[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]
Are you going to tell me that a government official, who may or may not have an advanced degree in education knows what type of education is better for a child than a parent does? A person who may or may not have a degree in education (and may not have set foot in a classroom in the past twenty years) and who wants to sit behind a desk and make a bureaucratic law knows what is better for a child than the person loves, cares for everyday, and gave birth to them does? Such things lead to totalitarianism.
Finally, I also think you need to take a chill pill. You really seem to get agitated that people disagree with you, yet I am hardly upset that you disagree with me. You have a different opinion than mine. Like Big Duke said, take a Xanax. Heck take two. If you need some, pm me and I’ll put you in touch with a doctor in Taichung who can give you some.[/quote]
On an individual level maybe not, but considering that government officials run the entire country and make laws and decisions for the entire country…absolutely they know better.
I don’t get agitated when people disagree with me. I get agitated when people fail to look at facts and then try to find ways around them by looking at individual isolated cases. Great video you posted. I bet my last dollar the teachers that teach there are qualified to teach, which would explain the results. Results you usually don’t get here.
Xanax sucks. I am on Venforspine and if you google it don’t worry. I’m not suicidal.
[quote=“ironlady”]
And immersion is still not necessarily the only or the best way to acquire a language, given the very different situations most people are in compared to a child growing up in a language-rich environment interacting with native speakers of all the language s/he is to acquire – which is real immersion.[/quote]
This is what I’m talking about (thank you for pointing this out).
This, IMHO, is the only way for most people (not all) to acquire a new language. All that 2nd language learning in school is of no use if it’s not being practiced/utilized in the real world, period.
How many of us honestly have learned a 2nd language (or a 3rd) in school but ended up forgetting most of it because we don’t really use it?
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]Here is an example of a dual-language immersion school in America. I know that this is propaganda put out by the school, but it doesn’t look like these kids are being particularly hurt by it. Listen partilcularly to what the woman says around the 7:44 mark. I’ll paraphrase her by saying these students are doing so much more than we give them credit for.
One sure way to screw this up would be to test them and give them a grade on it :no-no:.
[/quote]
The kids are already screwed by learning Chinese in a non-Chinese environment. The minute they graduate from that class, more than 60% of the materials would have left their feeble brains.
Utilized Chinese in Alabama recently? :ohreally:
Same scenario here but reverse the language situation and you get the picture of why the 'wan govt is adamant on removing English from kindy.
Yet it doesn’t take the next logical step and remove it from elementary, junior and senior high school, as well as university as a compulsory subject!
Offer it as an elective for people who are really interested in it, and make sure the teachers are trained exceptionally well and the materials used in class (and the tests) are of high quality. At the moment, they’re teaching a whole lot of people really badly. Better to concentrate on fewer people (who want to be there) and do it really well for those people.
I wouldn’t go that far but I know a few people here who have reached (CEFR) a C2 level of proficiency without living abroad. With all the books, movies and Internet available, it is not impossible to get to a near native like level without living abroad. I even know a teacher who has taught students up to C1 (Cambridge Advanced) and IELTS 7.5 and 8 and he has never lived abroad. His English is excellent and so are his students’.
Sure, but the trouble is that everyone else labours – grinds might be a better word – through the worst Chinglish possible. A student brought me a test worksheet yesterday. About 25% of the questions were bad questions that contained spelling errors (that made more than one answer possible), questions with two possible answers, questions with grammatical errors that made no answers possible, questions based on a reading with “correct” answers that were not in the reading and weren’t implied by the reading, etc. This morning, the student and I went to his teacher and I explained the problem(s) with each question. She said she’d look into it, which really meant she’ll do no such thing. It will be business as usual. Why? Because I can tell that she understands about 25% of what I say to her when I speak to her. I also know that if I asked her to do anything other than a cloze test herself (i.e. write something real such as a letter or essay), she’d struggle. In other words, her own understanding of English is tenuous, at best.
Further to that, a couple of weeks ago, I looked at some of the student workbooks at my elementary school. They belonged to third or fourth grade students (I forget which, but in either case, the English was very low level). One workbook had been done by the teacher to figure out the answers. The English (and it was just for cloze test answers) was terrible. There was literally a problem with every second answer.
It’s the blind leading the bloody blind in this country most of the time. They won’t throw some decent money at attracting and/or training the best of the best, yet English Villages (which cost somewhere in the vicinity of 30 million NTD to set up and run for the first five years) are popping up all over the place.
In my opinion(As I said, my opinion), to many people look at this from a purely academic POV, and not from a practical, real world POV.
Unless you are planning to do a PHD in English, the goal is effective communication. Whether you like it or not, English is the one international language. This is why parents want their kids to learn English. It opens up plenty of future opportunities for them which would not be available if they did not have the language.
As I said in an earlier post, communication is the key in the real world.
There are millions of people around the world (Taiwan, Germany, France, Holland, Croatia, Iceland, Finland. This list goes on and on BTW) that speak their own version of Chinglish as English is not their mother tongue. This enables them to communicate across what would otherwise be huge language barriers.
I have seen this first hand on thousands of occasions.
Is there English perfect? No.
Do they make mistakes with grammar? Yes.
Do they sometimes not know a specific word? Yes.
However, they can still catch a taxi, do business, have a conversation, get directions somewhere etc etc etc.
Again, the systems here might leave a lot do be desired. From kindy up to postgraduate level.
As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.
Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.
Edit: I would like to thank heimuoshu for messaging me to tell me I typed “there” instead of “their”.
[quote=“bigduke6”]As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.
Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.[/quote]
Honestly, no one in this entire thread is an expert (no matter how much chest thumping they do). We can only give our opinions based on personal experience. My belief is that teaching English to young learners is in no way harmful. I would say it’s actually the opposite. Being a good kindergarten teacher doesn’t simply mean having a piece of paper with a nice stamp on it.
[quote=“funkymonkey”][quote=“bigduke6”]As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.
Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.[/quote]
Honestly, no one in this entire thread is an expert (no matter how much chest thumping they do). We can only give our opinions based on personal experience. My belief is that teaching English to young learners is in no way harmful. I would say it’s actually the opposite. Being a good kindergarten teacher doesn’t simply mean having a piece of paper with a nice stamp on it.[/quote]
Having a medical degree doesn’t make one a good doctor either. Teaching must be the only profession that is routinely regarded in this way.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”][quote=“funkymonkey”][quote=“bigduke6”]As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.
Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.[/quote]
Honestly, no one in this entire thread is an expert (no matter how much chest thumping they do). We can only give our opinions based on personal experience. My belief is that teaching English to young learners is in no way harmful. I would say it’s actually the opposite. Being a good kindergarten teacher doesn’t simply mean having a piece of paper with a nice stamp on it.[/quote]
Having a medical degree doesn’t make one a good doctor either. Teaching must be the only profession that is routinely regarded in this way.[/quote]
Maybe it’s because there isn’t one perfect way to teach every student. As you know, different methods are always needed depending on the student. A broken leg can be treated pretty much the same way every time. It’s something that can be mastered. I think teachers need to be more flexible and constantly adapt. It’s difficult to be an expert in that.
funkymonkey: Nonsense. Medicine is not an exact science and there’s plenty of room for misdiagnosis or bad practice. There are people who can pass medical exams, but are absolutely terrible at actually working as doctors. The reason doctors are better at what they do is twofold. Firstly, they receive much longer and more intensive training. Secondly, there are much better incentives for attracting the bright, ambitious, etc. to medicine.
Anyway, that’s beside the point. There are things that are more and less effective in teaching. There are educational theories, and there is educational research to back certain things up. There’s this great meme in the English speaking world that people can walk into a classroom without having had exposure to any of the research, without any training, without any coaching, without any observation, without feedback, etc. and just be a fantastic teacher just because that person is inherently a fantastic teacher. As though anyone could just do any really complicated job well simply because they’re inherently fantastic. Some people can be good teachers without training, but they’d be better teachers if they went through a process. That does not imply that everyone who receives training will be a good teacher, just as training in any other profession does not imply greatness or competence either, though if the training is rigorous, it should weed out most of the bad people.
The results of this are really telling in the English speaking world. There is a complete disdain for teachers in English speaking countries, and yet people won’t acknowledge that some countries, such as Finland, have such successful education systems precisely because teachers receive a lot of training and are well-regarded by the rest of society. No, of course, lots of people in English speaking countries just want to talk about how crappy teachers are, and how teacher training doesn’t mean anything, when the teacher training is woefully inadequate and the incentives for bright, motivated people to enter (and remain in) teaching simply aren’t there in English speaking countries. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy of idiocy. Furthermore, the people who make these kinds of comments that one doesn’t need any kind of training to be a teacher are the kinds of people who would never set foot in a classroom in a school in a bad neighbourhood. They would never send their kids there either. Increasingly, the middle class won’t discipline their own kids in the home, and then have the gall to complain about a lack of discipline in school (and will also complain if their little darlings are singled out for poor behaviour). It’s intellectual and moral laziness of the highest order. They’ll complain all day about how easy it is, or how the system is a joke, yet they won’t actually do anything to address that.
What’s so bizarre in Taiwan is that in the public sector, people actually do have a lot of respect for teachers, yet in the private sector, the Anglosphere’s mindset seems to have taken hold. There are all sorts of flaws in the Taiwanese government education system, but you can be sure that if Taiwanese mathematics or science or history teachers at junior high school used giant squeaky hammers or sticky balls and played lots of games, the parents would be up in arms about it. Funny that.
This is really what this thread is about. Few people here would want their own kids educated in the way EFL is taught in this country. It’s okay to them though because they have a vested financial interest, and besides, it’s only Taiwan. Who cares if there are standards, right? There’s no shortage of people on these forums complaining about how shit the Taiwanese police are, or how bad the roads/architecture/pollution/corruption/labour laws/whatever is/are, and generally complaining about how stupid Taiwanese people are or how they don’t think about things, but many of the serial complainers fall quiet on the issue of education here precisely because of their huge vested interest in maintaining that. Such people are no different to the politician awarding a government contract to his buddy: corrupt to the core.
There ya go. Prob’ly impossible to cure that bad of a case of the literary vapors, but I think I got it considerably closer to something like the truth.
Some of you fellows might need to switch to decaf.
Teaching is unique insofar as everyone has spent a significant amount of time in their lives observing the skill. Many people could walk into a classroom and do a good job because they spent most of their youths watching the skill of teaching in practice. The craft of teaching is not as esoteric and inaccessible as other professions. People didn’t spend 12+ years of their lives observing engineers doing their jobs, now did they? And, when we get right down to it, teaching is at its essence simply presenting information in such a way as another person can learn it.
Anyway, we’re going OT with this line. Educators are educators. Language teaching and being a language teacher in Taiwan are different beasts altogether, much as some would rather not admit to it.
Just replace “teacher” with “politican” and you just described the underpinnings of western representative democracy
CJ, I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Although I’ve met some smart and dedicated foreign teachers here, they’re in the minority, and after a few years they get bitter and cynical. I’m frequently appalled at the attitude and skills of (some) foreign english teachers I bump into from time to time, who are unqualified, can’t even use their own language correctly (check out the thread on “rhetorical” questions), and have no intention of improving their professional skills. Without the bizarre attitudes to education (and EFL in particular) that persist in Taiwan, those guys would be cleaning toilets or sweeping politicians’ yards. EDIT: re funkymonkey’s comment, that could explain why Taiwanese teachers dismiss foreign teachers as “not real”. It’s because too many of them are not. The fact that the system permits these people to teach is beside the point: they’re tarnishing the reputation of those who are real teachers - or who at least can use their own language well (like funkymoney ).
OTOH I can see less of a problem letting those guys teach kindergarten. They would be (are) hopeless at teaching formal classes, but little kids are quite happy to just goof around and will absorb the language by osmosis, even if their teacher’s diction is a bit off.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]funkymonkey: Nonsense. Medicine is not an exact science and there’s plenty of room for misdiagnosis or bad practice. There are people who can pass medical exams, but are absolutely terrible at actually working as doctors. The reason doctors are better at what they do is twofold. Firstly, they receive much longer and more intensive training. Secondly, there are much better incentives for attracting the bright, ambitious, etc. to medicine.
Anyway, that’s beside the point. There are things that are more and less effective in teaching. There are educational theories, and there is educational research to back certain things up. There’s this great meme in the English speaking world that people can walk into a classroom without having had exposure to any of the research, without any training, without any coaching, without any observation, without feedback, etc. and just be a fantastic teacher just because that person is inherently a fantastic teacher. As though anyone could just do any really complicated job well simply because they’re inherently fantastic. Some people can be good teachers without training, but they’d be better teachers if they went through a process. That does not imply that everyone who receives training will be a good teacher, just as training in any other profession does not imply greatness or competence either, though if the training is rigorous, it should weed out most of the bad people.
The results of this are really telling in the English speaking world. There is a complete disdain for teachers in English speaking countries, and yet people won’t acknowledge that some countries, such as Finland, have such successful education systems precisely because teachers receive a lot of training and are well-regarded by the rest of society. No, of course, lots of people in English speaking countries just want to talk about how crappy teachers are, and how teacher training doesn’t mean anything, when the teacher training is woefully inadequate and the incentives for bright, motivated people to enter (and remain in) teaching simply aren’t there in English speaking countries. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy of idiocy. Furthermore, the people who make these kinds of comments that one doesn’t need any kind of training to be a teacher are the kinds of people who would never set foot in a classroom in a school in a bad neighbourhood. They would never send their kids there either. Increasingly, the middle class won’t discipline their own kids in the home, and then have the gall to complain about a lack of discipline in school (and will also complain if their little darlings are singled out for poor behaviour). It’s intellectual and moral laziness of the highest order. They’ll complain all day about how easy it is, or how the system is a joke, yet they won’t actually do anything to address that.
What’s so bizarre in Taiwan is that in the public sector, people actually do have a lot of respect for teachers, yet in the private sector, the Anglosphere’s mindset seems to have taken hold. There are all sorts of flaws in the Taiwanese government education system, but you can be sure that if Taiwanese mathematics or science or history teachers at junior high school used giant squeaky hammers or sticky balls and played lots of games, the parents would be up in arms about it. Funny that.
This is really what this thread is about. Few people here would want their own kids educated in the way EFL is taught in this country. It’s okay to them though because they have a vested financial interest, and besides, it’s only Taiwan. Who cares if there are standards, right? There’s no shortage of people on these forums complaining about how shit the Taiwanese police are, or how bad the roads/architecture/pollution/corruption/labour laws/whatever is/are, and generally complaining about how stupid Taiwanese people are or how they don’t think about things, but many of the serial complainers fall quiet on the issue of education here precisely because of their huge vested interest in maintaining that. Such people are no different to the politician awarding a government contract to his buddy: corrupt to the core.[/quote]
Who pissed in your cereal today? I agree with most of what you wrote. I wasn’t trying to start an argument with you.
Teachers here need more encouragement, support, and value. I can’t tell you how many times students have told me that their Taiwanese teachers tell them to not listen to the foreign teacher because they are not “real” teachers. Perhaps what would draw more people into education and keep them would be the recognition that what they know and do is valuable. We need the support of the public. However, in Taiwan, many of them don’t view us as “real” teachers either. This kind of value and support, or lack thereof, is also represented financially. Case in point: emphasizing financial incentives designed to reward some teachers and not others, rather than placing a higher value on the teaching profession in general by offering more competitive compensation. Teachers must feel that they are valued as professionals and individuals and in our society, that begins with the size of the paycheck. If teachers were properly respected, they would be paid a respectable salary, with opportunity for advancement, without monetary penalty for student failure. If teachers were properly respected, they wouldn’t overcrowd the classrooms and then complain that the teachers aren’t doing a good enough job.
Why is there a disdain for teachers? Maybe the looks of “disdain” are more along the lines of “Why would you subject yourself to dealing with 30 kids all day for $35,000 a year?” I don’t think it’s so much people looking down on us as them not comprehending that some people have the patience and desire to work with kids. There are students, teachers, people who don’t respect others or themselves. Those people exist in the world.
:no-no: You teach here. Surely you get paid for it. What have you done in Taiwan to change the Taiwanese education system? Aren’t you a part of the problem as well? Would you say you are corrupt to the core? You wanted and received a job in an industry which you are now condemning. Seems hypocritical, no?
Oh, it was nothing. I was just shooting the breeze. Besides, I wouldn’t want to do anything to hinder the progress of the thread. I figure if this thing goes to thirty pages, I may get to read comparisons involving Pol Pot or the like.
[quote=“PigBloodCake”][quote=“bigduke6”]
Edit: I would like to thank heimuoshu for messaging me to tell me I typed “there” instead of “their”.[/quote]
Its a common mistake [/quote]
Which is exactly what I typed in the PM. I also said that there is no need to do what others have done and rip a spelling error or grammar error, that is easy to make when typing, apart and that most of us make that mistake at least once a week.
Bigduke told me to get a life. Thought I was being nice.
On another point, yes an expert in Lithuanian Tax would not automatically be an expert at Taiwanese Tax but he would know a hell of lot more about it and be much better at analyzing it than some guy that has lived here and paid tax for 20 years.
funkymonkey: Apologies for going in a bit hard at you.
I have actually discussed my role in the Taiwanese education system on a number of occasions, with two main points of discussion.
Firstly, I have tried to get a professional development programme going for the FETIT programme here in Taidong County. I organised one such workshop that took place a few weeks ago. However, due to financial constraints, it’s next to impossible to really get anything ongoing to occur. In short, they want to pay 1,600NTD/hour and they’re not willing to fly anyone out here (they only provide internal transportation). As such, they’re always going to struggle to get any kind of professional development programme off the ground, so unsurprisingly, they don’t. Furthermore, any professional development that does occur is more for curiosity’s sake than anything else. There is no requirement to attend and there is no mandatory implementation. Also, for what it’s worth, I and others have been met with a considerable amount of hostility by other teachers who won’t admit that they and I alike are hopelessly underqualified for teaching EFL and could do with some professional development.
Secondly, I’ve discussed at length the financial costs for someone to actually fund their own professional development vs the financial rewards for doing so. The timeline to break even is at least a decade for a Master’s, but quite possibly longer, and would entail going abroad for some time to do so. Things like CELTA or DELTA are not recognised within the government system.
In both cases, the Taiwanese government will not commit the funds to raising professional standards here, and so there’s either no incentive for people to become (better) qualified, or if they do become (better) qualified, there are equal or better incentives in plenty of other countries.
As git says there is basically zero incentive to improve you teaching credentials.
You are better off betting on a 3 legged mule in the Grand National.
:ohreally:
I agree with most of what you wrote. I wasn’t trying to start an argument with you.