Is the Bible anti-gay?

What if my options are to be the gas operator or be gassed myself with my family?

I mean I think there seems to a innate sense of morality. I don’t think saying it’s a function of society is all that great since taken to the extreme like being a child in Nazi Germany. Because even people under Nazi control did go against it because they knew it was wrong under extreme conditioning and constant propaganda. So I’m not morals are purely a social construct.

But I think two interesting people have asked in similar fashions is.

  1. If I had to choose to kill one person or two person. And without knowing anything about them. It seems reasonable to say killing one is better than 2 if I had no choice.
  2. But put that same question into context. If a train is going into the tracks with 2 person if stuck on the tracks and I could turn the train into another track with 1 person on the track. Should I? Did I just kill a person? Because logically 1 person dying seems better than 2. But when we have to make that choice in this particular way. I would think most people have a hard time.

Your questions are not completely on the morality. I don’t want to do anything my inner morality says immoral. But, if there is a more important reason, I would do anything even if it is immoral.

not the only state that has ever waged war. how many died in vietnam? now how about your accounting firm is doing the accounts for an electronics company, and the electronics company are supplying the military, and the the military are starting wars in the middle east.

Another example may be slave trade. At least at one point, Catholic Church allowed it, isn’t it? Morality could be changing on environments.

totally. also hindsight is 20:20 and it is easier to see the wrong in something like that at a distance

There is no objective morality. Emmanuel Kant knew that without a God it would be impossible.

The idea is that it’s the product of our evolved nature as social animals. It’s determined by our nature–our moral sense–to a degree, and by our environment to a degree.

There has been many times a large society of people got together and did what I would consider immoral and even evil. They cooperated to the success of that particular group. They even cooperated to stay alive but yet we now have laws since Nazi germany from the Geneva convention that saying cooperation toward war crimes is still a war crime and it’s not an excuse for say a accountant at a concentration camp to say he was just doing his job.
The problem with this moral sensibility idea is it’s entirely determined by society and our nature.

To me, it looks like the problem, period. Nazi Germany rose up smack in the heart of Christian Europe, where the cumulative effect of over a thousand years of so-called “objective morality” did not seem to have much effect in stopping it. So we’re all in the same boat here.

I’d rather rely on my moral sense. If I simply put my faith in an “objective morality” how am I to know that another “objective morality” won’t come around tomorrow and replace it?

For that matter, how do you know your “objective morality” is good? How do you know God isn’t evil if you’re simply blindly following this morality? Don’t you have to assess it? How are you doing so if so? Did God also give you the moral sense so that you could properly assess his objective morality?

It doesn’t make much sense to me. It looks to me like we just have to rely on our ability to make moral assessments the best we can. Putting faith in an idea like “objective morality” is precisely a path to a dictator’s morality, not a block to it.

  1. I’m not entirely sure our nature is “good”. Maybe it’s not bad not either but I could not say we are innately “good” with any definition of good that I can think of.

We’re human.

If I was a child in Nazi germany. My parents and family were all nazis and fed me Nazi ideas from birth. My friends all also all Nazis, my school was teaching me that the world will be better if we make a pure Race and Jews and gays and gipsys are the problem. They even had “scientific” reasons and philosophical ideas they taught me and it there no other competing ideas. I get sent to hitlers youth camp and even the fuerer himself came and pat me on the back and said Im doing the right thing and it’s good. It will make the world better place. I later become a gas chamber operator at a concentration camp. Am I evil? Because my survival did kinda depend on cooperation. I cooperated with the society I’m in. I though it was for the good and had pure intentions that this was right and it will make the world better. Later even following and cooperation i get punished for crimes against humanity and recieves consequences. What went wrong? Should I have known innately what im doing is wrong? Or is it just moral sensibility and it happens that other people decided I’m wrong? Who’s actually immoral?

I have to say you really go for the home run in your analogies :slight_smile: Yes the gas chamber operators at concentration camps were acting immorally. If they didn’t get it because they were indoctrinated or whatever, tough shit, they should have. Maybe they could think about it before they received whatever brutal retribution they deserved. That’s my assessment and I contend that that one is just not rocket science.

If we wanted to talk about more garden variety crimes, nothing is written in black and white. Is it? I’m missing it if it is. Moral problems require our assessment and we may not always agree. That’s reality.

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It’s actually explicitly condoned in the Bible. The objective morality hadn’t caught up yet at that point apparently :slight_smile:

They generally don’t stick that bit on the big rock outside the courthouse.

My objection is really only to the humans are almost perfect angle.

It sounds like your dog was following its instincts: hunt, guard, and serve Master.

:dog: Look Master, I brought you this delicious squirrel! Am I Good Dog? What, you don’t like squirrel? Okay, well I got rid of this pest for you. Now am I Good Dog?

As for dolphins and whales, I’ve never heard of them being sadistic, but if there’s evidence I’d be interested in reading it. I suspect if they kill something they don’t plan on eating, it’s either for practice or part of the competition of life in the sea, which is like the jungle… :dolphin: :whale: :fish: :tropical_fish: :blowfish: :octopus: :squid: :shark:

That wasn’t my point at all. In celebration of this implicit agreement, I’m going to pop open a Triple.

So, the Bible is not anti-slavery, or clearly allows it. Current fundamental Christians too? Or, current Christiianity doesn’t deny slavery too?

it is interesting that the conversation has moved onto animals because this is where i feel uneasy. its easy to see the wrong in the gas chamber example, because it is pretty clear cut, a person is hitting a button and people are getting it on the neck. the person pushing the button presumably would not like for themselves, and their family to get that same treatment, therefore they are acting with extreme unfairness towards the people on the recieving end. we know it is wrong immediatley because we imagine ourselves in the shoes of the victim and it is horrific.

switch to slaughterhouse. it is a similar situation but now the one on the recieving end is a non human animal. we can really only accep it if we understand that the animal, and their ‘families’ have no feelings or experience, or if we just dont think about their perspective. As humans we are not likely to ever wind up at the recieving end of that, and so there is no immediate tendancy to imagine ourselves into the shoes of the other.

There’s a wide range of views. Some people intent on the idea of an inerrant Bible try to deny it says what it clearly does through various apologetic arguments, usually trying to draw a distinction between how slavery was practiced in those times and more modern forms. I think most evangelist Christians who have taken the time to think about it recognize that it says what it does, in one way or another accept that the Bible in its entirety isn’t an infallible moral guide for today, and move on :+1: Many people will note that the New Testament has superseded the Old. I haven’t heard of a Christian who accepts slavery in this day and age. I guess they are out there, but certainly far out of the mainstream.

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Ephesians 6:5–6:5
5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ;

So, the bible itself is never anti-slavery and past Christianity was pro-slavery too, but today’s Christianity is anti-slavery by many interpretations.

It would not fall within the bell curve of normal sexual activity.

Says who? It’s just about within the 68% deviation and for sure within the 95%.

It falls well within the bell curve of deviant sexual activity. :sunglasses:

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What about all the Christian girls who take it in the ass so they’re still technically “virgins?”

What do they say…poophole’s the loophole.

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See, right away we got a problem here…

That’s pretty catchy. I need to hang out with more Catholic school girls…