The KMT led city government has the power to bring in change. They just don’t have the vision or guts to do more than tinker.[/quote]
Why?[/quote]
Do you have politicians where you come from? 
[/quote]
Lousy way to avoid giving the answer :roflmao:
The real changes happened when DPP Chen was Mayor of Taipei. At least he had the guts to do something about the woeful traffic and pollution conditions and had the police actively enforcing road rules. That is why Taipei is so much better today than it was back in the 1990’s[/quote]
I know. But he was voted in only because of a split. My point was Taipei is a blue town and the capital. It should lead, or at least follow some other capitals in the region.
I wish for a mayor like Chen again, believe me.
The KMT led city government has the power to bring in change. They just don’t have the vision or guts to do more than tinker.[/quote]
Why?[/quote]
Do you have politicians where you come from? [/quote]
Lousy way to avoid giving the answer :roflmao:[/quote]
Do you think a single word question deserves better? 
The KMT led city government has the power to bring in change. They just don’t have the vision or guts to do more than tinker.[/quote]
Why?[/quote]
Do you have politicians where you come from? [/quote]
Lousy way to avoid giving the answer :roflmao:[/quote]
Do you think a single word question deserves better? [/quote]
Talk about out of context. Never mind :aiyo:
The real changes happened when DPP Chen was Mayor of Taipei. At least he had the guts to do something about the woeful traffic and pollution conditions and had the police actively enforcing road rules. That is why Taipei is so much better today than it was back in the 1990’s[/quote]
I know. But he was voted in only because of a split. My point was Taipei is a blue town and the capital. It should lead, or at least follow some other capitals in the region.
I wish for a mayor like Chen again, believe me.[/quote]
Yes so nothing will happen with the Ma’s, Hau’s and other hand me down KMT politicians.
The real changes happened when DPP Chen was Mayor of Taipei. At least he had the guts to do something about the woeful traffic and pollution conditions and had the police actively enforcing road rules. That is why Taipei is so much better today than it was back in the 1990’s[/quote]
I know. But he was voted in only because of a split. My point was Taipei is a blue town and the capital. It should lead, or at least follow some other capitals in the region.
I wish for a mayor like Chen again, believe me.[/quote]
Yes so nothing will happen with the Ma’s, Hau’s and other hand me down KMT politicians.[/quote]
I agree to a point. Stuff happens just at a pace that needs to be calculated in epochs. 
The KMT led city government has the power to bring in change. They just don’t have the vision or guts to do more than tinker.[/quote]
Why?[/quote]
Do you have politicians where you come from? [/quote]
Lousy way to avoid giving the answer :roflmao:[/quote]
Do you think a single word question deserves better? [/quote]
Talk about out of context. Never mind :aiyo:[/quote]
We appear to be writing at cross-purposes. My apologies good, sir. 
Huizhou … been there and have seen it … clean, no noise …
Well, not so much gay as only 16 year old school girls drive them. Much like [strike]baseball[/strike] softball/rounders and [strike]basketball[/strike] netball.
Sorry. I couldn’t resist!
Yeah, mate. But who does she live with? What are her other expenses? I’m guessing with her parents, and free to spend on what she wants as everything else is taken care of. I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if I am. [/quote]
You are exactly right, now are you going to tell me that she is atypical here?[/quote]
Not at all. That she’s typical in that is exactly my point. I think we agree there. 
Those kinds of things are faced by married couples[/quote]
Or single parents, as in my case.
Only true for me if working two jobs count as a double income. 
Some are. Many are driving daddy’s car, or the car daddy paid for and maintains. Even more are still [strike]mooching off their parents[/strike] living at home with all the benefits and savings that entails.
Couldn’t say, but I think most get a 13th check.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
We appear to be writing at cross-purposes. My apologies good, sir. [/quote]
You’re a card. If you or anyone wrote that increasing the fare on the MRT would result in lower ridership everyone would agree this is a reasonable prediction based on economic principles. But for me to say that the majority of people will not replace a cheap scooter with a much more expensive car that could eat up up to 40% of their salary is somehow superficial logic. :loco:
I am making a sensible prediction and I have backed it up with the fact that when only one transport variable went up in price, namely gas, many people in Taiwan switched from cars to a cheaper form of transport (scooters). It’s entirely reasonable then to predict that if people can’t ride a scooter most will choice the next cheapest alternative (buses or MRT) and not the most expernsive (private car).
If you can’t form a coherent argument against this then be honest. I’m not necessarily correct in my prediction but it is not in any form superficial.
Quit resorting to name calling and petty evasions.
Ok you seem to be having a problem with comprehension here. First no where did I at any point say that a majority of people will switch to from scooters to cars. What I said was that one of the questions that would need to be looked at is to what degree this might occur. You’ve dismissed this out of hand based merely on your own opinion.
Again the issue isn’t what most people will do and I’ve never taken any position that most people would do so. What I said was that it is possible that some people would move from scooters to cars, possibly enough to have a measurabe mitigating effect. And again that is something that should be considered before it can be automatically dismissed out of hand. You haven’t provided ANY fact what so ever that back up the position that you can dismiss this possibility.
I’m going to assume your so called facts on this matter refer to your point about the average Taiwnese income being 30k/month. So you use a National average and apply it to Taipei city where the average wage is higher. You also make the assumption that every scooter driver is at the National average or lower which is flawed.
Here again you’ve missed understood. When I used the word ‘superficial’ I was reffering to the observation that cars are very prevalant here and it would seem that the average Taiwanese can afford to own one. I’ll take partial responsibility for this misunderstandering because I worded very badly. I should have said ‘based on superficial observation it would seem logical…’ I won’t change it, read it again and I think you’ll see what I meant. It was not an attack
I have no idea what you are talking about here. You continously misrepresent what I say. You claim to back up your opinion with facts but, I haven’t seen one example of this.
You say drastically reducing/banning the number of scooters will clean the air here. You haven’t given one fact that shows what contribution to poor air quality is made by scooters. You haven’t offered a single shred of evidence that you have any idea what the net effect on the environment this restriction will have (what are the measurable benifits). You haven’t given any facts that justify dismissing out of hand any possible unintended consquences that could partially mitigate any benefits to such a policy. You haven’t offered any facts that indicate what the costs such a policy would impose on the Taiwanese people or any indication that there has been any examination on wether any particular segment of the population will bear a disproportionately large portion of those costs. You’ve offered no facts that show that the degree of improvement would justify those costs. You offered no concrete facts as to whether the infrastructure is in place to offer reasonable alternative to people faced with having the scooter no longer available to the as an option. And no MM, replacing a 9 min commute with a 40 minute commute is not a reasonable alternative.
In the end answering all this questions and other may lead to conclusion that a policy heavily discouraging scooter use is valid. But, you haven’t given any indication that you’ve actually considered any of this.
That’s being pretty evasive
I think a lot of people drive scooters instead of cars simply because they are more convenient for everything. I can’t park a car in front of seven/wellcome/random store/random shop without having to find a parking space first. Cars wait in traffic instead of weaving through it.
My friend’s family is loaded (dad is taishangren) and they all drive scooters. Why? So they can park wherever. They keep their multiple Mercedes in the garage for when they want to drive further away like to Yilan or something.
Let’s not forget how cheap Chinese people are. $100 for gas vs. over $1000.
Gman, you are being deliberately evasive in your answers. It’s probable but not definite the number of cars on the streets would increase by a small amount, perhaps 10% as some people with cars go back to using them for various purposes. Few will also go out and purchase a car because if you think about it they would have done that already if they could afford it. But Taipei City is already very expensive for parking and it’s not like there are suddenly going to be loads of new cars parking spaces built in apartment blocks, municipal areas or office blocks. All that will happen is that car parking will get EVEN more expensive. As public transportation improves in the Taipei area overall car ownership should follow Japanese trends and start reducing substantially.
Most companies in Taiwan don’t actually pay for parking for their staff, you use a car, tough you pay for parking yourself which runs anywhere from 5000 NTD/mth - 10,000 NTD in Taipei city. The only people who get car parking included are the very senior management. I actually completely underestimated the costs earlier. Then you’ve got to pay for your own parking which must be about 3000-5000/mth in Taipei. You’ve also got to take into account the higher number of fines you get in the Taipei area for speeding, that’s probably 1000 NTD/mth. Then gas costs must run at 1000-2000 NTD per month. Annual tax about 12,000 NTD average. Maintenance at 20,000 NTD. So you are looking at 16,000 mth to run a car in the Taipei area give or take.
The costs of running a car are much less outside Taipei simply due to cheap car parking and less traffic cameras. Yes quite a lot of workers commute in from Taipei and Taoyuan County but many who can afford it drive already, the folks who cant afford to pay for parking in Taipei City will likely switch to public transport especially as the network improves.
Again, the first step before considering a ban, restrictions, or tolls on scooters is to first ensure that there is a reasonable system in place to efficiently move people. Taiwan still does not have a system that could bear that increased load on it.
First build the infrastructure and then the people will move to it if its efficient rather than using the stick method to enforce it.
Personally I think all this talk about scooter/vehicle pollution is overdone as it is the business that are the biggest polluters, and vehicle pollution is just a sidebar to distract the attention away from the real problem.
First of all I’m not being deliberately evasive in my answers because I’m not giving any answers. All I’ve been doing is asking questions. From the stand point of not answering direct questions you have been far more evasive than I have. Secondly, In order to claim I’ve been evasive you’d have to assume that my position is that the current level of scooter usage is the best and only possible circumstance. That’s ridiculous.
That’s right it’s probable not definite that’s what I’ve said you won’t find one example anywhere in this discussion where I’ve given any percentage. All I’ve said is it is a possible consequence and should be considered before advocating a major policy. You seem to think the number is miniscule or insignificant in their possible effects but that is no more valid than an opposing opinion. You say perhaps 10% but where does that number come from? What is the effect of that 10% increase? Sorry but, advocating a major change in policy based on merely your guess the perhaps 10% would switch to automobiles is goofy. And even if we find out that only 10% will switch, it would still be irresponsible to enact this policy without examining the effects of this increase in automobile traffic.
[/quote] Few will also go out and purchase a car because if you think about it they would have done that already if they could afford it. But Taipei City is already very expensive for parking and it’s not like there are suddenly going to be loads of new cars parking spaces built in apartment blocks, municipal areas or office blocks. All that will happen is that car parking will get EVEN more expensive. As public transportation improves in the Taipei area overall car ownership should follow Japanese trends and start reducing substantially.[/quote]
See here’s the problem you say few but you are basing that on or own personal logic which is formed by your perceptions. I can accept your reasoning but, why should I take it as fact without a further investigation of the issue. Based on my own experience I’m not so sure that someone who could afford a car would have bought one already in fact, I could easily afford to own multiple automobiles. I don’t because in cases where transit isn’t convienent a scooter does the job. If there were no scooters I would buy a car. Not only would my use of the automobile replace the trips I currently make by scooter but, they would replace a portion of the trips I make by transit.
Now you’re just pulling numbers out of thin air again and applying them to every individaul case. Higher number of speeding fines?? I’ve got a friend who’s owned a car for past 4 years in Taipei and he hasn’t recieved a single fine!! Even if I accepted that your numbers are possible hell, even if it turned out you were absolutely correct. It wouldn’t be an excuse for studying the issue before or dismissing the possible consequences of a punative scooter policy.
Please tell me you’re not serious! Cars are cheaper to own outside of Taipei simply because there are less traffic cameras??? Didn’t you just say that parking in Taipei will run 5-10k a month?? How many fkn speeding tickets do you get a month?? Maybe you should slow down?
Well, I’m not sure that there are a lot of people (relatively speaking) taking the scooter from Taoyuan County to Taipei city. For that kind of distance I don’t think the scooter offers much of an advantage over the commuter trains. I really don’t think a policy on scooters would have a big effect on intra-city commutes. But, it wouldn’t hurt to look at. Sure improvements in the public transport network should be a benifit. Improvements in technology should eventaully allow for electric vechicles to replace scooter. But, right now those alternative aren’t available.[/quote][/quote]
DP, there seems to be a problem with my browser. It appears when I go to edit my posts they end up getting quoted. I don’t know why this is happening. And yes I’m being careful not to accidently hit the ‘quote’ button.
Ok, it was my issue due to inadvertly touching the ‘quote’ button when moving my hand to touch the ‘Edit’ button on my tablet. Sorry guys.
Gman, I lived in Taipei for almost 10 hears living in multiple locations and I worked for a few different companies in that time. Not one provided free car parking to regular staff. None of the gongyu I stayed in had car parking available and local car parks were about 4-5k a month. This fact alone makes driving to work in Taipei City a prohibitive expense compared to taking public transport if your budget only stretches to driving a scooter previously.
I know I’m 22 pages late for this thread, and I know it isn’t good forum etiquette to post without reading all the replies to make sure your point hasn’t already been touched on, but I’m NOT reading 22 pages.
So, in response to the OP, does anyone find it a tad bit ironic that he (she?) is complaining about the repressive government in regards to marijuana, and then asks said repressive government to ban(or heavily tax) scooters?
your oppressive government is preventing me from smoking weed, Go away big boss man!
Help me help me! The smoke from scooters is bothering me! Get rid of all these dirty scooter drivers!
Though, not that I disagree with the OP’s point, just, that it is ironic, is all.
[quote=“dan2006”]Again, the first step before considering a ban, restrictions, or tolls on scooters is to first ensure that there is a reasonable system in place to efficiently move people. Taiwan still does not have a system that could bear that increased load on it.
First build the infrastructure and then the people will move to it if its efficient rather than using the stick method to enforce it.
Personally I think all this talk about scooter/vehicle pollution is overdone as it is the business that are the biggest polluters, and vehicle pollution is just a sidebar to distract the attention away from the real problem.[/quote]
Dan Taipei is soon to have an excellent and extensive MRT system along with multiple bus routes, cheap and economic train system and good expressways for car drivers. It’s also small and compact and now has good pavements pretty much everywhere. I really don’t see the issue to be honest. Can anything match up the cheapness and convenience of petrol scooters? Perhaps not. But is the trade-off worth it is the question people need to ask. For everything in life there is a trade-off. To get one thing you need to give on another. People are people everywhere and they respond to both push and pull factors, all good managers know this.
Want more money? Generally you’ll have to work harder and in a more stressful job. Want to enjoy more time with the kids? You might need to change that job or give it up entirely. Want to eat better food, got to pay that bit extra for the fresh and organic stuff. Trade-off!
MM has already mentioned that vehicle pollution is the major portion of air pollution in Taipei City and a large propotion in other cities.
After all the hyperbole it’s time for people to give some links to keep the Gmans of this world happy 
.
taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003359365
[b][i]Levels of particle matter below 2.5 micrometers in diameter – or PM2.5 – and carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) were highest in the morning and scooter riders stuck in traffic were the most exposed.
“A major source of PM2.5 is engine exhaust,” said Lung Shih-chun (龍世俊), associate research fellow at Academia Sinica’s Center for Environmental Changes.
“The closer you get to traffic, the higher the concentration of fine particular matter and harmful hydrocarbon compounds,” Lung said.
The samplings were taken in 2004 and 2005 between two MRT stations in Taipei.
Lung cited the “Six Cities” study conducted in 1993, which showed a strong correlation between exposure to PM2.5 and cardiovascular and lung-related deaths.
“Fine particulate matters are not filtered out by our body but are breathed deep into the lungs,” she said.
The study showed that on average scooter drivers were exposed to PM2.5 concentrations of 161 micrograms per cubic meter during their daily commute, substantially more than the 90 micrograms per cubic meter for car drivers and 105 micrograms per cubic meter for people riding on the MRT.
“We could see the concentrations spike at traffic lights, with scooter riders sitting behind the idling engines of the vehicles in front of them,” she said.
Scooter riders were also most vulnerable to PAHs, another component of engine exhaust and a highly potent carcinogen.[/i][/b]