Meanwhile in Catalonia...


#261

The before/after pic is amazing xD

Charlie Hebdo criticized Catalonia? Well, it’s set now, Catalonia’s indipendence has all my support. Since 1500bc, when the Barcelona-born Julius Caesar sent the first space mission to Mars, Catalonia has always been a lighthouse of freedom and democracy. The fact that they’re now being oppressed by Trump is a shame and we must support their independence from Andorra.


#262

They don’t agree on the Andorra part.


#263

They want a Califate of Catalonia and Andorra?


#264

They need to make sure that their money in Andorra is safe and accessible, so for the moment they still depend on them :smiley:


#265

Some facts on Catalonia and its situation:

A decent article on what happened the other day (heaven’t read it completely, no time!):


#266

Just so we’re clear, everybody: you don’t negotiate with people who are beating you up. He’s not going to negotiate with you. Negotiation and fighting don’t work if you try to do them both at the same time.

Also, you don’t negotiate with someone whom you’re beating up. There’s no point.

Negotiation happens before violence - to prevent it - or after violence - to agree that both sides have had enough. Unless and until both sides want peace, there’s nothing to negotiate.

Negotiation is about hammering out the details after both sides have already agreed that they’ve been fighting enough.

Capitulation is not the same thing as negotiation.


#267

Wrong theard. see contents in Foreign aggression thread


#268

Uhm…wrong thread ?_?


#269

Oh yeah, my bad. Just having coffee. Has not starting making effect.


#270

Interestingly enough what most of the people say is that there’s nothing to negotiate. A regional government has been working on the shadow towards secession, using public money and resources, conspiring against the country, and now they have declared (and suspended) a “republic”. Obviously if they declare the independence there’s nothing to negotiate with them, not with those actors.

Again, it’s not Catalonia, it’s the politicians and public servants who committed sedition. And if you are going to talk about “people”, the independence never reached not even a 50% in any survey, poll, voting, elections, “referendum” or anything. I know that the marketing campaign that the independentists have made is good, but come on, how can so many people oversee this fact…

As for the violence and repression, the local government gave instructions to the hospitals and healthcare workers to count ALL the issues 1-O related. The count went super high due to more than dubious practices denounced by hospital workers, like counting people with anxiety, dehydration, and what not. The local government claimed a “massacre” of almost 1,000 “dead”. Reality says something very different: only 2 people, TWO PEOPLE, were hospitalized. One of them because of a heart attack suffered when watching the events. Many pictures and videos of the same scenes form different angles. Many videos and many pictures of DIFFERENT demonstrations, from other years, some of them in Catalonia, showing the local police hitting the poor and noble Catalan people… lol. Oh, irony.

What’s next? to intervene the autonomy. Why? because it’s what the law says: if a regional government acts persistently against the law, and doesn’t correct their behaviour, it will be suspended. This has happened in other countries too, like in UK, 3 times (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/14/qanda.northernireland).

Puigdemont and Junts per Si have fucked up big time, but they play their cards not bad. Banks and other businesses are moving their headquarters or even the companies outside Catalonia, because of the lack of legal protection (the local government has acted against all the possible laws, even their own laws), the radical CUP is talking about controlling people’s cash movements and expropriating companies, documents inculpating of sedition are being found by the police, the secession doesn’t count with the support of Europe as the politicians have been telling their people… but some people keep talking about an oppressed (yet nonexistent) nation of prosperous future.


#271

Are there going to be cute Catalonian girl refugees moving to other European countries? My friends back there wouldn’t mind!


#272

The Chosen Nation will have their Diaspora :grinning:


#273

Which public?

And can you define this “public” in such a way that it’s more than a mere political/social construct?


#274

Right, 'cause the last thing anyone wants when talking about politics is a political construct. :whistle:


#275

If you have citizens who make a public donation, that’s private money. Taxes, governmental institutions, etc… that’s public. I’m not going to enter a silly discussion about what was first, if the egg of the hen.


#276

The creators of value came first. The government came second, and turned the creators of value into taxpayers.

They create value and pay taxes in Catalonia. That’s one public. But I suspect you have some other public in mind.

A government is just another special interest. Never forget that, boys and girls.


#277

They create value and pay taxes in Spain. And you can interpret this in two ways: that Ctalonia is Spain, and that they actually pay taxes in Spain, to the central government.

However, I don’t even know why I reply what seems totally pointless.


#278

Which is highly problematic. When you have fifth columns in the regional bureaucracy, you need punitive centralism.


#279

Whenever someone says “we’re all in this together” he’s planning to take your money.

When the police truncheons come out, that’s when you know we are not, in fact, all in this together.

A wise man does business only with those who don’t try to tell him that we’re all in this together.

Never forget that society is a social construct, and one man’s sedition is another man’s freedom.


#280

Who, exactly, needs it? And for what purpose?