Meanwhile in Catalonia...

Good luck.

Whether the referendum is valid or not, Spain’s actions have guaranteed an eventual Catalan nation state in the future. The resentment is not going anywhere.

totally, beating people for expressing their opinion, how stoopid are they


Not necessarily, but I know what you mean. Most of the people in Spain, inside or outside Catalonia, consider it a bad movement.

Germany was never a country either. The US wasn’t a country . Canada wasn’t a country.
It doesn’t matter that it wasn’t a nation state it’s what the people want that matters . Representative democracy.

Why not let me vote?

Yeah. Spain wasn’t a country. Now it is, so Germany and USA are too. Ask them about secession.

Yeah, Spain is a representative democracy. People vote and parties do stuff. Like all the countries in the World, there are rules that everyone has to play by, and when somebody breaks the rules then legal actions are taken.

The secessionist parties in Catalonia already called for a popular consultation which results I have already posted here. According to what even they said, “with this results we can’t call for independence”. However, they issued their own “referendum law”, which I have already said that they didn’t even follow, and used reserved money and data for organizing this abortion of referendum, disobeying both government and judges.

The results of this referendum (you could vote as many times as you wanted, but let’s trust them!): less than 40% of the electors support independence.

Nah
 fuck it, let’s give up one of the richest regions of the country, because somebody made up something they call “right to decide” that doesn’t exist, and because some people were injured on Saturday. We can just forget about economic interests, manipulation, lack of democratic practices in Catalonia, indoctrination, sedition, and that they don’t even have half the Catalan population backing up their plans.

LOL

You don’t ‘own’ people people have their own human rights.

Someday you’ll figure this out.

Lots of anti-independence derp from one person, although he sort of has a point about local corruption. It’s just nowhere near the slam dunk he seems to think it is.

Power tends to corrupt. That’s why big government is inherently dangerous. Which is bigger, Spain or an independent Catalonia?

As for violence - only as much as necessary, nothing gratuitous - and I’ll be okay with it. I think of it as self defense writ large. When the racketeers from Madrid bust into your home and tax your belongings, the castle doctrine applies.

If local racketeers then attempt the same shakedown, you know what to do. And it’ll be a smaller gang than before.

The important thing is that the Madrid regime has lost control of the narrative. They have gone too far in the eyes of the free world. They can do no longer play the democracy card. It’s a public relations disaster, and they’re just digging themselves deeper.

People will look at this and ask: can independence possibly be worse?

If Madrid had been reasonable, they could have worked something out. I believe that almost happened in 2006. Some Madrid judges messed that up. Anyway, that ship has sailed.

People should look how the peaceful decades long home rule movement in Ireland morphed into a rebellion on the streets, destruction of the center of Dublin city and execution of respected local leaders, catalysing support for a full blown independence war , election for the first illegal parliament who were all wanted ‘criminals’ and then civil war to see how blocking self determination can ultimately end up.

Was any of it legal? Only the failed home rule movement
(of course women didn’t even have the vote then).

Was any of that predicted? Not really. There was no enthusiasm for independence amongst the general population until the destruction and botched response to the Easter rising. Then everything changed


Rules are subject to change in a democracy - or had damn well better be in this case. In fact, that’s kind of the point of democracy - which I strongly suspect you’ve missed.

Ultimately, it is the fault of the voters in Spain. Everyone in Spain gets the government the majority deserve. One corner of the country is fed up with that.

The biggest weakness of democracy is the tyranny of a stupid, childish majority. That’s why the US has constitutional protections for minorities (no, it wasn’t originally about race. It was about minority points of view and interests.) But that’s not the kind of rules in play here, is it?

No, the rules here are the other kind. The kind that need changing. Not the kind that deserve fetishizing.

When the IRA turned to car bombs and the like, they crossed a line. But some violence on their part I could justify.

It’s worth noting that Ireland has done a slightly iffy job at self government, but it’s probably not much worse off that it would have been otherwise. And they can’t blame the Brits anymore for their, er, troubles.

People should be free to make their own mistakes, and then take the blame.

There was different IRA movements , I wouldn’t conflate the modern one with the original one. Plus Irish were very good at killing each other (like Spain and the US) during the civil war. Definitely Irish governments and people have made lots of mistakes following independence but very very few would wish to go back to being controlled by a foreign parliament directly (EU membership notwithstanding).

At this stage we could say economically we are better off than most of the UK and certainly there is far less of the poisonous class divisions, backwards looking mentality and racial invective that exists there presently. We will take that success and run with it. I very much hope the UK also sorts itself out in the future to be more forward looking.

But I am a strong believer in letting people choose their own path. So for instance I would prefer Northern Ireland to be part of a united Ireland but I recognise it’s got to work for both communities there. Trying to force them be part of something they don’t want to be part of wouldn’t work. The power sharing current setup while benefiting British more is a lot better than any dogmatic one side takes all approach.

Using Jesus logic we should just try to takeover Northern Ireland by force by having a referendum and then calling them seditionists. And say in the unlikely event that it was taken over by force and local government abolished what then? What would we have gained given half the Norths population would hate the ‘occupying power’? Absolutely nothing I guarantee it.

As Rowland alluded to the tyranny of the majority is a very dangerous thing.
In Catalonia perhaps they could hold two passports, one Catalan and one Spanish if they wished?
These things don’t need to be black and white because the world isn’t black and white.

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irish starved to death under the brittish empire, as did bengal on an even greater scale. “probably not much worse off” than destitute and starving?

yea, it was way better when we were sub humans

and id add to that, that ireland is not self governed. look at a map.:see_no_evil::hear_no_evil::speak_no_evil:

From a Catalan living in the UK.

So now they’re calling to Brussels for help. This puts the EU bureaucrats in a neat double bind. If they support independence, then they undermine their own justification for existing.

I can see a way they can sort of have it both ways, if they’re clever. But are they clever?

Er
 and who said that? I think that it was pretty clear that we were talking about territory
?

Precisely, the biggest problems with corruption started when the central government gave more power to the local government in matter or urban planning for example. Oh, surprise, surprise. But speaking of numbers and sizes
 what’s the percentage of corruption? are we goign to compare apples with apples or with pears?

Anyway, please google cases of corruption in Spain: the biggest cases in terms of money have always been in the Autonomous Communities (local governments). This has easy explainations, but I will let you think about it.

Yes. No. No. Yes. However, the EU has declared numerous times that:

  1. The secessionists are wrong (are lying) when they tell the people in Catalonia that IF they declare independence they will still be European.
  2. The secessionists don’t have the support of the EU in this business
  3. This is an internal issue of Spain, and only Spain can decide what to do out of it

All of this BEFORE AND AFTER this poll.

OK troll. Enough.

This is a question of whether Spain will continue to exist in its current form, and whether it even ought to. There is no internal for it to be a matter of. It is a human matter.

And recent events demonstrate that the Madrid government is breathtakingly corrupt. I would even say morally bankrupt.

This was an internal matter for the region known as Catalonia. But if they or Madrid ask for assistance, then it’s legitimate to take sides.

And now that they’ve called to the EU, it is no longer an internal matter even so far as that goes.

Every abusive parent says it’s a family matter and everyone else should butt out. When the abused kids ask for help, only a heartless bastard would accept that logic. There are reasons to refuse getting involved but that’s not one of them.

In Catalonia you can be a good Catalan, or a bad Catalan; if you don’t want independence, then you are the latter:

A Catalan who doesn’t want independence shows a Spanish flag, and immediately the shouting start “son of a bitch!”, “go away!”, etc. That’s the democracy that the indedententism is preparing. They start when they are kids, and they keep doing the same when grown ups. Also they make up their own illegal laws (that people have to follow because it’s the new law), and for making everything work they have their political police.

you could say that about any country

Now why would that be?

Free speech cuts both ways, you know. You have the right to call me a son of a bitch, and I have the right to call you a son of a bitch right back. Grownups can handle it.

But when they bring the guys with truncheons into it, then we’ve escalated to sticks-and-stones. That, too, works both ways.

So, all things considered it’s better to let them call you names and shrug it off. But
 that’s another ship that has left the harbor.

By the way, you get no sympathy for your cause by complaining that you’ve been called names. Especially after your cause has taken to beating people up for trying to vote.

There’s something to be said for knowing when you’ve lost the debate. When you’re losing, yes, argue harder. When you’ve lost, that’s another thing entirely.