbright joined with the Dixiecrats in filibustering the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1964.
* Democrat Senator J. William Fulbright voted against the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
* Democrats fought to expand slavery while Republicans fought to end it.
* Democrats passed those discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws.
* Democrats supported and passed the Missouri Compromise to protect slavery.
* Democrats supported and passed the Kansas Nebraska Act to expand slavery.
* Democrats supported and backed the Dred Scott Decision.
* Democrats opposed educating blacks and murdered our teachers.
* Democrats fought against anti-lynching laws.
* Democrat Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, is well known for having been a “Kleagle” in the Ku Klux Klan.
* Democrat Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, personally filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for 14 straight hours to keep it from passage.
* Democrats passed the Repeal Act of 1894 that overturned civil right laws enacted by Republicans.
* Democrats declared that they would rather vote for a “yellow dog” than vote for a Republican, because the Republican Party was known as the party for blacks.
* Democrat President Woodrow Wilson, reintroduced segregation throughout the federal government immediately upon taking office in 1913.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s first appointment to the Supreme Court was a life member of the Ku Klux Klan, Sen. Hugo Black, Democrat of Alabama.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s choice for vice president in 1944 was Harry Truman, who had joined the Ku Klux Klan in Kansas City in 1922.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt resisted Republican efforts to pass a federal law against lynching.
* Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt opposed integration of the armed forces.
* Democrat Senators Sam Ervin, Albert Gore, Sr. and Robert Byrd were the chief opponents of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
* Democrats supported and backed Judge John Ferguson in the case of Plessy v Ferguson.
* Democrats supported the School Board of Topeka Kansas in the case of Brown v The Board of Education of Topeka Kansas.
* Democrat public safety commissioner Eugene “Bull” Connor, in Birmingham, Ala., unleashed vicious dogs and turned fire hoses on black civil rights demonstrators.
* Democrats were who Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the other protesters were fighting.
* Democrat Georgia Governor Lester Maddox “brandished an ax hammer to prevent blacks from patronizing his restaurant.
* Democrat Governor George Wallace stood in front of the Alabama schoolhouse in 1963, declaring there would be segregation forever.
* Democrat Arkansas Governor Faubus tried to prevent desegregation of Little Rock public schools.
* Democrat Senator John F. Kennedy voted against the 1957 Civil rights Act.
* Democrat President John F. Kennedy opposed the 1963 March on Washington by Dr. King.
* Democrat President John F. Kennedy, had Dr. King wiretapped and investigated by the FBI.
* Democrat President Bill Clinton’s mentor was U.S. Senator J. William Fulbright, an Arkansas Democrat and a supporter of racial segregation.
* Democrat President Bill Clinton interned for J. William Fulbright in 1966-67.
* Democrat Senator J. William Fulbright signed the Southern Manifesto opposing the Supreme Court’s 1954 Brown vs. Board of Education decision.
* Democrat Senator J. William Fulbright joined with the Dixiecrats in filibustering the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1964.
* Democrat Senator J. William Fulbright voted against the 1965 Voting Rights Act.[/quote]
[quote=“the chief”][quote=“TaipeiD”]Is Chris Rock a Republican?
[/quote]
Uh, no, he’s a black man, dingus. :loco:[/quote]
republicans fought to end slavery, while democrats died to defend it.
Martin Luther King was a Republican not a Democrat, Mr. Holmes.
“It should come as no surprise that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. In that era, almost all black Americans were Republicans. Why? From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. And as one pundit so succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S’s: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.” humanevents.com/article.php?id=16500
[quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“the chief”][quote=“TaipeiD”]Is Chris Rock a Republican?
[/quote]
Uh, no, he’s a black man, dingus. :loco:[/quote]
republicans fought to end slavery, while democrats died to defend it.
Martin Luther King was a Republican not a Democrat, Mr. Holmes.[/quote]
I just quoted Chris Rock, Forrest, I got no part with either your gun rack totin’, clinic explodin’, sister impregnatin’, Intelligent Design promotin’, Dennis Fucking Miller laughin’ at Weeniepublicans OR your triple flushin’, Prius boastin’ about, religion despisin’, Hamas blowjobbin’, man hatin’, soy fuckin bacon eatin’ Democrappers.
The whole lot of you yahoos could disappear up each other’s fructose grown, Charmin pampered backsides and I wouldn’t miss you for a second.
Your fuckin country, your fuckin problem.
