How do we clean up the American health care mess?

Someone recently called for an intelligent thread on this topic, instead of snark and funny pictures. Well, before you can discuss something intelligently you have to face reality. So first, let’s accept two well established facts that are now beyond reasonable dispute:

  1. It’s a complete disaster, almost certainly beyond repair, and not worth even trying to salvage.

  2. It’s the Lightbringer’s fault. Not the opposition party’s, not the insurers’, not the Tooth Fairy’s, not even global warming’s. His. His own party shares some blame for voting for it, but ultimately The Grownup In The Room is the one who laid this steaming turd.

Having accepted these, let’s move on to:

  1. How do we undo it? What is the path to repeal?

  2. How do we undo the damage already done?

  3. Should we try again to reform health care? And if so, how?

  4. Is there anything we can do to make sure this sort of disaster never happens again?

Why would anyone accept two “facts” that are not facts?

Please.

1 Like

[quote=“ironlady”]Why would anyone accept two “facts” that are not facts?

Please.[/quote]

Off to a bad start here.

I agree with the sentence you wrote here. But we probably are interpreting it in two different ways. :wink:

I have serious doubts whether it is possible to have an intelligent discussion here on this topic, but I want to try this one last try before giving up.

If this doesn’t work, then snark and funny pictures it is. At least that stuff is fun.

There are two fundamental preliminary problems. One is that America’s economy is in decline so the divide between haves and have nots is becoming more pronounced and will probably only get worse. The other problem is that American society is so polarized between liberal and conservative that’s there’s no longer any meaningful common ground so no real compromise is possible, gridlock prevails and nothing significant ever gets done.

The first problem means the status quo - doing nothing - is no longer viable. The solution to the second problem, gridlock, is to agree to a moratorium on the traditional checks and balances and give the other side x number of years to have free rein within the law to implement its healthcare solution completely free of either participation or obstructionism by the other side. At the end of the agreed upon time period a referundum would be held and the people would vote up or down on permanently adopting the system then in place. If the majority says no, the other side would have the option to roll back the system to the beginning if necessary and implement its solution free of either participation or obstructionism by the other side. A referendum would once again be held and if the majority voted no to adoption then it would be time to consider the possibility that America’s system of government just doesn’t work because nobody with any real brains or ability wanted to be any part of it. That last option, btw, is my best guess as to how the whole scenario will play out.

An intelligent discussion is definitely possible, but it’s made a little more difficult if you start your post with two so called facts that are simply your opinion. :2cents:

I agree with that, and in fact winning an election used to mean something close to that in practice. In the last several years though, obstructionism has ruled the day. This has been my point from the start with Obama Care. If there wasn’t so much blind obstructionism in Washington, the plan could have been implemented much closer to it’s original intention. Maybe it would have been very good and the people would have been happy, or maybe it wouldn’t have been and it could have been repealed, but it should have been attempted in a reasonably pure form. But anybody who spends any time following American politics knows that every law from healthcare to gun legislation gets bastardized along the way if it is to have any hope of passing through the legislation process and what you end up with is nothing like the original form.

At this point in time the only possible way things improve is if one of the parties wins a super majority and actually has some freedom to make some much needed and in some cases major changes to the current system. As is that’s never going to happen. Obama Care is just going to be one of many failed attempts at fixing this broken system. If this gridlock in Washington continues for very much longer it’s going to start making the Chinese system look brilliant. :astonished:

As i understand it there are three main markets, private insurance before Obamacare, the new Obamacare market and Medicare. Push the low income earners away from private insurance to Obamacare or medicare, once enough are enrolled but unhappy with Obamacare push for an expansion of Medicare. Essentially, your left with two markets, Obamacare will cease to exist, Medicare will expand for all, and only those willing to pay premiums will get extended and superior coverage by insurance. A single payer system, with those that can pay to have extended coverage. Same as the Uk, same as Taiwan, same as most countries.

Vaguely resembling the status quo ante, except you leave out Medicaid. Going back to what we had before will do for a start. That was a bit broken, but far less so than this mess.

Whether it will sneak past the tin god and his veto depends on whether he’s evil or stupid. From his behavior thus far, he’s got to be one or the other. I think at some point, he’ll be more concerned with saving face and preserving his ego than anything else. Let him pretend that he’s signing off on a mere… adjustment. Fine tuning a fine law. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

[quote=“rowland”]

Vaguely resembling the status quo ante, except you leave out Medicaid. Going back to what we had before will do for a start. That was a bit broken, but far less so than this mess.

Whether it will sneak past the tin god and his veto depends on whether he’s evil or stupid. From his behavior thus far, he’s got to be one or the other. I think at some point, he’ll be more concerned with saving face and preserving his ego than anything else. Let him pretend that he’s signing off on a mere… adjustment. Fine tuning a fine law. Yeah, that’s the ticket.[/quote]

The train has left the station. Pushing back one aspect of the law for a year changes nothing. There WILL be a migration to Obamacare in 2015, the government WILL prop the insurance companies up through taxes they are collecting. The ONLY fix, is medicare (and Medicaid?) for all.

About the only thing there will be for sure is more gridlock and each side sabotaging the other’s efforts to ensure they’re stillborn. The only hope is a truce because the ideological divide is too great for anything resembling cooperation.

[quote=“rowland”]Someone recently called for an intelligent thread on this topic, instead of snark and funny pictures. Well, before you can discuss something intelligently you have to face reality. So first, let’s accept two well established facts that are now beyond reasonable dispute:

  1. It’s a complete disaster, almost certainly beyond repair, and not worth even trying to salvage.

  2. It’s the Lightbringer’s fault. Not the opposition party’s, not the insurers’, not the Tooth Fairy’s, not even global warming’s. His. His own party shares some blame for voting for it, but ultimately The Grownup In The Room is the one who laid this steaming turd.

Having accepted these, let’s move on to:

  1. How do we undo it? What is the path to repeal?

  2. How do we undo the damage already done?

  3. Should we try again to reform health care? And if so, how?

  4. Is there anything we can do to make sure this sort of disaster never happens again?[/quote]

You can’t possibly expect reasoned discussion when you make such unreasonable demands on the people you hope to engage in discussion with.

I’ve seen a lot of garbage come from the rightwingers on this forum over the years, but this is one of the garbagiest.

If you want to know my fix for the issue it is:

  1. Expel all Republicans from office and replace them with liberals and progressives.
  2. Expel all Conservadems from office and replace them with liberals and progressives.
  3. Institute universal, single-payer healthcare.

You’re confused. I’m not looking to engage in discussion with anyone who would find these demands unreasonable. I’m looking to engage in discussion with those who would find them eminently reasonable - in fact, necessary.

Have a nice day.

[quote=“rowland”][quote=“Chris”]
You can’t possibly expect reasoned discussion when you make such unreasonable demands on the people you hope to engage in discussion with.
[/quote]

You’re confused. I’m not looking to engage in discussion with anyone who would find these demands unreasonable. I’m looking to engage in discussion with those who would find them eminently reasonable - in fact, necessary.

Have a nice day.[/quote]

Echo chamber looking for discussion with people living in a bubble. :laughing:

[quote=“rowland”][quote=“Chris”]
You can’t possibly expect reasoned discussion when you make such unreasonable demands on the people you hope to engage in discussion with.
[/quote]

You’re confused. I’m not looking to engage in discussion with anyone who would find these demands unreasonable. I’m looking to engage in discussion with those who would find them eminently reasonable - in fact, necessary.[/quote]
In other words, you’re not interested in discussion at all. You just want other unreasonable people to blindly agree with your unreasonable opinion in an attempt to convince you that they’re reasonable.

[quote=“Chris”]
In other words, you’re not interested in discussion at all. You just want other unreasonable people to blindly agree with your unreasonable opinion in an attempt to convince you that they’re reasonable.[/quote]

I’m sorry you feel this way.

You cannot be so deluded as to not recognize that this is a perfect description of how you approach issues, no?

[quote=“Chris”]
If you want to know my fix for the issue it is:

  1. Expel all Republicans from office and replace them with liberals and progressives.
  2. Expel all Conservadems from office and replace them with liberals and progressives.
  3. Institute universal, single-payer healthcare.[/quote]

Your fix is a coup and the imposition of totalitarian, centralized government run by the progressive vanguard of the people? That should work. It’s about time somebody came up with some fresh ideas around here.

Maybe a coup and a good civil war is the answer to sorting this whole deadlock farce out once and for all, The mere fact that people are starting to think that way offers a glimmer of hope for the future.

Except that…

  1. The Republicans were not involved in the planning, implementation or execution of Obamacare. Despite their opposition, the Democrats had enough votes to pass this in any way shape or form that they desired and they did so.
  2. Despite questions/comments from people like me about how, despite reading through the mass report, that I/we did not understand how this was to work and what it actually entailed, most supporters were confident that the issues raised were not problems and that I/we were being deliberately obtuse.
  3. No Republicans forced Obama to promise/state/declare anything. He is being evaluated on HIS promises, HIS projections, HIS evaluations, HIS declarations. This has NOTHING to do with the Republicans.
  4. NOW, issues are surfacing. NOW, there is discussion about reaching out to Republicans to achieve a bipartisan solution. NOW, there is admission that not all of the details were so clear after all.

Chris’ solution is to REMOVE the Republicans from the process entirely. Well, isn’t that what happened for the first 5 years of Obamacare. The question now is does someone like Chris recognize that Obamacare is running into these problems with NARY a Republican’s involvement? and his solution then is to shut Republicans out entirely as this process moves forward? My only question to him then would be would he also like to remove from this process all Democrats who are now raising their voices in protest/concern? including former President William Jefferson Clinton?