We have already shown this is a straw man. If those scooters were taken away, those people are not going to march down to the local Honda dealership and leave with shiny new Civics. It just doesn’t work that way. In the vast majority of cases, a scooter is not an alternative to a car. It’s an alternative to walking, cycling or public transport.
The smart way to tackle the scooter problem would be to prevent the sale of new 50cc scooters, set a short lifespan for existing ones and introduce some incentive to buy electric bicycles instead. Taxes for small cars and midsize scooters could be raised to make that switch an unattractive one. And maybe introduce “proof of parking” for ALL new vehicle registrations, like Singapore has.
After the 50ccs have been phased out, the remaining scooters could be tackled by other means - taxing them out of existence would help pay costs for their eventual destruction and disposal.
When you look at all those scooter you are looking at people that have made a decesion that scootering is the best solution to their need to get around the city. What is their alternative? One poster seemed to indicate that public transport isn’t a viable option so what would you have them do? You think you know better then they do about how they should get around? Where does your sense of moral superiority come from? Why do you think anybody who asks questions about banning scooter is making excuses? As far as I can see the OP’s line of reasoning is; “Me see scooters, me no like scooters, me want scooters banned”. Sorry, that just doesn’t cut it.
Anyways a few questions;
How much of an improvement in air quality would a banning scooters achieve? With the current infrastructre in place how many people will simply move to less efficient modes of motor transport (single occupied automobiles)?
Is the poor air quality problem in Taipei solely due to scooter exhaust? Overall vehicle exhaust? Is there a significant geological factor that is contributing?
I’ve seen people sighting Japan. To my knowlege (correct me if I’m wrong) scooters are NOT banned in Japan. I know they aren’t banned in Canada either. So if that is the case why don’t those countries have the same prevalence of scooters as Taiwan?
Natural gas / electric buses and taxis may be worthwhile looking into but can’t that be done independent of a ban on scooters. As far as electrical vehicles go aren’t you simple moving the air pollution to another location. Perhaps to support this e-fleet we should propose building a coal fired generating station beside the trash incinerators in Beitou and the one near the zoo.
As a personal observation, the worst experience I’ve had with air pollution was in an area between Yang Mei and Jubei. The smog was bad enough that it stung my eyes. Not one bit of it was due to scooter emmissions. It was automobile smog comming from the Freeway.
In the end if it can be shown that a scooter ban will result in much cleaner air then I’d fully support banning the scooters. But, I’m going to need something more rigorous than some off the cuff opinion from any individaul or group. If you can’t withstand some basic questioning then you’re view is probably on pretty thin ice.
imagine if these were all cars. btw, this is sanchong anytime 6AM-11PM at any intersection. …[/quote]
No. This is one place on the Taipei side of Taipei Bridge during morning rush hour. It is not every intersection in SanChong. I have taken many photos from this exact location and at the same time of day BECAUSE it is freakishly crowded with scooters. (Minchuan West Road for other photographers out there)
Your other points are valid, but to claim that this is every intersection in SanChong is wrong.
This is not every intersection in San Francisco. It is near the Oakland side of the Bay Bridge’s toll plaza. I think it’s about 18 lanes wide. aerialarchives.photoshelter.com/ … t6p7R0WU2Q
Forgive my ignorance but where have you shown this. How many will switch to automobiles? How many will simply walk the 4-5 km to work? Maybe none will go get shiny new Civics maybe most will get second hand nissans or fords. In the vast majority a scooter isn’t an alternative to a car? Where’s your numbers? For how many people in that photo is this the case? Link me to the survey. Or, are you just pulling your ‘facts’ out of you ass?
This is a good idea. The people that really depend on the scooter will pay the additional cost in order to continue using it. And those who’s use is marginal will have to decide if the incentives are enough to switch to other means.
Do you really need a survey to prove the patently obvious? The fact is the people in that photo are sitting on scooters because they can’t afford to drive a car. Of the hundreds of scooter owners I know, every single one of them would switch to a car if they could afford to buy and run it and had parking facilities at home and at the office.
[quote=“monkey”][quote=“Gman”]
Or, are you just pulling your ‘facts’ out of you ass?
[/quote]
Do you really need a survey to prove the patently obvious? The fact is the people in that photo are sitting on scooters because they can’t afford to drive a car. Of the hundreds of scooter owners I know, every single one of them would switch to a car if they could afford to buy and run it and had parking facilities at home and at the office.[/quote]
So that’s a yes then.
So what do you propose as an alternative for those people that are sitting on scooters because they can’t afford to drive a car. Also, is it because they can’t afford a car or is it because the scooter provides them with a more economical alternative that guides their choice? Simplistic casual observations are not equal to facts.
[quote=“monkey”][quote=“Gman”]
Or, are you just pulling your ‘facts’ out of you ass?
[/quote]
Do you really need a survey to prove the patently obvious? The fact is the people in that photo are sitting on scooters because they can’t afford to drive a car. Of the hundreds of scooter owners I know, every single one of them would switch to a car if they could afford to buy and run it and had parking facilities at home and at the office.[/quote]
I think, he needs a survey that will make him feel better about doing the wrong thing.
There is really no argument why people on scooters shouldn’t pay for making some real improvements to their vehicles. To have them accelerate to 20km/h on electric power before kicking in the combustion engine would cost something between 15 000 and 45 000 NT$ depending on battery range and power.
Why are they allowed to harm the health of others when there are ways for improvement?
IMO “I want scooters off the street” is easy to yell - but what do you have to offer in terms of how you think you can reach this goal? As long as you don’t have dictatorial powers - seems you can do not much more than yell.
[quote=“touduke”]Hamlet - jetzt beruhige dich erst mal.
IMO “I want scooters off the street” is easy to yell - but what do you have to offer in terms of how you think you can reach this goal? As long as you don’t have dictatorial powers - seems you can do not much more than yell.[/quote]
He’s selling electric scooters, of course! About as least-objective as its possible to get!
[quote=“Hamletintaiwan”]
I think, he needs a survey that will make him feel better about doing the wrong thing. [/quote]
He doesn’t need a survey to feel better about doing the wrong thing or the right thing where to you get that from. But, if he’s going to state something as fact he is damn well going to have to have something behind those so called ‘facts’.
Is there infrastructure to make charging these motors convienent let alone possible? If there is no argument then why aren’t they doing it? Is it your position that the Taiwanses people are stupid? Willfully ignorant? or conciously working to destroy their own evirionment?
YOU say there are ways for improvement? But, you feel no need to answer questions about how much these steps will really benifit the situation. You give no regard towards how you’re proposals would affect these people and whether they would see enough of a benefit in exchange for the sacrifice YOU would impose on them. And, you don’t even want to give regard to valid questions about a proposed ban.
You seem to think you know what’s best for the Taiwanese people and worse you seem to assume that their too stupid to see what you see. I’ve seen some posts here attributing the scooter usage to the fact that it’s simply because Taiwanese are lazy. I consider that borderline racisim.
Edit: Your rhetorical question about their right to harm others is somewhat ironic given your electric scooter idea would transfer a measure of that pollution to the people living near the power plants needed to supply that extra electricity.
Gman there is nothing wrong with people wanting to improve things. L.A. had horrible pollution when I grew up there.
However there are many “expert expats” here and one would think they all come from city planning, civil engineering and environmental backgrounds. Perhpas some of those expats who have lived here for more than 20 years might like to describe what the traffic conditions were like at that time when there were no expressways or the MRT systems. Mass chaos.
Yes you are correct in stating that the remarks from some could be considered borderline racism.
Absolutely correct. Who doesn’t what to improve things? But, that’s not really the issue here. What you have here is a few people who think they know what would improve the things they care about. They don’t want to give any regard to how things they want to do would affect the lives of others living here and they suffer no scrutity about whether the facts back up what they are proposing.
Again, they seem to believe their opinion and casual observation is tantamount to fact. I disagree.
Yes this has been one of the uglier aspects of some of this discussion.
Yes I also disagree but nevermind we can let them all vent about their favourite traffic hazards such as too many scooters, which are a very cheap economical form of transportation for the masses. I suggest those who want to get rid of scooters walk that 5km to the office and back everyday for a year then tell us the benefits of doing so. After all most likey they also ride scooters as well.
That’s what I said - the Japanese don’t need to use so much personal transport as they have a lot more stations. Also, Japanese cities are more “zoned” than Taiwanese ones. Most people live in residential zones and these will have very good MRT links.
For another comparison of times to travel - I used to get the bus to uni, it took about 35 mins. To go on the MRT would take 40 mins (there’s no direct route and I’m not so close to the station) or on my scooter takes 9 minutes…
[quote=“headhonchoII”]
Do yourselves a favour and stand at any major intersection of your choice on a hot and humid summer’s evening during the evening rush hour. Breath in the toxic fumes deep into your lungs, suck in the particulates, lap it up even and tell me that there is not a better way?[/quote]
I’m already doing so everyday while working in Taipei. But I don’t see how banning scooters is gonna solve this.
If you are at a red light that exceeds 40 seconds, turn off your engine. It’s not like these scooters take long to start up. That’s usually what I do. If I’m at a light and the counter is more than 40ish I usually turn off the engine. I think it’s uncomfortable to sit on it idling anyway. That might cut down on some unnecessary pollution, maybe.
About the pic…
The reason why there are so many scooters waiting at Taipei Bridge Minquan W Rd area is because that light timer is - - until it becomes 99 whenever it feels like it. They should allow the scooters to continue on the elevated roads a bit further with that exit still there to lower the number a bit. Just poor planning. Maybe it’s intentional to discourage people from driving scooters…??
I live on the other side on Taipei Bridge, and yes, it is that crowded also. You just can’t see it because the bridge exit is so windy over on that side. It’s not AS bad as the Taipei side because they have 2 exits, but If I take the right lane off the bridge, I am routinely stuck ON the bridge for at least 2 light cycles during rush hour. The Sanchong roads are not as wide as the Taipei ones, so everyone gets crammed into a smaller space. Not to mention the busses that go BACK AND FORTH across lanes. Right at the foot of the bridge in Sanchong there is a police station with a bus stop next to it. All of the busses either make a right turn off the bridge or stop at this bus stop. They all have to cut across all of those scooters. Minquan W Rd has a central bus lane. I make a point of going left (up then over) on Huanhe and then looping back around.
Sanchong is really terrible to drive around at all times because the lights make no sense (neither do the roads). I don’t know who planned them but I feel like I’m always waiting at red lights…so naturally everyone drives down the narrow side streets (which have scooters parked haphazardly all over the place) and everyone almost hits each other. Then you have grandma on a bike going 2kph in the middle of it all. The bridge entrances and exits are in such odd places and don’t go anywhere useful.
For the last 3 days I’ve taken the MRT because I hate driving around Sanchong in the rain, or actually anywhere in the rain.
The car I rented in the UK a month or two ago had a feature where the engine would cut out if you put the car into neutral and put the handbrake on and would automatically come back on when you put the clutch back in. Took a bit of getting used to at first.
Scooters are convenient, yes. Is everything that is convenient good for us, no. If everybody just cares about their own convenience will this always actually work out in reality, no.
An outright ban on scooters is not the best way but restrictions on their parking and the technology used should be put in place , it makes absolutely no sense not to.
Also don’t know why people are criticizing expats who have seen different and perhaps better ways of doing things. I have seen better ways overseas, how do I know it is better? I can breath clean air, walk the pavements and enjoy the relative peace and quiet. Yes all has been done in Japan decades ago.
Of course you are right, but if you want people to change, you need to give them a decent alternative.
A loop line on the MRT would help for a start, along with night buses.
As far as emissions go though, do 4 scooters really output a lot more than one car? (which has an engine much MUCH bigger than the combined scooter size)
