[quote=“silas”]I’m impressed, Abacus. Do you honestly think I could be in this position for so many years without a developed understanding of the sources of electricity to the local grid mix? Perhaps I shouldn’t be too surprised, but it’s obvious and central to the matter of EVs, something to be addressed at the very start. We can take a step back to review.
And again note, we’re discussing a type of electric scooter which is quite distinct from what the market has provided to date, from ~2008 until now, with greater range/performance benefits per battery swap effort. The thread title states this, but continuing to assert that battery habits based upon experience with a 1st gen e-moving type scooter would also apply to next-gen Gogoro type smartscooters is problematic. A premature assessment in any event.
I’ll address your points, despite the condescension, later.[/quote]
At every turn I have been unimpressed with your knowledge. You continue to inflate stats at every chance to make your cause look better. You also have shown zero understanding of the Taiwanese consumer which is a vital point to making any product successful. It doesn’t matter what generation the e-scooter is. Your customer is not going to carry batteries up and stairs/elevators/inandout of buildings. Employers are not going to be on board with charging them on the company dime. And ironically if you designed a battery to be hand carried like this then it would like the Gogoro batteries that you have a problem. The irony.
I don’t care what position you are in. If you use terrible logic then I will let you know it. If you completely ignore the customers wants then I’m going to let you know that you have a limited market to sell to. I actually find it disappointing that you are in any type of position concerning the future of e-scooters and the benefits of them. I want them to work but as long as manufacturers continue to think within the current charge at home model they will only be used by a small number of Taiwanese and we won’t see the benefit.
Indian guy who frequents the same coffee shop as me has an e-bike, but I’ve never seen him use it as such. Its always in bicycle mode, with the battery detached.
Since the (Li-ion) battery apparently fits in the water-bottle holder, and gives about 30K range, I doubt weight/hassle is the issue.
Could be because the battery apparently costs about 8k, and there’s no way it can be secured in the frame.
Dunno what the whole thing costs, but, given that fairly heavy/low tech bicycles are free if you work at a University, I’d say its probably too much.
[quote=“Abacus”]If any part of your plan is to have consumers carrying around batteries or employers at all on board with employees charging batteries in the office then you do not know your consumer at all.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t expect employers to be “on board” at all. I’d hope my employer would be clueless, altogether, which could best be achieved by keeping quiet about it.
If you don’t have your own office, or a desk you could hide the charger under, this might not be achievable.
[quote=“Ducked”]Indian guy who frequents the same coffee shop as me has an e-bike, but I’ve never seen him use it as such. Its always in bicycle mode, with the battery detached.
Since the (Li-ion) battery apparently fits in the water-bottle holder, and gives about 30K range, I doubt weight/hassle is the issue.
Could be because the battery apparently costs about 8k, and there’s no way it can be secured in the frame.
Dunno what the whole thing costs, but, given that fairly heavy/low tech bicycles are free if you work at a University, I’d say its probably too much.[/quote]
E-bicycle or e-scooter is not the same … in Belgium lots of older, retired people buy e-bicylcles and not cheap … they are happily speeding the roads now. The government is even going to take measure on speeding e-bicycles, max. 25Km/h. But, yes, charging is easier in Belgium, almost everyone lives in a lowrise or house, has a garage with power outlets, and even the batteries or not that heavy. Most complaints and breakdowns, the gear system.
[quote=“Ducked”][quote=“Abacus”]If any part of your plan is to have consumers carrying around batteries or employers at all on board with employees charging batteries in the office then you do not know your consumer at all.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t expect employers to be “on board” at all. I’d hope my employer would be clueless, altogether, which could best be achieved by keeping quiet about it.
If you don’t have your own office, or a desk you could hide the charger under, this might not be achievable.[/quote]
Initially in some cases, this will likely be the case. Regulation will become necessary - and the sooner the better, as along with it will come the understanding that this is an accepted and increasingly popular alternative to filling up and polluting. Employees reimbursing the employer for their electricity usage (and at the employer’s rate, which in many cases may be a lower tariff than at home) can begin to become a standard practice.
Abacus - requesting that you detail all particular instances of inflated claims that you clearly have in mind so they may be addressed one by one. Citing only one that you’re critical of and generalizing from there is a tad…slanderous? Make an effort to be a bit more thorough, please.
[quote=“Ducked”]Indian guy who frequents the same coffee shop as me has an e-bike, but I’ve never seen him use it as such. Its always in bicycle mode, with the battery detached.
Since the (Li-ion) battery apparently fits in the water-bottle holder, and gives about 30K range, I doubt weight/hassle is the issue.
Could be because the battery apparently costs about 8k, and there’s no way it can be secured in the frame.
Dunno what the whole thing costs, but, given that fairly heavy/low tech bicycles are free if you work at a University, I’d say its probably too much.[/quote]
The batteries lose capacity
over time, then maybe some won’t pay for replacement. Another reason could be you don’t need the battery for a lot of trips so it just adds weight.
[quote=“headhonchoII”][quote=“Ducked”]Indian guy who frequents the same coffee shop as me has an e-bike, but I’ve never seen him use it as such. Its always in bicycle mode, with the battery detached.
Since the (Li-ion) battery apparently fits in the water-bottle holder, and gives about 30K range, I doubt weight/hassle is the issue.
Could be because the battery apparently costs about 8k, and there’s no way it can be secured in the frame.
Dunno what the whole thing costs, but, given that fairly heavy/low tech bicycles are free if you work at a University, I’d say its probably too much.[/quote]
The batteries lose capacity
over time, then maybe some won’t pay for replacement. Another reason could be you don’t need the battery for a lot of trips so it just adds weight.[/quote]
Yes, particularly the most portable small batteries pushed to extremes of 100% down to 0% state of charge lose their capacity. A larger battery kept between aprx. 20% to 80% state of charge (typically managed by software) can provide a dramatically extended service life over one which is 40% lighter with 40% less capacity, and continually maxed out. This belongs to the major pitfalls of high portability designs. An obvious trade-off in the larger module is higher initial cost, however, over the life of the vehicle, the extended life of a properly managed larger battery represents a cost savings.
[quote=“silas”][quote=“Ducked”][quote=“Abacus”]If any part of your plan is to have consumers carrying around batteries or employers at all on board with employees charging batteries in the office then you do not know your consumer at all.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t expect employers to be “on board” at all. I’d hope my employer would be clueless, altogether, which could best be achieved by keeping quiet about it.
If you don’t have your own office, or a desk you could hide the charger under, this might not be achievable.[/quote]
Initially in some cases, this will likely be the case. Regulation will become necessary - and the sooner the better, as along with it will come the understanding that this is an accepted an increasingly popular alternative to filling up and polluting. Employees reimbursing the employer for their electricity usage (and at the employer’s rate, which in many cases may be a lower tariff than at home) can begin to become a standard practice.
Abacus - requesting that you detail all particular instances of inflated claims that you clearly have in mind so they may be addressed one by one. Citing only one that you’re critical of and generalizing from there is a tad…slanderous? Make an effort to be a bit more thorough, please.[/quote]
You have also claimed that inverter AC’s save 40-50% (every website says 20-30%) based on you owning one for less than a year. That’s a sample size issue with your statistics. So far you are 2/2 as far as inflating savings and I don’t consider that to be slanderous.
Now if I was to invest (I wouldn’t though) in one of these e-scooter businesses it would be a charge at home model. Even if those that can charge at home is a small minority we are still talking about millions of people within Taiwan and potentially 100’s of millions outside of Taiwan. There are more than enough potential customers that the business could be nicely profitable. the reason that I would not invest in a Gogoro model is that I would want nothing to with investing in the charging network myself. This is an investment that could go disastrously wrong although there is good economic upside in the charging business if it is successful. As a customer that simply doesn’t have access to at home charging this is more interesting and I’m not responsible for the worst part of an e-scooter (the battery).
This is also the model that can actually sell enough e-scooters within Taiwan to get the effect that you desire. I would consider the charge at home model a success if they can replace 5% of the petrol mileage driven with e-scooter mileage. That’s nice but it’s not a hugely significant change in pollution levels. The Gogoro model can reach so many more customers that it could actually significantly change things.
Would I buy either one of these? Possibly as a 2nd scooter for a girlfriend or wife but not as my primary transport. My monthly distribution of daily mileage. 20 days - 0km / 8 days - 1-10km / 2 days 50-200km
[quote=“Hamletintaiwan”][quote=“monkey”]In Taiwan, your scooter isn’t cool unless it can wake up babies.
If the Gogoro can be modified to emit a[color=#800000] loud farting noise[/color], it might just catch on here.[/quote]
Why would anyone need a scooter for achieving that?[/quote]
Beans usually do the deed. But making it “au naturel” is risky, specially after eating some of the spicy foods they have around here. The phrase “fire in the hole” comes to mind.
[quote=“zender”] . . .I spent some days on an electric scooter in Siem Reap recently. Those scooters were rented out for $10 per 24 hours and were getting popular as foreigners aren’t allowed to rent motorcycles in
SR. They were slow and would go for about 50 kilometers if you kept the speed close to 20 kilometers per hour . If you topped it out at close to 35 kph, the range went way down. . . .
I will go to Bagan in March and try their e-scooters (rented at $8 per day).
[/quote]
I don’t usually quote myself, but I wanted to add that I just came back from 4 days of ebike riding in Bagan. They were $7 per day or $3 per “half day”, and they’re much more common in Bagan than in Siem Riep. Whereas there were only about 20 vehicles available in SR, there were hundreds? in Bagan.
I heard some first-time users comment on how easy they were to get used to. I had a flat tire that was repaired for NT$15, but otherwise, everything went well.
At first I thought the battery model was a bad idea, but I’ve come round. Makes a lot of sense. They describe it as similar to a mobile phone subscription service. That’s another way of looking at it.
I doubt they’ll be cheap. I predict 60-80k. They’re kind of top of the line.
I noticed a shiny new Gogoro showroom near the Vieshow cinema the other day, but didn’t have a chance to pop in. It looks the business. I must say, Taiwanese design has changed out of all recognition since I first got here. Kudos to the young guys who are making this stuff happen.
If they actually start building some charging stations in co-operation with a well-established company, I’d like to get one.
[quote=“finley”]I noticed a shiny new Gogoro showroom near the Vieshow cinema the other day, but didn’t have a chance to pop in. It looks the business. I must say, Taiwanese design has changed out of all recognition since I first got here. Kudos to the young guys who are making this stuff happen.
If they actually start building some charging stations in co-operation with a well-established company, I’d like to get one.[/quote]
My supervisor was there in the weekend. She said they seem expensive. She didn’t ask, but it seemed they were telling prices to people individually.
. If you topped it out at close to 35 kph, the range went way down. . . .