Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”][quote=“heimuoshu”][quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”][quote]My God, try to raise the standards and the whole system will fall apart.

Sometimes the rust is all that is holding the old banger together.[/quote]
Actually, I disagree with this statement. There is the old saying ‘If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it.’ But what if it is broken.

And now I may have to eat some crow. Today I asked a Chinese teacher at my school how an ex-pat’s child’s Chinese is. Her reply was that it wasn’t actually all that good. Then, I asked how his English is and she said that it is even worse.
There may be some cultural misunderstandings in my interaction with that Chinese teacher. I have spoken to the child in English on many occasions and his English ability seemed fine to me. Maybe she was only talking about his scores on test and his ability to write. But it would be normal for a seven year old to write English at only a seven year old level. And maybe his ability to write Chinese is better because he is practicing writing Chinese everyday.

Maybe, in trying to get children to read, write, andcommunicate verbally in foreign languages, we are asking too much of them. But I have never seen this kid make a mistake in English, so I wonder what the Chinese teacher is talking about. And my supervisor said his spoken English is fluent, so he doesn’t need to be in my English class.

All that said, I would still ask do any of the people defending the law as it stands if they know for sure that the people who made this law have advanced degrees in education? If they do, have they been in a classroom in the past twenty years, if at all?
As for people who repsonded to my post about research, much teaching theory and practice is made up of two things: one is the research. But the other part is the field practice. Most teaching materials are dreamed up in an office somewhere, but later on they are field tested. And the field testing is the most important part. It is much more important than the ‘research’ done in a lab somewhere at the institute for survey studies.

About all this other stuff about TPR vs TPRS, I think people would do well to read Howard Gardner and his work on different kinds of intelligences. People who are strong in bodily kinesthetic learning may do well with TPR. Personally I consider myself more of a spatial/visual learner. I might do well with a teacher who sets up clear logical steps that I can see on a whiteboard (I wish my Chinese teacher would do this). Maybe people who would do best with TPRS would do better are better at learning by listening.
The problem I have with research and studying is that it doesn’t take into account the individual.[/quote]
How long is this crap going to continue for. I have read and read Gardner over and over. Have you read any of the criticism of his theory. You should because maybe then you’ll understand it better.
Language research isn’t done in a lab. It observes people in real life (the individuals you talk about) and then analyses what happens based on certain variables. You would do much better of you actaully understood what you were talking about. Give us a break here. You clearly are clueless and then you question the qualificatins of people working for the Taiwanese ministry of education. Yes you are right. They are idiots cause they haven’t read Gardner and they’re not white. No complain all you want about how I say things. I don’t care. Get a book and read. Try a research journal first so the next time you complain about research, your opinion wasn’t thought up in starbucks or dante’s with a bunch of other illegal kindy teachers. It is insulting to us who spend hours on research when some guy comes along with an opinion and when we tell them they have no idea what they are talking about everyone gets all excited and tells us to clam down. If you want to crit research, understand it first.[/quote]
You complain that people have insulted you (particularly Big Duke) and then you use the language that you have above. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. First of all, I am not truly questioning the qualifications of people working in the Taiwanese Ministry of Education. I was asking if they have advanced degrees in education. This is something I do not know. Do they have degrees in education? How much time have they spent in the classroom? I don’t know. Can you give me the answer? I have read some research journals and they don’t all reach the same conclusions that you do. Also, one of the first things I was taught about reading research was to always read it critically. I never said they are idiots because they haven’t read Gardner. I said he is a good person to read for a different opinion of intelligence. I was saying that it sounds like TPR and TPRS both have their advantages.
You don’t know me and know nothing of my qualifications. For the record, I do not work in a kindergarten because I don’t have time (I work many different jobs. All legal. All in the afternoon). My how you race to conclusions. I spend my mornings working on a Master’s Degree at the moment at a reasonable uni here in Taiwan. No CELTA yet, but that is coming this summer. I have done some prepreratory research for it, just to be ready when I really get to work on it. Were you also implying that I am a racist, because the people I was criticizing are non-white? WOW :noway: ! You really have no idea how to control yourself. It has nothing to do with what race they are. Otherwise, why am I over here. I really think you read too much into-and mis-understand what I am saying.
You also seem to think that just because you have an advanced degree means that anyone who disagrees with you is absolutely wrong. Your DELTA seems to have made you hair-trigger sensitive. There are alternative ways of seeing things you know.
And you also seem to have missed the top part of my post were I was actually questioning some of what I said earlier about children acquiring a language at an early age (actually I am shocked you missed it). I hope that when I finish my Master’s Degree and CELTA that I will never use that as an excuse to think that I know everything.
BTW, did you see that part at the top were I did disagree with something Big Duke said? Nope. You missed that part. You miss all of the areas were people might possibly disagree with you because you are so sensitive.

I really think you should reconsider Xanax. That other drug you mentioned doesn’t seem to be working.[/quote]

You disagreed with me. :fume:

I now declare you my sworn enemy and call you an asshole for disagreeing with my obviously correct view of this situation and the world in general. Delta, Celta, Shmelta!!!

BTW, I feel a Xanax enema would be a better choice.

Well isnt the reason they dont want English taught in kindy because the people in the ministry of educatioun want the kids to use the time to focus on learning Mandarin, which for many kids is already a second language as it’s not their native language. So why force a 3rd language on them as well?

So you snitched and had a couple of people deported before does that mean we should all assume you are a person of questionable character?[/quote]
First of all, that happened in Korea and not in Taiwan. Have you ever been there. The rules are a little different there.
The person who I snitched on beat up his girlfriend :fume: . He did this in the place where I was living no less. I didn’t go to the police with this because I was advised that this would be viewed as a problem between him and I :unamused: had I gone to them, and the girlfriend would be of no help, because she would blame herself for the abuse and his throwing her across the bedroom and smacking her head into the doorknob :fume: . This guy was a threat to the personal safety of many people. Myself included. He also vandalized about 1,000 dollars of my stuff. Many people wanted this guy gone. When I finally stepped up and did something it turned out the Korean FAP had actually wanted this guy out of the country and were looking for a reason to get rid of him. In the foreign community there I was viewed as a hero :discodance: .[/quote]

No need to be upset. You did it because you viewed the guy as a menace and a threat. But the woman though no fault of her own also got deported yes?

If the Korean FAP had wanted him out they could have done so at anytime without any real reason. Yes I have been in Korea. I am sure you are a hero, we all are when we do the right thing.
[/quote]
Thanks SatTV. It’s just that telling that story is always a cathartic experience for me :frowning: . You are right. I need to get some fresh mountain air… and a hug :cry: .

If it is a matter of time for other subjects, I can kind of understand. I don’t agree with people who say that learning English is screwing with other people’s heads.
BTW why don’t Korea and Japan have similar laws :ponder: ?

[quote=“heimuoshu”]How long is this crap going to continue for. I have read and read Gardner over and over. Have you read any of the criticism of his theory. You should because maybe then you’ll understand it better.
Language research isn’t done in a lab. It observes people in real life (the individuals you talk about) and then analyses what happens based on certain variables. You would do much better of you actaully understood what you were talking about. Give us a break here. You clearly are clueless and then you question the qualificatins of people working for the Taiwanese ministry of education. Yes you are right. They are idiots cause they haven’t read Gardner and they’re not white. No complain all you want about how I say things. I don’t care. Get a book and read. Try a research journal first so the next time you complain about research, your opinion wasn’t thought up in starbucks or dante’s with a bunch of other illegal kindy teachers. It is insulting to us who spend hours on research when some guy comes along with an opinion and when we tell them they have no idea what they are talking about everyone gets all excited and tells us to clam down. If you want to crit research, understand it first.[/quote]
I promised myself that I wouldn’t respond to any more of your posts in this thread, but this is ridiculous. Your tone is rubbing everyone the wrong way. You need to find a better way to express your opinions. The “I know everything and you know nothing because I say so” approach isn’t working. Do you seriously believe that you are the only person here who has read the above mentioned research? Some people have a different opinion than yours. Get over it. You’ve already stated that you teach kindergarten classes here. That makes you a hypocrite of the worst kind.

[quote=“funkymonkey”][quote=“heimuoshu”]How long is this crap going to continue for. I have read and read Gardner over and over. Have you read any of the criticism of his theory. You should because maybe then you’ll understand it better.
Language research isn’t done in a lab. It observes people in real life (the individuals you talk about) and then analyses what happens based on certain variables. You would do much better of you actaully understood what you were talking about. Give us a break here. You clearly are clueless and then you question the qualificatins of people working for the Taiwanese ministry of education. Yes you are right. They are idiots cause they haven’t read Gardner and they’re not white. No complain all you want about how I say things. I don’t care. Get a book and read. Try a research journal first so the next time you complain about research, your opinion wasn’t thought up in starbucks or dante’s with a bunch of other illegal kindy teachers. It is insulting to us who spend hours on research when some guy comes along with an opinion and when we tell them they have no idea what they are talking about everyone gets all excited and tells us to clam down. If you want to crit research, understand it first.[/quote]
I promised myself that I wouldn’t respond to any more of your posts in this thread, but this is ridiculous. Your tone is rubbing everyone the wrong way. You need to find a better way to express your opinions. The “I know everything and you know nothing because I say so” approach isn’t working. Do you seriously believe that you are the only person here who has read the above mentioned research? Some people have a different opinion than yours. Get over it. You’ve already stated that you teach kindergarten classes here. That makes you a hypocrite of the worst kind.[/quote]
I am a hypocrite. I teach 30 to 60 minutes a week of English. Not kindergarten classes. I claim to be an English teacher not a kindy teacher. My original point again is not against learning English, but against having unqualified people spend an extended amount of time with kindergarten children. Yet that does not mean I am not a hypocrite. I am.
The critics of Gardner’s theories are not your everyday English teacher and yes I am very sure that most people who quote Gardner have never read his books. They have read about his theory in other books maybe, but not the actual Gardner books.
The notion that we shouldn’t trust research because it doesn’t this and that is counterproductive to progress in the academic world. Yes everyone has an opinion. It doesn’t mean they are right.
I am sure not everyone in the MoE has advanced degrees in education. Only the advisors and some of the policy makers do.
I know very well that my tone makes me look bad. I have tried Xanax but it didn’t work for me. The newer medicine makes me a nice person in real life but a prick online. I can live with that.

WLL I wasnt being critical of your actions. Come up for some fresh air. Should be a few forumosans up in my village 31 December as we have a big New years party on up there and the village people sure do know how to party.

They sure do

:discodance:

There are so many other more important issues with the childhood education that have to be addressed.
Why is this so thematized?

What does a degree in childhood education worth if you are running groups with more than 25 kids?
If parents can call during the day and take this teacher away for up to 30 minutes at a time?
Plus the report writing and other tasks that multiply by 25. Any activity you do will leave some kids left out also.

In some areas are too many kindergartens competing and the full force of the free marked is played out on the kids.
Budget cuts here and cuts there. Putting kids of different ages and levels together because there are not enough to fill each class.
Turning off the air-conditioning. Lack of toys and materials.

Shouldn’t they control first how many kindergartens can be licensed in certain areas in order to maintain a healthy competition?

You can theorize here for another 20 pages weather English is good or bad for kids. Parents with money will hire an overseas nanny with no education and provide their kids with the attention needed to develop into a competitive human.

We live in a more and more competitive world and getting your kids ahead of the others is more important than ever. If you are trying to bring ethics into play here, you are living on the wrong planet or better in the wrong country with no natural resources.

I want my kid to have a childhood free of pressure and free and beautiful etc. I can see that in Canada or even somewhere in Europe or the US but here in Asia it’s either getting under or putting some real effort very early on. And teaching in Kindergartens becomes more an issue of minimizing the stress put on the little learners.
That’s what it is all about or am I catching this wrong here.
Just some real and imaginary names for kindergarten chains in Taiwan.
Jump-start
Head-start
Number one
Success
The academy for young learners
Left lane
High fly

Or

Fantasy land
The happy garden
Flower power
Happy kids
Adventure park

WLL I wasn’t being critical of your actions. Come up for some fresh air. Should be a few forumosans up in my village 31 December as we have a big New years party on up there and the village people sure do know how to party.[/quote]

I never said you were being critical of my actions. I just don’t like remembering that story.

Ma Ying-Jeou hasn’t given up his green card status yet…it just expired on him :ponder: :ponder: :ohreally:

dazlaw.com/index.php?option= … &Itemid=54

“If you don’t apply for a reentry permit before you leave for a year-long trip, or you plan to be out of the United States for more than two years, there is another option available. You may apply for a returning resident visa, known as an SB-1 visa, while you are abroad. However, it is important to note that returning resident visas are not automatically granted. In order to receive one, you must show that you did not intend to give up your U.S. permanent resident status. This is often done by demonstrating the ties that you still have to the United States, such as property ownership, bank accounts and credit cards, and immediate family members still living in the U.S.”

I have read one of his books.

I know of a few parents who are asking their Phillipino nannies to tutor their children in English. Is this technically illegal?

Why would it be? They are taking care of the kids and nannies helping with homework and such is part of the duties they perform.

I didn’t let my Pinoy housekeeper teach my son English as he was at a Japanese kindy.

Can somebody please tell me if teaching English to children under six is so bad, then why, as far as I know, haven’t Japan and Korea followed suit and made it illegal in their countries as well? English is as different from their languages as night is from day and I am sure that there are people in their ministries of education who are ‘educational experts’ with doctoral degrees and such. Shouldn’t Japan and Korea also make sure that no Gaijin and Waigooken teach their children English, lest it screw up their ability to acquire their mother language? Or maybe the Japanese and Koreans just don’t care about their children as much as the Taiwanese do.

Taiwan is rife with urban myths which have little basis in fact but have come to be accepted as gospel truth. For example, one should not look to one’s left while pulling out of a junction because that will make you have an accident. It’s a fact. Everyone says so.

My information is ~15 years out of date, and I slept through an awful lot of lectures at uni, but I recall that simultaneous acquisition of two languages either has cognitive benefits (apart from being able to speak two languages, obviously) or has no detrimental effect on the ‘primary’ language. The only noticeable effect is that very young kids exposed to multiple languages tend to start speaking later. Learning three languages can produce subtle ‘interference’ effects; two languages seem to be spatially separated in the brain, whereas a third gets squeezed in whereever.

I suppose the confusion arises because there are so many different ways to acquire a second language, and the outcome depends on the precise method used. In Taiwan, learning a language is very much an academic exercise, and TPTB probably (rightly) assume that under-sixes shouldn’t be subjected to academic pressure. If that’s so, they’ve completely missed the point.

Anyway, I thought it was only illegal for ARC-holding foreigners to teach kindergarten English? In which case, the reason is probably political rather than practical.

I think it is illegal for everybody, but only non-marriage ARC holders will get into trouble for it.

They are in Korea. South Korean officials are constantly trying to institute reforms against free-market hagwons because they are seeping attention away from public schooling, engaging in borderline abusive practices, and demonstrably failing to improve the foreign language skills of their students by ignoring even the most basic concepts of curriculum development and forcibly walling employees from saying anything that would not satisfy the parental ego and risk a drop in student intake. I would sometimes eye my former boss and just wonder, “Oh my God! Really? You’re such a fucking con artist!” When the primary focus of the major hagwons is not to give too many hung over employees and sex offenders access to their youths, maybe something can be said in light of the OP’s stereotyping.

But Korea is prime training ground for business strategy, specifically strategies of digging up as much reputation-damaging dirt on a conning company as soon as one possibly can. If they’re expecting a participant in their racket, they’d better offer a princely package. And thanks to camera phones, it’s easy to blackmail hagwon owners. It’s also easy to use their own CCTV systems to shame owners into line for failing to institute any classroom behavior policies, when at the same time they bar their employees from disciplining the students.

But like most foreigners who go to Korea, I wanted money only, and I wanted it so that I could fund my plans in this country.

Learning English at a young age is good. No-one disputes that. Having your childhood dominated by a language you don’t understand is not good. I think they should allow some English in kindergartens but ban the kindy’s where the kids have more than 3 hours or 4 hours a week of “English” and replace those with real kindergartens. As for the other question mentioned.
It is illegal to have English in kindy’s. Therefore if a local or JFRC or APRC holder gets ‘caught’ in a kindy, the kindy is breaking the law and not so much the teacher. The kindy gets fined and not much happens to the teacher.
Now since it is illegal, kindy’s can not supply an ARC. Therefore if an ARC worker is caught in a kindy, they can not have an ARC from that kindy and would therefore be working illergally which is a deportable offense.