Reporting from the frontlines of the dog vs. cat war

pretty much anytime i need a dog to listen i wait for him/her to slip up then take them by the back of the neck like mommy would carry a pup. i gently, but firmly/swiftly put them flat ont eh ground and hold their head down to the floor completely paralyzing them (careful not to break tehir legs or crush them, be gentle but strong). i then make sure he/she sees whatever it is i am not happy with, add some aggressive tones and wait a few seconds. when they get it, i let them up, stare into their eyes angry like and wait again. they then tend to play sad/sit etc and then i give them some love afterwards once the situation fades a bit. Has worked a treat in almost all circumstances, even “wild” dogs that attack people. they dont dare after. its just like brobronek says, pack leader, be dominant. and if you are female, talk deep and strong like a guy, seems to work better. our dogs wont listen to women, but if they pretend to have my angry voice, they listen right away. after that it is jsut staying on it and being consistent, which is where i tend to fail.

:astonished:

So many years here, so many threads, so many conversations, and he still uses if… Ayioo, Takeshi, what am I doing wrong?

Yep, I have used the paralyzing stance when he attacks other dogs on the walk, gets us funny looks. usually, he responds to hand signals, deep voices I haven’t used.

are they yours?

Take down all gates, you’re reinforcing the idea that they have territory by giving them territory to defend.

This all goes on until you decide it stops and put an absolute stop to it.

Make sure the rooms are clear of extra items so there aren’t hidden areas so the cats can feel safe and comfortable. Give some sparse high perches so the cats can be in a relaxed state instead of feeling they’re about to be chased. Drag the dog into the room he doesn’t think he’s allowed in to completely crush the idea of territory. Remember, the entire house is YOUR territory which you kindly share with them. Put their dishes next to each other and lord over that area when they eat, immediately ending any disagreement between them.

They’re like kids, they’re doing what works and what they think you want since they get rewarded from this behavior. If you want them to use a new strategy, stop the old one from working and show them something they can do which will work and which you find acceptable.

[quote=“brobronek”]The problem is that you can not be objective as you r not the pack leader.
…
Please, take time to watch Cesar and try to learn how to make a dog surrender.
The real problem is not your dog.
The problem is the human behind the leash.[/quote]
Dogs split off from wolves ages ago and careful observation of wolves in their natural environment shows that even wolves don’t exhibit the hierarchal, submissive dominant pack behavior so many people are fond of citing. I’ve only seen one episode of the dog whisperer and what I saw was Cesar pinching and kicking dogs. He was consistent about it, which is something, but I still don’t think that’s the best way. Punishment results in faster behavior change, because our mind latches on to memories of things that we perceive as dangerous. But over-using punishment causes long-term problems especially if not applied consistently (and it’s REALLY hard to be consistent without years of practice.)

Animals are living, autonomous beings. They will never do everything you want them to do regardless of whether you adopt the “I AM GOD! SUBMIT!!!” philosophy. Not only will they not become mindless slaves to your will, but constant attempts to assert your dominance will more likely lead to a nervous, confused animal than anything else (it’s really hard to stay consistent with punishment because this behavior isn’t instinctual to you, and the dog will be suffering while you’re learning). A nervous, confused animal is usually a badly behaved animal, especially when that animal is a dog.
Of course certain behaviors make everybody miserable and those are best dealt with using the principles of behavioral psychology with a really light hand on punishment. Animals usually don’t understand what you’re punishing them for because it’s usually too tough to bust out the consequence fast enough after the bad behavior. Even minor lapses in timing can cause confusion for the animal. Good behavior is easier to pair with rewards because it usually lasts longer.
I suggest “Don’t Shoot the Dog” by Karen Pryor for a good introductory text on behavior psychology. Works on people too.

It sounds like your pets are in a constant state of anxiety, Icon. I don’t think that’s necessarily your fault- no reason for you to be in an even bigger state of anxiety over your own behavior. They’ll sense that.
I think the best you can do is to exude calm confidence. Our pets look to us to see if a situation is dangerous. If your body language is tense and jerky, they will be nervous and act out. If your body language is soft and relaxed, they’re more likely to calm down. I agree with Skoster’s suggestion of nixing the territorial stuff. I’d also lay on the positive reinforcement when they’re getting on well together, even for a few seconds. Lots of treats and loves and pets. In time, pair preferred activities with proximity to the enemy :wink: I wouldn’t put food bowls in the mix until they are a bit more chill. Food tends to heighten anxiety and territorial behavior. Feed them separately except for maybe small treats as rewards if they go 5 seconds without being pissy at each other. Reward even tiny bouts of good behavior, and nudge that behavior into the behavior you want most. It’s called “shaping.”

IF you use positive reinforcement instead of punishments, your animals will be more relaxed and your relationship with them will not be damaged. They need to feel safe with you first and foremost, and beating your chest to establish dominance is not going to make them feel safe with you (or any humans).

I’ve had 9 rescue dogs in and out of my house with my cat and all of them have gotten along (even though the same dogs chased cats outdoors/were aggressive with unknown small fuzzy things). All I did was hold my cat the first time a new dog rolled in and make it clear, “this is my buddy. I don’t want her hurt.” I didn’t act all nervous and anxious when the dog approached to sniff, just stayed relaxed and knew that if the dog got out of control all I’d have to do to save the cat is stand up. After that I observed closely for a day or two to intervene if there was a problem but it was never necessary. All of them stayed together in one big room when I wasn’t home. No problems. 9 dogs, all with different temperaments. Not saying I did anything right-- probably I was mostly lucky :wink:

[quote=“NonTocareLeTete”][quote=“brobronek”]The problem is that you can not be objective as you r not the pack leader.
…
Please, take time to watch Cesar and try to learn how to make a dog surrender.
The real problem is not your dog.
The problem is the human behind the leash.[/quote]
Dogs split off from wolves ages ago and careful observation of wolves in their natural environment shows that even wolves don’t exhibit the hierarchal, submissive dominant pack behavior so many people are fond of citing. I’ve only seen one episode of the dog whisperer and what I saw was Cesar pinching and kicking dogs. He was consistent about it, which is something, but I still don’t think that’s the best way. Punishment results in faster behavior change, because our mind latches on to memories of things that we perceive as dangerous. But over-using punishment causes long-term problems especially if not applied consistently (and it’s REALLY hard to be consistent without years of practice.)

Animals are living, autonomous beings. They will never do everything you want them to do regardless of whether you adopt the “I am GOD! SUBMIT!!!” philosophy. Not only will they not become mindless slaves to your will, but constant attempts to assert your dominance will more likely lead to a nervous, confused animal than anything else (it’s really hard to stay consistent with punishment because this behavior isn’t instinctual to you, and the dog will be suffering while you’re learning). A nervous, confused animal is usually a badly behaved animal, especially when that animal is a dog.
Of course certain behaviors make everybody miserable and those are best dealt with using the principles of behavioral psychology with a really light hand on punishment. Animals usually don’t understand what you’re punishing them for because it’s usually too tough to bust out the consequence fast enough after the bad behavior. Even minor lapses in timing can cause confusion for the animal. Good behavior is easier to pair with rewards because it usually lasts longer.
I suggest “Don’t Shoot the Dog” by Karen Pryor for a good introductory text on behavior psychology. Works on people too.

It sounds like your pets are in a constant state of anxiety, Icon. I don’t think that’s necessarily your fault- no reason for you to be in an even bigger state of anxiety over your own behavior. They’ll sense that.
I think the best you can do is to exude calm confidence. Our pets look to us to see if a situation is dangerous. If your body language is tense and jerky, they will be nervous and act out. If your body language is soft and relaxed, they’re more likely to calm down. I agree with Skoster’s suggestion of nixing the territorial stuff. I’d also lay on the positive reinforcement when they’re getting on well together, even for a few seconds. Lots of treats and loves and pets. In time, pair preferred activities with proximity to the enemy :wink: I wouldn’t put food bowls in the mix until they are a bit more chill. Food tends to heighten anxiety and territorial behavior. Feed them separately except for maybe small treats as rewards if they go 5 seconds without being pissy at each other. Reward even tiny bouts of good behavior, and nudge that behavior into the behavior you want most. It’s called “shaping.”

IF you use positive reinforcement instead of punishments, your animals will be more relaxed and your relationship with them will not be damaged. They need to feel safe with you first and foremost, and beating your chest to establish dominance is not going to make them feel safe with you (or any humans).

I’ve had 9 rescue dogs in and out of my house with my cat and all of them have gotten along (even though the same dogs chased cats outdoors/were aggressive with unknown small fuzzy things). All I did was hold my cat the first time a new dog rolled in and make it clear, “this is my buddy. I don’t want her hurt.” I didn’t act all nervous and anxious when the dog approached to sniff, just stayed relaxed and knew that if the dog got out of control all I’d have to do to save the cat is stand up. After that I observed closely for a day or two to intervene if there was a problem but it was never necessary. All of them stayed together in one big room when I wasn’t home. No problems. 9 dogs, all with different temperaments. Not saying I did anything right-- probably I was mostly lucky :wink:[/quote]

The only thing I disagree with there is the last line, I bet it was a lot less about luck than about doing it right.

The food thing, probably right too. I tend to be aggressive in getting towards the end result and one of the things I actively work on is pacing. That said, I do think there need to be activities involving all the animals so they get used to spending calm, relaxed time with you and each other.

Well, this weekend I went full focus on getting all parties to live in peace. Took down the gates, went about my business, corrected the dog when necessary. By Sunday he was making progress, no running after the cats… until they ambushed him and nearly tore him apart… You should have seen it, it was something from a military maneuver textbook. Distract, attack from all sides. Took him to a friend’s house all evening for poor doggie to cool down.

So the gates are back up, but at least there is less barking. Focus now on Galaxy’s video’s, not Cesar’s.

[quote=“Icon”]Well, this weekend I went full focus on getting all parties to live in peace. Took down the gates, went about my business, corrected the dog when necessary. By Sunday he was making progress, no running after the cats… until they ambushed him and nearly tore him apart… You should have seen it, it was something from a military maneuver textbook. Distract, attack from all sides. Took him to a friend’s house all evening for poor doggie to cool down.

So the gates are back up, but at least there is less barking. Focus now on Galaxy’s video’s, not Cesar’s.[/quote]

Well, the war has taken a turn for the worse. We have heavy casualties.

Last night, when I got home, I found Toto pinned under the baby gate. He looked dead and did not reply to my calls. He had been pinned who knows how long and one of his hind legs was swollen. Rush, rush to the vet.

Thank goodness it was not serious, poor thing. But the vet has recommended to keep him in his crate when I am not home, so he can avoid that or worse. Or lock the cats in a separate room.

[quote=“Icon”]Well, the war has taken a turn for the worse. We have heavy casualties.

Last night, when I got home, I found Toto pinned under the baby gate. He looked dead and did not reply to my calls. He had been pinned who knows how long and one of his hind legs was swollen. Rush, rush to the vet.

Thank goodness it was not serious, poor thing. But the vet has recommended to keep him in his crate when I am not home, so he can avoid that or worse. Or lock the cats in a separate room.[/quote]

lock the cat. everytime you find toto being bullied when you are gone, lock the cat immediately and let toto run free for a day.

Cats, dear. There is 4 of them. And if I lock them every time they bully Toto or Bobby… they would never see the sun in their 9 lives. sigh

what if…

you take a day to lock all cats in a room, then bring toto in and spend the entire time there with them. if the cats attack toto then … i don’t know… i wanna say taze them, but i know that would be wrong…

oh ok, a web-site says:
shake a rock-filled can at them.

spray bottle them with water.

if you have those super cats that enjoys water, use lime juice instead

do that for a day, maybe they’ll learn? or call that bald guy with glasses on TV…

There will be consequences. Last time I tried something along those lines, they pooped on my bed. Retaliation is swift.

But you’re right, I have to persevere. They are all getting old, it is not as if they can get any faster, can’t they?

uhmmmm

Too many four legged things, Icon… and I like cats and dogs, but…

[quote=“jesus80”]uhmmmm

Too many four legged things, Icon… and I like cats and dogs, but…[/quote]

I know, I know. But the cats came on their own (12 years ago), Toto they swore wouldn’t live more than a year, and I was hoping to give Bobby away…

by the way, what breed is toto, the problem might lie with him as well?

Maltese. He’s elderly, about 17 years old, and he’s blind. He also suffers from seizures and heart problems, so all this commotion is not good for him.

The cats are bigger than him, and bigger than Bobby.

Maltese. He’s elderly, about 17 years old, and he’s blind. He also suffers from seizures and heart problems, so all this commotion is not good for him.

The cats are bigger than him, and bigger than Bobby.[/quote]

yeah, maybe the issue is with the dogs… small dogs tend to be tense and feel threatened. So perhaps the trick is to calm the dogs.

This would make a good Cesar Millan Jackson Galaxy crossover show…

Icon, try to rub the dog with the clothes the cats use for sleeping this might work.

Hey Icon, did you try the clothes / smell trick? I think that it’s used not only for cat mums and baby cats to be adopted, but for cats and dogs to get along. Give it a try and let me know how it worked…