Meanwhile in Catalonia...


#301

Remember I read the papers, not only social media, mostly from the Spanish side.


#302

Not sure which ones you read, seriously. Otherwise you would be aware of all the FACTS that I’m saying and that you are not. Just to mention one: the support that the government has for applying 155.


#303

The “facts” are hard to understand in that tone. That is my point. If you want to establish dialogue, you cannot make a whole people enemy of the whole couuntry.


#304

Second time that I bring up this…

La Guardia Civil encontró en el domicilio del secretario general de Vicepresidencia, Economía y Hacienda de la Generalitat, Josep Maria Jové, el plan secreto diseñado milimétricamente por los partidos nacionalistas para proclamar la independencia de Cataluña. La estrategia, bautizada con el nombre de #EnfoCATs, vaticina que la declaración unilateral de independencia (DUI) que planea proclamar este martes el Gobierno de Carles Puigdemont “generará un conflicto que bien gestionado puede llevar a un Estado propio porque el Estado español no reconocerá el derecho a hacer un referéndum pero, si lo ve todo perdido, lo hará hacer para que lo perdamos”.

Sorry, WHO do you say that is trying to split society, and make “Spain” hate “Catalonia”?

The only people who assume that the separatists represent Catalonia are… the separatists.


#305

Eh so Spanish media is being tricked and playing into their game? That si what I said above.

So the plan is going viento en popa. Now what?


#306

This has been happening for decades, not just now. Different voices from Catalonia have been insulting the rest of Spain for a long time (“Andalusian people are lazy, we pay them the check and they use it for going to the bar”), same with the whining. Of course there are lots of insults coming from both sides, but please SHOW ME where, when the government has blamed Catalonia. They are attacking specific actors, not Catalonia or all Catalans, that’s just untrue. Whoever has told you that, he or she is lying.

There has been manipulative, partial news from both sides. Sure. But what I’m stating here is plainly true. If you don’t agree with any of the things that I have said, please demonstrate why I’m wrong.


#307

And please watch the interview to Puigdemont, so that you can get to know what he says himself. And please compare what Junqueras and Puigdemont tell their followers with what Europe is telling them. I have brought enough links for you to know what is happening, but I’m not seeing the clicks…


#308

Icon, in most civilized countries, there is a moral obligation, for the have-regions to contribute to the have-not regions. In Canada, prosperous provinces such as Alberta help to subsidize the maritime provinces. Separatism has only been championed by a very isolated fringe.

Interesting that Latin American leftists such as yourself sympathize with an economically powerful, Splittist, centre right government in Barcelona. Strange bedfellows indeed.

Personally, I think the Catalans are raising nationalism to unhealthy levels and are going against the spirit of the EU.

I think they are being very selfish economically, the leadership is not thinking about the rights of a large section of pro-Spain people in Catalonia, and Rajoy is perfectly justified in ensuring centralism prevails.


#309

“Facts”:

  1. Catalonia is not a “country”, nor ever was
  2. Spain is a democracy
  3. Like all democracies in the World, there are rules about to protect the country’s integrity
  4. The local government of Catalonia has broken not only these rules, but the ones they just came up with
  5. The secessionists have been lying openly about a wonderful future for Catalonia and what the international community and laws say
  6. Catalanists claim to be suffering a horrible repression. To call this “repression” is a bad joke. They just made up the numbers (you can even read how they defend those numbers…)
  7. Catalanists claim that they are pacific and now they see an unseen violence from “Spain”. This “violence” is a joke if compared with what would have happened to them in USA, UK or Germany under the same circumstances. Also they have had way more serious police violence… coming from their own police, commanded by their own politicians (the same ones that now complain about it) in the past years
  8. The pro independence movement has been lobbied other countries’ politicians with some marginal results, and has been working on a propaganda campaign that has had some effect in the international press and opinion. However, it’s still far from what they expected and need
  9. Spain has made for many decades huge investments in Catalonia, hence the prosperous region it is nowadays. Which country would be so mental to give up its most prosperous regions just for… no reason?
  10. The said movement has been claimed that there’s such a “right to vote”, to the point that many people actually believed that it’s something real. So bad that it doesn’t exist.
  11. The closest thing to the right mentioned in 10 is the right recognized during the regulation of the decolonization process. It’s been explained by Spanish and European international law experts that this applies only to colonial territories. this has been explained ad nauseam, but their propaganda has reached many retarded ears
  12. Regarding the secessionists as a pacifistic movement: that’s not true. They have been bullying “bad Catalans” forever. If you look for them, or if you check this thread again, you can even find how they beat up a couple of girls for supporting the Spanish football team during the World Cup (or some other event). This is not an isolated case. There are plenty more

I’m tired of this…


#310

Spot on. Sincerely, I haven’t replied to any of your previous messages for I considered that you were trolling. WTF that Cristo Rey and Legion bullshit man…

But what you say is so true, it’s one of the main roots of the problem we have in Spain: rich people wanting to keep the money for themselves. No country could survive applying that logic. Also, for some strange reason, the far left wing in Spain befriends so much with separatist movements, for the concept of “Spain” and nationalism is seen as a right wing thing, so they just hate whatever looks like Spanish nationalism, and support whoever enemy of this idea appears.


#311

Jesus is a one man argument for Catalonia independence.

'How to not make friends and influence people ’


#312

And that was my point.


#313

Thanks for the support of my post.

On the Legion, Carlism posts etc. – was not totally trolling. I like modern and democratic Spain, but I think Civil War scholarship is terribly one sided.

Was it brutal? Yes. Were their atrocities on both sides? Yes. But out of that bloody mess, was it better the Nationalists won rather than Republicans controlled by Moscow? Hell, yeah. It was only because Franco won, that the combination of moderates such as the Duke of Suarez and Opus Dei technocrats wanting to modernize Spain could get the upper hand in the 60 and 70s and lay down the path that made Spain what it is today.

Franco is treated as a pariah by much of the world decades after his death, but I generally think his personality represented a Galician pragmatist rather than an ideologue. When anti-Semites in the State Department in the US were ensuring no immigration of Jews in the 1940s (and many countries such as Canada were not letting in many), Spain was helpful in getting many over the French border. My point – the fascist label is incorrect. He danced with the devil to ensure victory in the Civil War, but he had no real ideology other than conservative, pro-state, monarchical leanings, and even showed humanitarian leanings.

And the Spain that is the legacy of liberal remnants of Francoism (e.g., Suarez) is being threatened by the Catalans with their selfish behaviour.


#314

So bad, but I don’t care. I could be demagogic and appeal to feelings and make use of images in a dubious way. In this way I could count with your and @Brianjones ‘s support. But you know what? I don’t care. I give evidences, I give reasons, I give facts and the way to check all these things on your own. You and @Brianjones don’t do it. Up to you. The support and the “friends” that Spain needs are already there. The whining from unimportant people… that only feeds the secessionists’ unreal feeling of having support. I’m much OK with that.


#315

The secessionists are 'your people ’ but you treat them as the enemy. You also insulted Catalonians in general about a billion times already.


#316

One post, one or more fallacies. Is it a rule you have or something?


#317

Insult is in the eye of the beholder?


#318

Attacking me I get, but Icon, she’s just trying to tell you a change of tone is needed to communicate your ideas.:roll_eyes:


#319

Well, for me it’s simple: the God Emperor has already said that he doesn’t support Catalonia’s independence, and who are we to question Him?


#320

Ask not what your country can do for you, but how you can cordon off part of it and call it a new country in the expectation that that is going to fix everything! Hurray!

The huge mistake of the Spanish government is responding to that with force. If they had encouraged and cheered it on they would have given it less wind. But anyway.