Meanwhile in Catalonia...

Most of the views he espouses on this site would be considered conservative in the U.S., but I can understand the confusion. It’s kind of complicated, and definitions are always changing.

Agreed. Especially in the USA, where people democrats and republicans have an interesting history of swapping roles. But I guess in Europe things aren’t much simpler.

BUT, “liberal” wouldn’t necessarily mean “progressist” …

Probably better for us to let Roland self-identify. Making assumptions about someone’s political stance would probably be considered a micro-aggression these days. :sunglasses:

Somebody called Rowland a liberal.

Just when you think things can’t get any more wacky …
. :slight_smile:

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What does he think about taxes and weapons…?

In Spanish, liberal means practically the opposite of English. We spent entire classes discussing translation and such.

I personally believe that the vote might be a manipulation, but the violent response of the Spanish establishment is more like a mixture of smoke screen distraction and vitamins for a weak and corrupt regime. I am more worried about what the Spanish authorities may be concealing under this patriotic act of enforcement.

There were a bevy of better ways to handle the situation. We can talk about whether Cataluña’s independence is a possibility from legal, moral and historic viewpoints till we are blue in the face. At this point, such discussion is moot. It is not the key question.

If the vote was illegal, why so much effort to stop it? As said, without constitutional mandate, such a vote is considered void. So why send troops? The response by Spanish media and people of huogai, that they deserve to be thrown against the wall and down staircases and have their fingers broken a la torture chanber, because they committed an illegal act, sounds more like the kind of discrimination that invites such divisiveness. That is why the Catalans desire to split has increased.

Spain is a young democracy at best, a very corrupt and bankrupt regime is in power. Of course a violent response in order to generate legitimacy seems like a complot, almost like a grey flag attack.

Civil liberties and freedom of expression have been restrained in all Spain the worse the corruption has ran, and that is also a logical effect. But the violence seen has no place in a developed country. It is more Venezuela than Spain. Moreover, the silence from Europe is in no way an endorsement. They do not want to carry more of the Spanish debt and other secondary effects from bad management all around.

Trust me on this one, NOTHING about what happened yesterday was exceptional. The police went to close down the schools, and the independentists tried to avoid it insulting them, pushing them out, throwing objects and… using children as human shields (please read the article I linked…).

And please do some research on Google: “Mossos violencia policial”. You will find out that the local police that has provoked now this chaos by not doing what they said they would do has an interesting record of police abuse and even DEADS in Catalonia.

But you know, Spain is soooo bad because they send the police (occupation forces lol) to abort seditious plans that local politicians were still working on despite all the warnings from judges and Government…

A sample of what some people understand by “democratic and pacific voting”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88FKQvZb1-w

LOL

In Spanish and in the Wikipedia too, apparently:

A supporter of liberalism, a political philosophy founded on ideas of liberty and equality
Classical liberalism, a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties
Conservative liberalism, a variant of liberalism, combining liberal values and policies with conservative stances, or, more simply, representing the right-wing of the liberal movement
Economic liberalism, the ideological belief in organizing the economy on individualist lines, such that the greatest possible number of economic decisions are made by private individuals and not by collective institutions
Social liberalism, the belief that liberalism should include social justice and that the legitimate role of the state includes addressing issues such as unemployment, health care, education, and the expansion of civil rights

The word in Americanese that you’re looking for is libertarian. :slight_smile:

Libertarianism is more or less defined as whatever bent the person who identifies as such claims it is.

So after the ETA thing quieted down, the Catalonia thing (re)took the spotlight? Isn’t there a number of these movements just simmering below the surface in Spain?

Interesting. I figured something was getting lost in translation.

I don’t presume to understand what’s actually going on in Catalonia, but the government response definitely didn’t make for good optics.

The government in Spain is up to its eyeballs in corruption. Needs a distraction.

Sending a practically foreign police force over the locals is one bad choice, next one is engaging civilians.

In a place with so many skeletons still in the closet, one should thread lightly. Of course, if a government lacks legitimacy, brutal force is the only way out .

I’m still curious, what are the historical grievances? I mean Ireland can point at figures like Cromwell and say you bloody English! :rant:

Do Catalonians have that kind of historical fuel (accurate or not), or do they just really resent Madrid politically, economically, and culturally?

Libertarians are wimps. I’m not a wimp.

I’m more or less what liberals used to be before the left co-opted the word and did their usual Orwellian inversion thingie on it.

Why, they even claim Fascism was a right wing movement. And let’s not get started on ‘progressive.’

Perhaps a comment on police brutality is in order. I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating: the police are the enforcement arm of the government. When the police are beating you up, it’s the government that’s beating you up.

Sometimes they have a good reason. Sometimes they don’t. Either way, they’re the government.

In this I agree with Rowland.
When the police are used as tools of oppression, you’ve got a big problem. Next you’ll have to bring in the army to protect the police from the people they are supposed to be protecting.
In Spains case they have militarised police similar to Italy which doesn’t help one bit.

@IbisWtf!
@Dr_Milker!
@Winston_Smith!
@jotham!

Rowland just called you all wimps! :astonished:

Are you gonna take that lying down? :rage:

(Sorry if this requires temping :oops:)

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