Please refrain from name calling

[Savvon]

[quote=“ThreadKiller”]Savvon, I have three major thoughts concerning [url=Heads up: Yelling at Taiwanese assistants OP[/url].

[quote=“Muzha Man”]
I wouldn’t do anything unless it reached the level of assault in some way. My wife is perfectly capable of handling such a situation herself.[/quote]
:bravo:

1. I enjoyed the above as, Savvon, I found your original post to be smacking of chauvinism:

[quote]Teachers will also tell their husbands/boyfriends. You should have more foresight before yelling at one of our wives, the mother of our child(ren) and daughters of Taiwan.

Ask yourself, what would you do if some “foreigner” yelled at your wife/girlfriend?[/quote]
Being cordial in the workplace has nothing to do with whether one is male or female, or whether another is someone’s wife or daughter. And however unnecessary verbal abuse is, I can’t see how the situation would be improved by having a husband, father or boyfriend threaten any foreigner who had complained too vociferously about not being respected. Besides which, some foreign teachers are female and some assistants are male.

I feel that anyone yelling at a woman should be asking themselves why they need to yell at another human being. Why should the person undergoing the treatment be defined in terms of her roles as a male’s partner, daughter, or mother?

2. Putting aside my dismay at the inherent sexism of the post though, let me state that of course foreigners working in Taiwan should show respect to their Taiwanese colleagues and vice versa. While I have seldom seen anger expressed openly between foreign and Taiwanese co-workers, I’ve been bemused, amused, and disturbed by anger expressed in open by both hothead teachers and arrogant Taiwanese management - ending badly in most cases, regardless of which party was ranting. Nevertheless, it is difficult to know what actually happened in the situation you originally used as an example.

We simply do not know. The angry teacher may not have been disrespected at all, with the assistant offering all assistance without hesitation. Alternatively, he may have been provoked to the point at which most rational people would have snapped.

After all, I am reading your version of a story that was itself related to you by your wife who, as you state:

… didn’t pay attention to details because at Future Heir, they keep their teachers rather busy both foreigner and otherwise.

3. It would be nice to live in a world in which everyone respected everyone else and in which everyone deserved respect. And I do do what I can to treat all in my workplace with respect. But it’s easier for me in my present job at the university where I have amazing colleagues. Taiwanese/foreigner, native speaker/Taiwanese colleague relationships are fraught with difficulties (especially in the usual buxiban set-up). Both the foreigners and the Taiwanese teachers/assistants often leave the classroom and bitch about the other side. You and I know that both the teacher and the assistant are real human beings with both good and bad characteristics, but a teacher’s friends have probably told him (if we assume maleness here) to expect a lack of respect instead of help from any assistant, while certain assistants have no doubt entered classrooms expecting nothing but laziness and arrogance from native speaking teachers.

So while I imagine that the teacher in the situation you described was probably being an asshole (based on my own biases against foreign teachers) let me clarify my thoughts by reiterating that …

1. There’s no reason to be silly and sexist about it.
2. There’s reason to be cautious before judging situations when we have few details.
3. There’s a need for more respect from both sides of the teaching divide.
   My [/quote]

Threadkiller,

I apologized for the stereotypical topic in the beginning of my first post. It is not chauvinism or sexism. When I used an example of a Taiwanese female assistant teacher, it’s statistically accurate. Also, I only referred to one foreigner being male and that is the one in my example. I have seen a foreigner female teacher lose it too, but I didn’t think bringing it up would be relevant.

I personally have never met a male Taiwanese assistant teacher and I have never met a foreigner assistant teacher. Currently at Future Heir school there are many assistant teachers, every single one being Taiwanese and female. I am sure you have met a male assistant teacher in your journeys in Taiwan, but that does not change the fact that female Taiwanese mostly fill the role of assistant teacher.

This does not make me a chauvinist nor does it make me sexist simply because I acknowledge and recognize a pattern. I would like to ask you to please refrain from name calling, painting me with a wide brush or trying to “kill my thread” with your approach to this topic. It is not necessary for this discussion.

I know Taiwanese do bad things just like us, but that does not give us a free pass to lower ourselves and treat others like they are sub-human. The topic is about us, the foreigners in Taiwan. It is about us losing it. If you want to talk about Taiwanese losing it, start another thread and I will post my experiences in it.

Admins,
I notice you lock threads when things get “heated”. Please understand I am not angry or heated. I just wanted to bring up this topic because it seems to be common.

[tempogain]

[quote=“Savvon”]
I would like to ask you to please refrain from name calling, painting me with a wide brush or trying to “kill my thread” with your approach to this topic. It is not necessary for this discussion.[/quote]

I didn’t see any of those things happening in TK’s post.

[quote]
I know Taiwanese do bad things just like us, but that does not give us a free pass to lower ourselves and treat others like they are sub-human. The topic is about us, the foreigners in Taiwan. It is about us losing it. If you want to talk about Taiwanese losing it, start another thread and I will post my experiences in it.[/quote]

It seems to me that those are two sides of the same coin. Discussion of your topic, while focused on the main side, will naturally touch on both sides at times.

[quote]
Admins,
I notice you lock threads when things get “heated”. Please understand I am not angry or heated. I just wanted to bring up this topic because it seems to be common.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say that, I think “uncivil” would be a better word choice than “heated” there, but very few threads will be permanently locked even as a result of that. Disagreement is part of discussion.

[Savvon]

@Tempo Gain

Disagreement is part of discussion.

Yes, disagreement is part of discussion. However, what is he disagreeing with? Not the topic, but my chauvinistic, sexist attitude. When someone brings up that you are “ist” or “ism”, it also has underlining tones that you are ignorant and not as intelligent as the person calling you the name(s).

The only difference in name calling is whether you are directly or indirectly calling someone names.

“You are sexist!”

“You are being sexist!”

We can debate the above all you want, but the feeling is the same when it is directed at you and this is why I asked him to refrain painting me with a wide brush.

[jimipresley]

@Savvon

[quote=“Tempo Gain”] Disagreement is part of discussion.

Yes, disagreement is part of discussion. However, what is he disagreeing with? Not the topic, but my chauvinistic, sexist attitude. When someone brings up that you are “ist” or “ism”, it also has underlining tones that you are ignorant and not as intelligent as the person calling you the name(s).

The only difference in name calling is whether you are directly or indirectly calling someone names.

“You are sexist!”

“You are being sexist!”

We can debate the above all you want, but the feeling is the same when it is directed at you and this is why I asked him to refrain painting me with a wide brush.[/quote]
I agree! You are certainly not being sexist. Misogynist and racist, perchance?

No, really. I’m joking.

[tempogain]

[quote=“Savvon”]

Yes, disagreement is part of discussion. However, what is he disagreeing with? Not the topic, but my chauvinistic, sexist attitude. When someone brings up that you are “ist” or “ism”, it also has underlining tones that you are ignorant and not as intelligent as the person calling you the name(s).[/quote]

I saw it as a fair criticism, the kind of which one should expect to encounter when posting one’s thoughts in a public forum.

We can debate the above all you want,

Not very much in fact.

[Savvon]

[quote=“jimipresley”]Misogynist and racist, perchance?

No, really. I’m joking.[/quote]

HAHA!

See? Humor! Not that difficult.

@Tempo Gain

I saw it as a fair criticism, the kind of which one should expect to encounter when posting one’s thoughts in a public forum.

Then we see different things. As far as being a public forum, I had to be personally accepted by an admin before I joined. This implies it is a semi-private forum at the least. Public forums have open registrations. When an admin sets up their forum this way, it generally means they wish to control the level of “criticism” that is allowed on the forums to deter bad feelings and negativity in general and/or has had problems in the past.

@ThreadKiller

So while I imagine that the teacher in the situation you described was probably being an asshole (based on my own biases against foreign teachers)

The way I see it, this person has a biased opinion about me simply for the fact that I am a foreign teacher and is the root of their attitude towards me.

However, the fact remains whether you see it or not. His insults towards me were not appreciated and I asked him nicly to stop.

I am entitled to ask no?

[tempogain]

Anyone can join here, but the point is that any member here can respond to posts that you make. Thus it is a public forum.

I’m saying he wasn’t insulting you and by asking him to stop you are inhibiting discussion here. I have to run (to my teaching job ) now, I 'd suggest reading these to get what I’m saying here:

forumosa.org/forum-rules/

What is a Personal Attack?

What is a Personal Attack? Our goal is to provide a forum where foreigners can discuss life in Taiwan, current events and other topics of interest in an atmosphere of mutual respect. While we know that we can never be 100% successful, we are committed to doing whatever we can, within reason, to make this goal a reality. Forumosa.com has rules against posting personal attacks. We have learned that there exists a broad range of opinion about what constitutes a personal attack. It is our op…

I am locking this for the time being until I can split this part of the discussion off.

[ThreadKiller]

Hi Savvon

[quote=“Savvon”]I would like to ask you to please refrain from name calling, painting me with a wide brush or trying to “kill my thread” with your approach to this topic.[/quote]I’m disturbed that you feel my response was personally attacking you.

That was certainly not my intention. It’s common on Forumosa or certain other forums to point out parts of an argument one disagrees with, without resorting to name-calling.

I think that I’m pretty pedantic about following the Forumosa rules – and I do this as I see it as a valuable forum for discussion.
The rules state:

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, “your facts are wrong,” but it is not appropriate to say “you are a liar.”

So, I think it’s quite acceptable for me to suggest that elements in a post are sexist, without having to worry about whether someone will take it as a personal affront.

You refer to your title as stereotypical – but that’s nothing to apologize for. It’s a clear title referring to a common situation. A good title for a thread. With regards to sexism, let me clarify why I stand by my position that the following could be accused of it (albeit unintentional):

[quote=“Savvon”]Teachers will also tell their husbands/boyfriends. You should have more foresight before yelling at one of our wives, the mother of our child(ren) and daughters of Taiwan.

Ask yourself, what would you do if some “foreigner” yelled at your wife/girlfriend?[/quote] Women do not need men to help them deal with falling outs in the workplace. And furthermore, to suggest that one should think about a woman’s spouse or father when dealing with her, relegates her to a position of second class citizen. I’m going to speak to any colleague with respect because he or she deserves it as a human being, without regard for their connections to relatives or partners.

It’s a great topic for a thread and that’s why I responded. Foreign teachers do need to learn more respect for their Taiwanese colleagues. I was in no way trying to kill your thread. I was pointing out that the situation might be more complicated. I was hoping to foster a little more discussion. One is entitled to one’s opinions and so you can expect some people in the particular thread to simply post about incidents in which foreign teachers were rude to assistants. You will also find people discussing the issues, as well as each other’s posts.

I am in no way biased against you. I’m into discussion for the sake of discussion and will usually engage posters’ comments, not the posters. When most of my friends are teachers and I am myself one, it would be silly for me to write of somebody’s message because they were a teacher. Again, I look at the what the message itself says.

On Forumosa, as in real life, a thick skin helps one to hear opinions that disagree with one’s own. I’ve been agreed with and disagreed with on this forum and I have of course taken offense at some responses to my posts. However, I don’t see people who disagree with me as trying to belittle me and would not accuse them of doing so. I agree with you that a sense of humor is also useful when posting.

ThreadKiller is my moniker, and not necessarily reflective of my modus operandi.

Forumosa encourages lively debate and expression of diverse opinions. Savvon – a sincere welcome to the forum. I was neither painting you with a wide brush or trying to kill your thread, which I hope will get some more traffic.

[bob]

@Savvon

The way I see it, this person has a biased opinion about me simply for the fact that I am a foreign teacher and is the root of their attitude towards me.

Where are you from?