And don’t forget all the scooter shops, small businesses and scooter mechanics that depend on scooter commuters for their daily bread, to educate their kids etc etc. Much like the buxiban system, with all that’s wrong with it, it’s still a massive industry that keeps 100s of thousands employed, families fed, waiguos in booze and kids educated (albeit, probably not at a buxiban).[/quote]
Once raising and keeping horses was a big industry. Then they invented the motor car. Then mechanic repair and dealer shops were a big industry. And so it goes…
Electric scooters will still need to be repaired and serviced.
Bismarck, that’s a poor justification for the buxiban industry!
bike for transport = 3rd world
moto/scoot for transport = 2nd world (what Taiwan loudly still is in this respect)
car for transport = 1st world
bike for pleasure = decadent 1st world (ie lazzy bums finally gettin off their duffs to get rid of those excess pounds…yes im talking bout what i should be doing).
[quote=“tommy525”]bike for transport = 3rd world
moto/scoot for transport = 2nd world (what Taiwan loudly still is in this respect)
car for transport = 1st world
[/quote]
you can’t gauge a country’s status as first/second world just by what vehicle they use for transportation. many italians ride scooters too, so is italy second world? in taiwan’s case, many taiwanese can afford to have cars. but taiwanese choose to ride scooters because the island is just too small to necessitate a car for long distance travel. and there’s no room to accommodate all the cars as it will just create more traffic and parking problems. who wouldnt choose a scooter over a car if you live in a big city like taipei where you can just park on a sidewalk for free as opposed to finding a parking space or a parking structure and paying for it?
i think it’s ideal for taiwan to not only develop electric scooters but smart cars. not everyone needs a big gas guzzling sedan. taiwan definitely has the technology to develop electric vehicle industry. the govt. just doesnt have the political chutzpah to pass/enforce legislation to push the auto industry to invest in the technology and consumers to purchase electric vehicles and/or raise gas prices to discourage gas vehicle usage. it’s the same problem u.s. govt had with auto industry when the auto companies initially fought electric vehicle development even as the japanese were already heavily moving into the field.
[quote=“tommy525”]bike for transport = 3rd world
moto/scoot for transport = 2nd world (what Taiwan loudly still is in this respect)
car for transport = 1st world
[/quote]
Personally I’d say it was the exact opposite
Have you noticed how in any third-world country (Taiwan still has vestiges of this) anyone with a car is considered “rich” and “modern”, despite the fact that the car was invented in 1910 purely so that posh nobs with nothing better to do could preserve their bodyfat ratio? The poorer the country, the more impressive it is to own a 100-year-old anachronism. Even if there are no roads to drive it on and no filling station for miles around.
People who are more interested in actually getting from A to B (rather than showing off how first-world they are) with the minimum fuss and cost choose a bike or a scooter, especially if B is only a couple of miles from A.
Exactly. Where on earth do we get this idea that if it uses more energy, it must be better?
Despite Taiwan’s reputation as a technology Mecca, the country has actually slipped far behind the rest of the world in the decade or so I’ve lived here. Far behind. And there are definite parallels with the US, where political squabbling between vested interest killed some extremely lucrative “green” markets such as wind turbines, PV cells, and batteries. Yes, there are still a few world-class US companies in those areas, but it took balls of steel and a great deal of private cash to get them going, and they are still far too focused on a nonexistent domestic market. The market leaders in those areas are now in Europe and Japan - even the Chinese are making a reasonable stab at it.
And don’t forget all the scooter shops, small businesses and scooter mechanics that depend on scooter commuters for their daily bread, to educate their kids etc etc. Much like the buxiban system, with all that’s wrong with it, it’s still a massive industry that keeps 100s of thousands employed, families fed, waiguos in booze and kids educated (albeit, probably not at a buxiban).[/quote]
Once raising and keeping horses was a big industry. Then they invented the motor car. Then mechanic repair and dealer shops were a big industry. And so it goes…
Electric scooters will still need to be repaired and serviced.
Bismarck, that’s a poor justification for the buxiban industry![/quote]
Sure. I’m not disagreeing with you. I hate the buxiban industry. But try converting the laobans. Shit, even try to get them to actually educate the kids, instead of “entertaining” them.
That’s the thing, though, innit? The first six months I spent here I saw how my buxiban laoban traded in his small car for a huge shiny new Toyota Camry. Who ever drove in it? Him and his fat ass wife. He once dragged me along window shopping on our day off (I’ll show you around the city! ), and the biggest memory I have of the day was how long it took to find parking every time we wanted to stop anywhere. Bloody moron. Even the cramped alley he lived in was too small to actually comfortable navigate in and out of with that monstrosity. I mean, who needs a bloody 3l fuel injected boat of a monster in Taiwan?
If we can convert everyone to viable electric scooters and small sized smart cars, if not mostly public transportation, I’m all for it. But until someone has a viable alternative, take your grubby mitts off of my scooter.
Ok, now I really feel like my life sucks! :raspberry: Thanks for that! (And for reminding me that I should get up to more productive things on my weekends. Bloody midterm marking.)
Seriously, though … there used to be a car in our basement carpark that didn’t even have license plates. It just sat there for about 6 months doing nothing. Every so often I saw the old grandma owner come and polish it or open and shut the doors. It never even went anywhere … but grandma had a car. Bear in mind what Taiwan was like even just 40 years ago: it was, by any reasonable definition, third-world. So it’s quite possible grandma - and a lot of other people - grew up with noticeable deprivations, and now she has the chance, she’s making up for it. Or she thinks she’s making up for it. Taiwan’s ultra-rapid development from zero to hero must have been a confusing time, in terms of people’s understanding of material wealth, progress and modernity.
Bit off topic but want to clarify a point often made and just recently made by Finley. While it is true Taiwan was very poor in the 60s, it was the most advanced region in Asia outside Japan during the 30s and 40s. Literacy rates were in the high 80s, and many people studied abroad, mostly Japan but also the US. Taiwan had advanced agriculture, petrochemical industries, railways, telephones, movie theatres, prosperous shopping districts, etc. Modernity came to Taiwan a lot longer ago than most foreigners think.
One of the great shames of the KMT invasion is that Taiwan was in a prime spot after WWII to provide Asia with food, raw materials, and expertise. But it was all destroyed. Literacy rates, for example, took 20 years to reach pre-WWII levels after the KMT arrived and destroyed all the teaching colleges (and many teachers during the 228 incident).
There are lots of families who have been well off for generations, so it is not true that a car is some bizzare new device to every old person. Railway was probably far more revolutionary to the Taiwanese mindset.
MM, it’s a fair point, but it depends what you mean by ‘modernity’. Most of the hallmarks of a third-world country were there well into the 1980’s. A few of them still are. Rampant corruption, enormous income gap (the landed gentry vs. the common worker), exploitation and legal inequities, complete disregard for the environment (especially by said landed gentry), etc etc. A thin veneer of civilisation overlaid onto that was irrelevant for the average Zhou. The “advanced agriculture” used in Taiwan has been imported wholesale from the USA: it doesn’t work there, and it works even less well in a tropical climate (average rice yields here are still lower than those achieved by Fukuoka Masanobu in 1970’s Japan using all-natural methods). The petrochemical industry is of dubious national benefit, and the communications infrastructure was put there by the Japanese to make pillage more straightforward.
Pre-WW2, Taiwan may well have been moderately prosperous, but that was largely a side-effect of the (oppressive) Japanese occupation - the Qing reforms never really got going. Taiwan may well have remained the most advanced post-war - but that’s not really saying much considering the pitiful state of the region at that time (especially during the Cold War years). There may well have been doctors, politicans and headteachers buying cars with their ill-gotten gains in 1975, but grandma’s family, when she was a little girl, almost certainly wasn’t among them. Those families who have been “well off for generations” are/were invariably those who secured large land holdings during the first waves of immigration, or who were “given” it by the KMT for services rendered during the war.
Also, I wasn’t saying a car is perceived as new and bizarre. I was simply saying it’s a status symbol, and nothing more; especially so to those who grew up in poverty and deprivation. A big f-off SUV says to your neighbours “I am considerably richer than yeow”. Extra points if you can afford a parking space for it. And you know what? If I’d grown up wishing for something more interesting that rice and 地瓜葉 for lunch, I’d probably do the same.
But yeah - it’s interesting to speculate how things would have turned out if the KMT hadn’t been allowed to do their thing for all those years. Considering the heft of the USA at the time (and the low regard in which they held CKS) they probably could have put a stop to it. But that wasn’t the way things were done in those days.
{holds up finger and thumb three inches apart}[/quote]
:roflmao: My thoughts exactly.
Sure, I get that. But by “any reasonable definition” South Africa was also 3rd world just 40 years ago, but you don’t see every Tom, Dick and Harry there driving gas guzzling monsters. Wait. Hang on. You do, actually.
I see your point.
Pity. They should never have allowed the f***ers to come here to begin with, but that’s another thread. Don’t even get me started! :fume:
Seriously, though … there used to be a car in our basement carpark that didn’t even have license plates. It just sat there for about 6 months doing nothing. Every so often I saw the old grandma owner come and polish it or open and shut the doors. It never even went anywhere … but grandma had a car. Bear in mind what Taiwan was like even just 40 years ago: it was, by any reasonable definition, third-world. So it’s quite possible grandma - and a lot of other people - grew up with noticeable deprivations, and now she has the chance, she’s making up for it. Or she thinks she’s making up for it. Taiwan’s ultra-rapid development from zero to hero must have been a confusing time, in terms of people’s understanding of material wealth, progress and modernity.[/quote]
yeah i lived for bout 3 years once in this one apt and right in the same alley i always saw this VW golf. It basically sat there in teh same spot day after day after woeek after week. I think it only was driven a few times a year. After 3 years it was a sad looking car. What a total waste. Sat there doing nothing but rusting and depreciating. Adn taking up one valuable spot to park a car.
when i lived in china those electric scooters were everywhere. and they sucked, looked and sounded like absaloute pieces of shit. people ride them all over the pavement to.
i dont think they are made powerful enough yet, espcially for taiwan, riding up mountains and such. ive seen a video of a guy with one thats powerful enough to run almost as fast as a scooter but he doesnt seem to use it.
what i am interested in though, is one of these ebikes, looks mad. dont know if its safe and easy to control though. youtube.com/watch?v=Y6o-g7YeC4Q
More than air pollution, I hate the scooters because they’re just straightup lethal. Have any of you guys tried crossing a major intersection? The damn scooters turning right will just come at you with no hesitation expecting you to stop dead in your track or somehow maneuver your way around them like a ninja. I get anxiety attacks from just trying to get to the other side in one piece.
Also, it should be illegal for scooters to ride on below-awning sidewalks. Wtf dude? We’re not filming an action sequence here.
While it is convenient and a money-saver for a lot of people considering Taiwan’s overcrowdedness, we’re better off in the long run with these things off the streets. If only =.=
I wonder what you think a scooter should sound like?
Maybe the only thing about Taiwan’s roads that makes me laugh is scooter drivers who install big, aftermarket exhausts. Seriously, do they really think that loud farting sound is gonna impress the chicks?
I’ve always found the relatively recent and dramatic rise in vehicle ownership here interesting. Here is some statistical perspective on the issue from this study:
In 1974 Taiwan had a car ownership rate of only 14 vehicles per 1000 people (1.4%!). By 2002 that had risen to 260 for a growth rate of almost 10% per year (297 in 2010). In comparison, the US went from 411 to 812 vehicles per 1000 people from 1960 to 2002 (Taiwan’s stats don’t go back that far).
So it stand to reason that, yes, ‘owning’ a car is a new and bizarre concept to almost all old people in Taiwan.
I’ve always found the relatively recent and dramatic rise in vehicle ownership here interesting. Here is some statistical perspective on the issue from this study:
In 1974 Taiwan had a car ownership rate of only 14 vehicles per 1000 people (1.4%!). By 2002 that had risen to 260 for a growth rate of almost 10% per year (297 in 2010). In comparison, the US went from 411 to 812 vehicles per 1000 people from 1960 to 2002 (Taiwan’s stats don’t go back that far).
So it stand to reason that, yes, ‘owning’ a car is a new and bizarre concept to almost all old people in Taiwan.[/quote]
Well yes and no. You cannot compare to the US which basically invented the automobile state along with Germany.
There have been many cars in Taiwan since the 1970s and 1980s. Owning a nice car is still a status thing here (just like the UK) but having a car is very normal even for the relatively low income masses.
I don’t have the statistics at hand but I’m guessing car ownership may have peaked by now.
More bizarre is the continued heavy reliance and acceptance of motorised scooters, this is unique worldwide. The only place comparable is perhaps Vietnam, but Vietnam is about fifteen to twenty years behind Taiwan in terms of economic development and education levels.
(ie lazzy bums finally gettin off their duffs to get rid of those excess pounds…yes im talking bout what i should be doing).
), and the biggest memory I have of the day was how long it took to find parking every time we wanted to stop anywhere. Bloody moron. Even the cramped alley he lived in was too small to actually comfortable navigate in and out of with that monstrosity. I mean, who needs a bloody 3l fuel injected boat of a monster in Taiwan?
