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1

This is not an English teaching question, so I didn’t want to post it there. If anyone has a better place for it, then by all means, move it.

I have a question for anyone that REALLY knows the language well, I mean like someone with a degree in English or something closely related.

I work for a publishing company and we’ve recently sent a copy of a new children’s book series to the government for approval. These books will be used in elementary schools here in Taiwan. I’m unsure what the full reviewal process is, but I know it’s reviewed by Taiwanese academics; not by a single native speakers, to my knowledge. When the review was returned to us, one problem really stuck out. This sentence:

“Where are you going?”
“We’re going to school.”

…was changed to…

“Where are you going?”
“We’re going to the school.”

In this context, I believe that their change is incorrect. I’m curious if anyone can back me up on this, or if in fact, I am wrong.

Either way, this whole process of reviewal and acceptance has really got me thinking. My chief editor told me that regardless if this is a mistake or not, they will make the change because they don’t want to “make waves” with the government. Meaning, the government gets mad and won’t accept the book which = loss of LOTS of money.

Ok, so let’s assume us or another company gets a report sent back that says there’s some kind of mistake, and let’s assume the government is wrong. So that company doesn’t want to cause problems and makes the change to something incorrect. Now, children all over Taiwan are learning incorrect English. Granted, this isn’t something new. But wouldn’t it be better if this review board had at least one native speaker? I mean, these Taiwanese PhD’s are certainly good at what they do, but they’re not native speakers. Through my work here I’ve met many English PhD’s who are so called experts in their field. Some of the things they’ve said or written were definately incorrect. My company won’t even let me edit their writings because “even if it’s wrong, they’re a PhD, and it would embarrass them to be corrected”. WOW!

Enough said. Just looking for an answer.

Thanks,
oZzo

2

Both are correct, but have slightly different nuances. “The school” makes it sound as though a particular school building was meant. “School” without the definite article brings to mind the abstract meaning which is probably more appropriate here. So, the government was wrong.

3

[quote=“ozzo”]Where are you going?"
“We’re going to school.”

…was changed to…

“Where are you going?”
“We’re going to the school.”

In this context, I believe that their change is incorrect. I’m curious if anyone can back me up on this, or if in fact, I am wrong.[/quote]

You haven’t supplied the context. However, if it were children attending the school, I believe it should be ‘we’re going to school’. If it were someone going to the school to do something else than attend class, I think it should be ‘the school’, being a place similar to ‘the park’, ‘the office’.

I have no formal qualifications in English though, so I breathlessly await an informed opinon.

4

Ozzo,

Just do whatever they ask…as long as it helps you sell books.

5

Yes, pretty much what I told my chief editor. And of course she agrees. No particular school was mentioned before these sentences. However, the change will be made.

Thanks

oZzo

6

Actually, that is the context. It’s a very basic beginners book. Just a page with an adult and a kid. The adult asks the kid the question and the kid answers. If the conversation took place directly in front of the school, maybe I could agree, but it takes place at home.

Anyhow, guess it doesn’t matter really. As Bane mentioned…whatever helps sell books. And in this case, that’s the bottom line.

oZzo

7

I’m going to school. - school, work, home are places that we go to in our everyday lives, and have cultural connotations above and beyond a building or place. School in this context indicates the place I go to everyday, during a set period, to do specific activities. It implies more than just a place.

I

8

It should be, “I’m going to the school read books.”

9

A contraction and a plural! Surely you expect too much.

10

Believe it or not, your publishing company IS correct on this one.
If your going to be using the sentence structure:
“I am going to [insert noun].” then, yes, you do need to have to add the word “THE” before the noun for the sentence to be gramatically correct.
For example:
I am going to THE office.
I am going to THE museum.
I am going to THE movies.

That’s it. Plain and simple.

In this example you’re confusing the word “school” as a verb. It isn’t. The word “school” (schooling, schooled, etc.) is a noun, so therefore you need the “THE”.
The reason that this confusion arises for the word “school” is because of colloquial reasons. We SAY “I’m going to school” so often now that we THINK it’s correct grammar, but it isn’t. I’m not sure how this confusion ever arose, but I suspect, it has something to do with kids (that includes us during our youths) being lazy and lacking grammatical understanding so we just say “I’m going to school”. Over time it becomes ingrained in our minds that this is, if not correct grammar, at least, acceptable grammar.
What really perplexes me is how I keep seeing this mumbo-jumbo talk about how “it depends on the context of the speech”, which is pure nonsense. It is ALWAYS grammatically wrong to say “I am going to school”. The context that needs consideration here is for what text is such a line appropriate for. If it is for a novel or work of fiction, fine, leave it; if it is for a educational purposes then this line has to be changed.
It’s nice to see that Taiwanese editors are actually good enough to catch this kind of error. I guess since they are not “native” speakers, they are also less prone to mistake acceptable colloquial speech as correct grammar.

11

I don’t have a PhD, but I do have a TESOL certificate and my dad has a PhD in English, so that’s gotta count for something! :sunglasses: :stuck_out_tongue:

“We’re going to school” is something that would be said by students on the way to school. Or perhaps by professors. It’s said by people who attend or work at that school on a regular basis.

“We’re going to the school” is something that would be said by, say, parents going to see their kid in a play performed at his school, or by local residents going to a school bake sale, or another situation in which someone who does not usually go to the school is on his way to that particular school.

[quote=“ozzo”]
Either way, this whole process of reviewal and acceptance has really got me thinking. My chief editor told me that regardless if this is a mistake or not, they will make the change because they don’t want to “make waves” with the government.[/quote]
I say screw 'em. Hold firm. Stand your ground. Incorrect English does NOT belong in material that is intended for teaching English. Period. And that WILL cause everyone a loss of face in the long run, because SOMEONE will eventually point out the error.

12

So you would say “I’m going to the home.” as well I suppose.

13

When you get there, are you “in school” or “in the school” ?
Verb my arse. To is a preposition, not a conjuction in that sentence too.

I agree with Chris

14

No. You’re an idiot. “I’m going to school”, “I’m going to hell”, “I’m going to Tesco”, “I’m going to Yonghe”. All right. Not “I’m going to the school”, “I’m going to the hell”, “I’m going to the Tesco”, and “I’m going to the Yonghe”.

15

American English grammar requires a number marker for countable nouns. The, an, a and numbers are number markers. School is a countable noun. This is sentence would be considered proper American English.

There are other forms of English that don’t require number markers.[/i]

16

I am going to the home.

I am going to the work.

As I said before, in some specific contexts, with some words the presence or absence of an article imposes specific meaning.

To a native speaker

17

Please, give examples.

Did you graduate from university? or from the university?

It is confusing and almost arbitrary which words can loose the article, (you can go to church, but have to go to the temple and the mosque; you can go upstairs, but have to go to the second floor; you have to go to the bedroom, but can go to bed, or to sleep) but there are common consistencies. However, these are based upon western culture, so are not obvious to learners here in Taiwan. That is why it is important to teach these exceptions, because the rule is too difficult.

Edit: upstair is a preposition so this is not an example.
sleep is a verb in this sentence so is not an example.

18

I have ever been to the school.

19

[quote=“Dead Wizard”]Believe it or not, your publishing company IS correct on this one.
If your going to be using the sentence structure:
“I am going to [insert noun].” then, yes, you do need to have to add the word “THE” before the noun for the sentence to be gramatically correct.
For example:
I am going to THE office.
I am going to THE museum.
I am going to THE movies.

That’s it. Plain and simple.

In this example you’re confusing the word “school” as a verb. It isn’t.
[/quote]
How is he confusing “school” with a verb? In “I’m going to school”, “school” is clearly not a verb, semantically or syntactically. It’s not syntactically equivalent to, say, “I’m going to run”, where “going to” indicates future intent.

[quote=“Dead Wizard”]
The word “school” (schooling, schooled, etc.) is a noun, so therefore you need the “THE”.[/quote]
I’m going to a play.
I’m going to some parties.
I’m going to church.

No, you don’t necessarily need “the” with nouns.

By the way, “schooled” is not a noun, it’s a past participle (and therefore can function as an adjective).

[quote=“Dead Wizard”]
The reason that this confusion arises for the word “school” is because of colloquial reasons. We SAY “I’m going to school” so often now that we THINK it’s correct grammar, but it isn’t. I’m not sure how this confusion ever arose, but I suspect, it has something to do with kids (that includes us during our youths) being lazy and lacking grammatical understanding so we just say “I’m going to school”. Over time it becomes ingrained in our minds that this is, if not correct grammar, at least, acceptable grammar.
What really perplexes me is how I keep seeing this mumbo-jumbo talk about how “it depends on the context of the speech”, which is pure nonsense. It is ALWAYS grammatically wrong to say “I am going to school”. The context that needs consideration here is for what text is such a line appropriate for. If it is for a novel or work of fiction, fine, leave it; if it is for a educational purposes then this line has to be changed.
It’s nice to see that Taiwanese editors are actually good enough to catch this kind of error. I guess since they are not “native” speakers, they are also less prone to mistake acceptable colloquial speech as correct grammar.[/quote]
I disagree with your evaluation. There are certain institutions - usually ones that are frequented - which do not require “the”. Indeed, the inclusion of “the” changes the meaning. These include:

school
church
college
work

20

If dead wizard is correct (which I’m not at all sure about) then the example should be changed because it’s misleading.
That the government academic – god, that looks almost as funny written down – is a moron is possibly beyond question, but the obvious fact that he doesn’t have a fucking clue about English usage is most definitely.

And btw, if there’s only one kid in the pic, all this nitpicking is somewhat besides the point, as by far the biggest error is using “we’re” rather than the correct “I’m.”