Open Discussion on Tibetan Buddhism

Arts & Sciences Religion & Spirituality
21

[quote=“On Aug 27, 2011, BigJohn”]
Yes, there is a tradition of Tantric Buddhism in Tibetan Buddhism, but it is not the common practice in Tibetan Buddhism, whatever references you can drag up.

So, you can complain against certain non-mainstream forms of Tibetan Buddhism, but this is not the same things as saying that all Tibetan Buddhism or most Tibetan Buddhism contains these practices.

Even within those parts of TB that are focused on the Tantric side, you have presented no evidence that the sexual element is usually or often coerced.

Basically, you need to fine tune your argument so that it is not against Tibetan Buddhism but against people who abuse it for sexual reasons.[/quote]

Tantric Buddhism is the highest and final stage of teachings in TB, the esoteric side of the tradition. It’'s not “the common practice” only because most students and practitioners in TB don’t reach that stage, yet many do. ALL the teachers/lamas do reach and complete that level of initiation and practice. The TB tantric literature contains frequent references to Hindu deities, therefore proving undeniably that this level of the TB tradition was adopted from Hinduism. Adding a thin veneer of Buddhist language and theory doesn’t change the fact that it’s Hinduism at its foundation.

Scholars (Ronald Davidson, among others) have long acknowledged that Buddhism incorporated Hindu tantra during the medieval period in India, in a desperate attempt to attract adherents in a time when Buddhism was losing followers to Hinduism, and was becoming a dying tradition. According to these historians of the tradition, this desperate bid only hastened Buddhism’s demise in India, as followers and the public were shocked by the new practices, knowing full well that the Buddha never taught sexual practice, a cult of teachers/lamas, magic, and so forth. They regarded this new development in Buddhism as a corruption of the original, and followers reportedly abandoned the tradition in droves. In this severely weakened state, it took little effort by later Muslim invaders to administer the coup-de-grace, and eliminate the tradition entirely, along with the practices they regarded as “vile” (the consumption of unclean substances in the Highest YogaTantra practices, and the sex rituals).

This is historical fact, not the inventions of a Taiwanese sect. TB evolved from a corrupt form of Buddhism that developed when Buddhism was on the wane in India. Of course the Buddha never taught tantra, that’s ridiculous. Anyone can read the sutras and see that. They can also see in scripture that the Buddha said that there are no secret teachings, he kept nothing secret from his followers.

As to coercion in the practice of sexual tantra, that’s a discussion for a whole other thread. But as an example, the esoteric side of the Kalachakra Tantra (as taught by the DL, and published by Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey, former head of the Tibetan Library in Dharamsala) teaches that in order to obtain the cooperation of the young “consorts”, the pre-teen and teenaged girls required by the ritual, candies should be offered. If that is not persuasive, then the girls should be plied with alcohol and raped. The Hevajra Tantra of the Sakya sect specifies that girls of 9 and 12 years old should be used for the ritual. What kind of consent can one get from a 9- or 12-year-old who has no understanding of sex?

The fact is that the tantric tradition is founded on pedophelia/hebephelia, and manipulation and deceit, sometimes violence, in the exploitation of young women and girls to fulfill the requirements of ritual. It should come as no surprise that such a tradition is scandal-ridden in modern times, especially when introduced to the West, where it’s not possible to persuade parents to give away their young daughters to the monastery by declaring them “Buddhamothers” and goddesses.

22

Christ, are we still talking about this? Wasn’t there already a 100-pp thread on this? Is there anything left to say?

As anyone who has ever darkened the door of a Tibetan dharma center could assure you, tantra in Tibetan Buddhism only rarely involves actual sex, and the situations which you describe would be generally received as scandals (of the same sort which have plagued Chinese Buddhism as well). More typically, tantric practice consists of chanting sadhanas and mantras (like Om Mani Padme Hum), along with visualizations. Perhaps the situation was different in India 1000 years ago, when Buddhism was struggling to secure royal patronage from various local rulers, but then, you wouldn’t assume Mother Teresa to have practiced human sacrifice just because there’s something like that in the Bible.

No serious university-based scholar supposes that Sakyamuni Buddha taught tantra. In fact, the Mahayana sutras are on pretty shaky ground as well. Reconstructing what the Buddha did teach (assuming he really existed) is a difficult undertaking, which I understand is still in its infancy. On the other hand, a tradition or teaching might still have value even if not taught by the historical Buddha.

But perhaps I’m just being naive. For all I know, rape and debauchery could be going on right now in Taiwan’s Tibetan dharma centers. In that case, present your evidence (if you have any)–first to the police, and then to the general public. No fair blaming local lamas for something somebody else did in some other country or historical era.

23

[quote=“Zla’od”]Christ, are we still talking about this? Wasn’t there already a 100-pp thread on this? Is there anything left to say?

As anyone who has ever darkened the door of a Tibetan dharma center could assure you, tantra in Tibetan Buddhism only rarely involves actual sex, and the situations which you describe would be generally received as scandals (of the same sort which have plagued Chinese Buddhism as well). More typically, tantric practice consists of chanting sadhanas and mantras (like Om Mani Padme Hum), along with visualizations. Perhaps the situation was different in India 1000 years ago, when Buddhism was struggling to secure royal patronage from various local rulers, but then, you wouldn’t assume Mother Teresa to have practiced human sacrifice just because there’s something like that in the Bible.

No serious university-based scholar supposes that Sakyamuni Buddha taught tantra. In fact, the Mahayana sutras are on pretty shaky ground as well. Reconstructing what the Buddha did teach (assuming he really existed) is a difficult undertaking, which I understand is still in its infancy. On the other hand, a tradition or teaching might still have value even if not taught by the historical Buddha.

But perhaps I’m just being naive. For all I know, rape and debauchery could be going on right now in Taiwan’s Tibetan dharma centers. In that case, present your evidence (if you have any)–first to the police, and then to the general public. No fair blaming local lamas for something somebody else did in some other country or historical era.[/quote] The point of presenting the history of TB’s tantric side was to establish that sexual tantra is woven into the fabric of the religion. Therefore, the tradition is more prone to corruption than other Buddhist traditions. The fact is that generally, men who attend Tibetan dharma centers will tend to have a very different experience and perspective over the activity there, than women attendees. Of course, it all depends on the teacher. Some do observe their vows. But too many try to convince female students that having sex with the teacher will help advance their practice. This is typically presented after ingraining in all the students that they are to trust the teacher completely, as a manifestation of the Buddha himself, and a representative of “the Holy Dharma”. After being brainwashed in this way, students who are emotionally needy or otherwise psychologically vulnerable give in to demands for sex. This is done after the teaching session is over, out of earshot of other students, so that in most cases, no one knows that the teacher has lined up several students to be his “consorts”. The teachers can be very sneaky about this.

Sanghas in the US, Australia, and Europe have broken up when scandals of this nature have been discovered. The young Kalu Rinpoche fired all the teachers in one of his centers in France, when he found out what was going on, and students filed criminal charges against some of the monks. The head lama had to do jail time. But it’s only in the 21st Century, for the most part, that students have been emboldened to report problems to the police. Women often are too ashamed or traumatized to be able to take the step of filing criminal charges or launching a lawsuit.

I think Taiwan has the right idea in questioning whether TB is appropriate for Formosan society. It carries a higher risk of scandal than other Buddhist traditions, due to the strong Hindu tantric element that amalgamated with it.

And fwiw, I’ve “darkened the door” of several TB centers (in the US), and with the exception of one, whose insurance policy required measures to be taken to avoid scandal, the teachers in every one were always on the prowl for women to have their jollies with. One lama (a Gelug, the only officially celibate sect) was shockingly open about it, announcing to the group at the beginning of each session how much he liked one of the students. (She avoided him entirely after that began, and complained to the sangha organizer.) This type of misconduct is much more common than you think. The fact is that it’s not unusual for women attending TB sessions to be faced with sexual harassment. Men do not. Men, therefore, are in a privileged position in TB centers, in that they can assume they can attend teachings unmolested. Too many women who assume the same are proven wrong.

24

Sexual tantra is not “woven into the fabric of the religion,” and in fact seems to be quite rare. Sexual scandals occur with some regularity, just as they do in other religions. A typical scenario is that a theoretically celibate monk comes on to, or (if she agrees) sleeps with, a laywoman. No tantra or religion involved. My wife used to work for the part of Taiwan’s government responsible for giving visas to Tibetans, and was aware of a number of monks who gave up robes to marry a Taiwanese laywoman. But none of this is either tantra, or rape.

You suggest that Tibetan lamas in Taiwan are habitually misusing their religious authority to pressure naive women into having sex with them, but your examples are all well-known scandals from other countries. My experience of Gelugpa groups is that there could be very little brainwashing going on along these lines–that is simply not what they teach–so sex scandals tend to be of the ordinary, secular nature that I described. (Geshe Michael Roach practiced sexual tantra, with a willing partner, and was shunned for it.) Nyingma groups are more decentralized, with more of a tradition of married lamas, and less inclination to place limits on guru-devotion, so perhaps the situation is different in those circles, but each lama and group needs to be evaluated separately. I have never heard anything like this suggested about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, for example (who has a Western girlfriend).

You know what all this reminds me of? 19th-century anti-Masonry. The Freemasons are a worldwide fraternal order (a secret society, if you will), whose vows famously prescribe slitting the throat of any initiate who reveals their secret rituals (cf. TB texts which sometime contain violent or sexual imagery). In the 19th century an anti-Masonic movement arose–inspired partly by real abuses (there actually was a throat-slitting), but kept going by rumor, hysteria, and partisan politics. To this day it is common to encounter claims that the Masons worship the devil, help each other commit crimes, secretly rule the world, etc. In reality they are a bunch of old men who raise money for charity.

19th-century anti-Catholicism worked similarly. The Catholics are un-democratic, taking orders from the pope. Horrible abuses (including sexual abuses) go on in Catholic monasteries and nunneries, so they should be shut down, and Catholics barred from immigrating to the country. While there is some truth to these accusations, today we understand that this 19th-century rhetoric was unbalanced and extreme (but then say the same sort of thing about Muslims), and that the religion is not as awful as advertised. Same with your presentation of Tibetan Buddhism.

25

I’m not sure if each sect does have to be evaluated separately. All but the Gelug are non-celibate, unless you follow the DL’s definition of “celibate”, which is that as long as the semen is retained, the monk remains “celibate”. :roflmao:
Dzongsar Khentse Rinpoche is of the Drukpa Kagyu school, which is non-celibate; I’m not sure what your point there was. But it was Dzongsar Khentse who had on his website some years back a response to the whole sexual-scandal issue, and in it he stated that a friend of his, teaching at a center in the West, had several consorts (at the same time), and “no complaints”. His view seemed to be, “Much ado about nothing”, or “what’s the fuss all about”? Completely missing the point that clergy aren’t supposed to use their “flock” for their own sexual gratification.

Sexual tantra is woven into the fabric of the religion as far as many monks’ practice is concerned. Some use their spouse for their practice (the Sakyas also have married “monks”). Others take consorts from the Tibetan community. These were, then, considered “spiritual marriages”. :astonished: Nowadays, it’s not unusual for them to take “consorts” from among their sangha-members. Though you’re right; according to some reports the sex that takes place is of the mundane variety, not the tantric sort.

We could argue endlessly about whether TB’s tantric aspect causes more than a garden-variety level of scandal. But the fact is that some teachers (too many) use this as an excuse, a ploy, to convince followers that they need to partake with the teacher in order to “further their practice”. And I think that many teachers aren’t able to handle the focus on sex at the tantric level, whether it’s in meditation or in practice. Learning a lot of Buddhist theory and philosophy, without a sufficient grounding in morality, will lead to problems, and doubly or triply so when the training is in tantrism.

26

All four Tibetan “sects” have celibate monks (as commonly understood–not just semen retention), as well as other religious professionals who are not expected to be celibate (but who may wear robes of some sort). In the case of Kalu Rinpoche, a theoretically celibate monk seems to have been had a tantric sexual relationship, apparently on the understanding that under some circumstances (i.e., high level practice), this would not violate his monastic vows. This is a controversial point, and it is revealing that he had to keep the relationship secret. As for the Gelugpa, my understanding is that this sort of thing would not be tolerated. The only example I can think of is Michael Roach, and indeed, his behavior was not tolerated by other Gelugpas.

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is a Sakya tulku with primarily Nyingma training and personal leanings, and a general Rismed orientation. He is not a monk. I don’t know who his friend was–conceivably he was not a monk either, and I do not see why I am supposed to be troubled by his sexual relationships.

In my experience, Tibetan Buddhist teachers of all sects emphasize morality (i.e., avoiding specific negative actions, performing positive ones, and taking vows to that effect). Westerners often find the subject less interesting than say, tantra, but that is hardly the fault of the lamas.

So “too many teachers” use tantra to seduce their female students. Can you name any such cases in Taiwan?

27

No response to this? I might have assumed there would be some considerable number.

28

[quote=“LhasaLhamo”]Scholars (Ronald Davidson, among others) have long acknowledged that Buddhism incorporated Hindu tantra during the medieval period in India, in a desperate attempt to attract adherents in a time when Buddhism was losing followers to Hinduism, and was becoming a dying tradition. According to these historians of the tradition, this desperate bid only hastened Buddhism’s demise in India, as followers and the public were shocked by the new practices, knowing full well that the Buddha never taught sexual practice, a cult of teachers/lamas, magic, and so forth. They regarded this new development in Buddhism as a corruption of the original, and followers reportedly abandoned the tradition in droves. In this severely weakened state, it took little effort by later Muslim invaders to administer the coup-de-grace, and eliminate the tradition entirely, along with the practices they regarded as “vile” (the consumption of unclean substances in the Highest YogaTantra practices, and the sex rituals).

This is historical fact, not the inventions of a Taiwanese sect. TB evolved from a corrupt form of Buddhism that developed when Buddhism was on the wane in India. Of course the Buddha never taught tantra, that’s ridiculous. Anyone can read the sutras and see that. They can also see in scripture that the Buddha said that there are no secret teachings, he kept nothing secret from his followers.[/quote]

This is just propaganda, read actual scholarship on the topic (Hopkins, Klein, Dreyfus, Conze, Wallace, etcetc)

The idea that the tantric texts are “new”/invented is exactly the argument hinayanist give against mahayanists. The same counterarguments apply.

You also have zero knowledge of history. Tantra was studied at Nalanda at least as early as when Nagarjuna and Aryadeva were there. Everything you’ve said is pure fiction, which no actual scholar agrees with. Perhaps you should now try to quote some works from the 1800s britain as your taiwanese buddhist cult members did when trying to disparage.

Hate to break it to you but such incidents are very rare in the world in general

29

[quote=“triceratopses”]

Hate to break it to you but such incidents are very rare in the world in general[/quote]

Hey, you’ll have to cut me some slack–I read most of this stuff, and–if I took it for granted–no one could deny that I might have assumed that. Was there, just to pick a crazy number out of a hat, one even?

30

Of course, wasn’t my intent to come off as pushy just snarky since you’re a decent example of what happens–these people talk and clueless people actually listen and take them seriously. It’s kind of like watching someone listen to fox news and then start repeating what they heard… can’t help but facepalming and getting douche chills, it’s that bad.

No there has not yet been a taiwan sex scandal. As i said they are rare in the TB world in general.

In actuality the people disparaging TB are against the practices in principle, meaning they want to argue that there exists no valid basis and function to them. All this other stuff about throwing this person’s name or that person’s name as though it is supposed to prove something is just politics and cheap propaganda.

31

[quote=“triceratopses”]

Of course, wasn’t my intent to come off as pushy just snarky since you’re a decent example of what happens–these people talk and clueless people actually listen and take them seriously. It’s kind of like watching someone listen to fox news and then start repeating what they heard… can’t help but facepalming and getting douche chills, it’s that bad.[/quote]

I don’t take anything that seriously :slight_smile: I just thought it was an interesting question, considering, and was wondering if there was going to be some kind of response.

32

Sakyas do not have “married monks”, this is simply a lie. Nor do any of the other tibetan tradition. In your cluelessness you are getting confused by their clothing. Although they may wear clothing similar to ordained people people such as sakya trizin and all the rest have marriages wives and kids and do not define or assert themselves as ordained persons.

Again, you have little clue what you are talking about. This definition is straight from the vinaya, which states that a monk breaks the celibacy vow when the genitals are joined and semen is released. The vow is not broken under certain circumstances, such as if one is raped, or if one has sex with a person from a higher realm for example a desire realm demi-god, plus a few other caveats.

Training in morality is extremely simple it is only a matter of samadhi.

The real problem is being too suppressed by samadhi and having no desire or enjoyment for the desire realm. It is extremely easy to enter the dhyanas and waste your life away there in subtle states of mind.

It is much harder to remain in the desire realm and make use of desire realm samadhi in a beneficial way.

33

[quote=“Zla’od”]…
So “too many teachers” use tantra to seduce their female students. Can you name any such cases in Taiwan?[/quote]
Don’t play naive; you can read Chinese, you should have read and heard some sexual tantra news via the media in Taiwan.
Plenty of them.

[quote=“triceratopses”]…
[color=#0000FF]No there has not yet been a taiwan sex scandal. As I said they are rare in the TB world in general.[/color]
[/quote]
:no-no:
This one is even worse!! :roflmao:

34

[quote=“triceratopses”]…

[/quote]

Compliment to your knowledge of Lamaism’s practice!! :thumbsup:

You are the one who have little clue what you are talking about!
[color=#0000FF]Having sex is having sex, whatever way you describe it! [/color] :roflmao: :roflmao:
Sexual act has nothing to do with Buddhist liberation or attaining awakening!

35

[quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“Zla’od”]…
So “too many teachers” use tantra to seduce their female students. Can you name any such cases in Taiwan?[/quote]
Don’t play naive; you can read Chinese, you should have read and heard some sexual tantra news via the media in Taiwan.
Plenty of them.
[/quote]

I can, but I haven’t heard of anything in particular with regards to Tibetan Buddhism. Hmmm, I guess I’ll have to go looking.

36

You need to study vinaya, and you need to start providing actual replies and evidence instead of stupid remarks.

37

[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“Zla’od”]…
So “too many teachers” use tantra to seduce their female students. Can you name any such cases in Taiwan?[/quote]
Don’t play naive; you can read Chinese, you should have read and heard some sexual tantra news via the media in Taiwan.
Plenty of them.
[/quote]

I can, but I haven’t heard of anything in particular with regards to Tibetan Buddhism. Hmmm, I guess I’ll have to go looking.[/quote]

Tempo Gain
It’s great! There are English names throughout the reports!!
If you’re able to read and understand Chinese, I have plenty of info for your reference.
[color=#0000FF]Report summaries of TV News, newspapers and interviews[/color] about Tantric Lamas’ Sexual Scandals

youtube.com/watch?v=JsK1wY6AmqA 喇嘛性侵
Tantric Lamaism that has done damages to Taiwanese females and females around the world

Taiwan region 06:23 ~ 15:33
Hong Kong, Malasia, Australia, etc. 16:45 onwards
Taiwan region 20:22 onwards

In this video, you can see the [color=#0000FF]sexual statues and the lamas clad in maroon robes[/color]
Aside from Taiwan, there are also info from around the round in different languages. (Part 1)

Doubtlessly, triceratopses would just conveniently brush aside everything as always.
I wonder what Tricer would say this time… :ponder:

38

You need to study vinaya, and you need to start providing actual replies and evidence instead of stupid remarks.[/quote]
Please have a good look at the Youtube before you make any foolish reply.
Or more pieces of concrete evidences will simply keep exposing your irresponsible lies!

39

[quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“Zla’od”]…
So “too many teachers” use tantra to seduce their female students. Can you name any such cases in Taiwan?[/quote]
Don’t play naive; you can read Chinese, you should have read and heard some sexual tantra news via the media in Taiwan.
Plenty of them.
[/quote]
I can, but I haven’t heard of anything in particular with regards to Tibetan Buddhism. Hmmm, I guess I’ll have to go looking.[/quote]

Tempo Gain
It’s great! There are English names throughout the reports!!
If you’re able to read and understand Chinese, I have plenty of info for your reference.[/quote]
So, when asked to name any cases, you apparently can’t. You can link to an inane propaganda video with zero trustworthiness, but you can’t name any of these many cases. OK, got it.

:ponder: right back at you.

40

You need to study vinaya, and you need to start providing actual replies and evidence instead of stupid remarks.[/quote]
Please have a good look at the Youtube before you make any foolish reply.
Or more pieces of concrete evidences will simply keep exposing your irresponsible lies![/quote]

Those are all chinese buddhists has nothing to do with tibetan buddhism, except for Choedak Rinpoche, who firstly is in australia not taiwan, and is not a monk meaning he can have sex with whoever he likes.

Nevertheless Choedak Rinpoche was heavily admonished by the australian tibetan buddhist community since he is a minor community leader of sorts.

As usual, your logic is senseless and foolish. If tibetan buddhism was all about having sex, as you claim, there would be 100,000s or 1,000,000s of cases, in taiwan and every other country. There are not, there are just very isolated incidents.

Again, what you are calling “evidence” other people call “foolish nonsense”.