Otto Warmbier

Exactly. It is not the trimmings, it is in the workings.

Taiwan is developed as it is a functional society, in which you can still work and do things and live and even thrive. It may not be pretty, but it does the job.

Can you get around without fear of death? -mostly, except croosiing a road, especially with no sidewalks. People hold jobs that pay regularly, there is food in the supermarkets, the transit flows and works regularly as per expectations, the society as a whole has goals and objectives and humanistic values. That sort of thing.

Donā€™t go to those cheapo hotpots and then say you got sick. I eat hotpot like once a month at those 1000 NT + hotpot places and have never gotten sickā€¦

Also, I think like 2/3 of the island is mountainous regions, so for a relatively small island with only a population of like 24million people, thereā€™s going to be a lot of places that just donā€™t have much going on. And a lot of places that are just hard to get to or impossible to build things around. I think half of the people live near and in Taipei and Kaohsiung, so naturally these are going to be the most modern 1st world looking places.

You sir, take that back. Right meow.

They do eat a lot of beef there, so I can see why would get upset or not like it there.

It is ugly, itā€™s getting better looking I would say. But for a country that isnā€™t even recognized as a country by most of the world, not part of the UN, not part of the WHO, gets hit by about 4 typhoons a year, with a average of over 2,000 earth quakes a year, a newly democratic government about 20 years old thats actually functioning (how many countries have actually smoothly transitioned into a democratic country in such a short time successfully), covered with mountains in about 2/3 of the land, full of rivers, constantly threaten by the PRCā€¦I think Taiwan is a miracle with what it is now. Of course when you develop so fast under these circumstances, not everything is going to look pretty in favor of function and how fast itā€™s able to be built.

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Beef: good; boiled: bad. Itā€™s not rocket science. I have no problem with cannibalism because, well, my kind just taste so good.

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True. If Italy is considered developed, then Taiwan is as well. The north is like France (just more polluted, when I was in Milan I was like am I back in Taiwan?), but the south is like really really really really bad. The internet in Italy is absolutely pathetic, and for such a HOT country, I donā€™t understand how people there could survive with so few AC in summer, itā€™s just hard to believe. I canā€™t come up with lots of things that are more developed in Italy than in Taiwan, their wages are abhorrent as well and the unemployment rate is so off the roof that itā€™s hitting outer space. Maybe more stray dogs here lmao.

Itā€™s beautiful though. Hands down the best country for visiting imo.

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I was told hands down by many Italians that they prefer taiwan much better besides the food. They feel safe, have better job opportunities and options in starting their own businesses. In fact most Europeans here same the same sentiments in Taiwanā€™s safety. Especially women, thatā€™s one complement of taiwan I always hear from European women here. They actually fee safe walking around alone everywhere.

I personally wouldnā€™t describe Taiwan as being ā€œuglyā€ because of its economy, politics and weather patterns, not like we choose to have typhoons and earthquakes. Maybeā€¦ā€œmessyā€?

It just sounded like you were describing itā€™s landscape as ugly and itā€™s probably the first time Iā€™ve heard someone consider the landscape and nature of Taiwan as a negative. Nonetheless, everyone has the right to their own opinion.

I seriously question the institution that would give such a person a doctorate with that kind of mind set.

No not the landscape, Iā€™m saying the infrastructure is ugly. Things were built fast, and in favor of withstanding natural elements along with a huge boom in the economy. So not everything was built to look nice. And Iā€™m agreeing with you thatā€™s itā€™s not Taiwanā€™s fault that it gets hit by typhoon after typhoon. Iā€™m saying itā€™s actually amazing things are actually the way they are.

Ugly is a harsh word. But I would not say the country is beautiful outside of nature.

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i donā€™t buy the weather as an excuse for things to be so ugly. japan is pretty close to taiwan and its gotta be the most pristine looking place i have ever seen. they have aesthetics. and they have a culture of cleaning everything up and maintaining things. they have neither of those things here and that is why everything looks like crap. i do appreciate the laid back vibe though.

some things are just problems though. some are down to not being developed - driving for example. others are down to corruption.

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But Japan laid most of the foundation for Taiwanā€™s modernization? You still see buildings, bridges built by them. Hell the presidential building is built by them as the symbol of Nippon. And Japan had much more time to develop, they are the first Asian country to modernize in the 20th century. Yes I agree with some of what you said, but like they said. Rome wasnā€™t built in a day.

I donā€™t. Thousands of people use this tour company. Apparently they give constant warnings about behavior. Young men in a foreign land will always want a beer, especially in such an alcohol driven culture like Korea. No other tourist has got in trouble like this.

What can a tour operator do when consenting adults break a countries law?

The parents are angry, and rightly so, but I donā€™t think itā€™s right to blame Ottoā€™s death on the tour operator

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Not the MRT! :rant: I can think of a few ā€œworld citiesā€ in first world countries that look backward in comparison to Taipeiā€¦

The MRT is actually well done and expended nicely. Youā€™re right, itā€™s nicer and cleaner than other places like london and NY.

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I have to agree with that. The MRT in Taipei is very well done, clean, and efficient. My only compliant is that it lacks coverage to some areas, but hopefully it will be expanded.

well yea those times were orderly, ive seen some video. its quite a contrast to now. surely it only illustrates my point more that its a cultural thing?

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Iā€™m not disagreeing with you. Iā€™m just saying a lot of factors contributed to how taiwan looks. Culture is certainly one. But I think the fact that taiwan gets hits my so many typhoons at their peak in strength, huge amount of rain fall every year, and constant earthquakes, buildings had to withstand these elements vs look good. Look at how bad earthquakes affect Italy. Those buildings compound the disaster but they are that frequent. Also the boom of development leads to less time in making things look pretty.

and iā€™m saying the biggest factor is chinese culture. the building designs here are not even bad(although some are ugly as sin but on the whole i donā€™t mind the standard taiwanese apartment block) imo, theres some tidier places in taipei (minsheng community, daan) that look really nice. its more about the unregulated sheet metal additions, window cages, rubbish signs, horrific traffic and scooters parked as far as the eye can see. btw japan has a lot of earthquakes. and whats the big deal about typhoons? buildings canā€™t be cleaned?

When the KMT retreated here after the war, they treated Taiwan as a temporary base, and as such, quick construction, low cost, and utility were priorities over aesthetics. Hence the concrete-and-bathroom-tile aesthetic of the KMT era.

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