Return of Pinyin Wars


#21

I just want a system I can input into Google maps and actually get an address in Taiwan. Best case scenario is it gives me a few choices in China…


#22

Bullshit. Rubish.

They should use BoPoMoFo, so every foreigner could find the addresses easily.


#23

Worst idea ever.

(European businessman arrives in Taiwan for BioTaiwan exhibit at Nangang Exhibition Center)

A: Excuse me, I’m looking for the … uh…
B: 南港 Exhibition Center?
A: Oh yes. How do you spell that?
B: ㄋㄢˊ ㄍㄤˇ Exhibition Center
A: Uh… maybe just write down the road name for me…
B: OK, it’s ㄐㄧㄥ ㄇㄠˋ 2nd Road.
A: Maybe I’ll just head back to the airport then…
B: Which one? ㄙㄨㄥ ㄕㄢ or ㄊㄠˊ ㄩㄢˊˊ?

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#24

i was turned off by pinyin for the longest time because of the different systems. but it only took a mental decision and about 10 minutes to get the knack for it. I was one of those guys that started way way back with the old nokia cell phones with the bopomofo keypads. i was lightning quick on that and had a great time putting together sentences in chinese using bopomofo and was very chuffed with myself, but on a computer keyboard, i just could never crack it. Do you all remember how it used to be? 5 boxes popping up at the same time, smoke literally coming out of the keyboard as people ferociously typed to produce one sentence in chinese.

With the advances in AI, and auto-complete it’s really very easy using pinyin. One big hassle with typing chinese though is the different operating systems and software platforms and default simplified vs traditional settings in a lot of applications in multinational companies IT systems. often the character you need isn’t there! and you just search and search and scroll and scroll…very frustrating at times


#25

The devil has put it into my head to propose a new pinyin system harmonizing each of the old ones, and also making them compatible with Babylonian.


#26

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Worst idea ever.

(European businessman arrives in Taiwan for BioTaiwan exhibit at Nangang Exhibition Center)

A: Excuse me, I’m looking for the … uh…
B: 南港 Exhibition Center?
A: Oh yes. How do you spell that?
B: ㄋㄢˊ ㄍㄤˇ Exhibition Center
A: Uh… maybe just write down the road name for me…
B: OK, it’s ㄐㄧㄥ ㄇㄠˋ 2nd Road.
A: Maybe I’ll just head back to the airport then…
B: Which one? ㄙㄨㄥ ㄕㄢ or ㄊㄠˊ ㄩㄢˊˊ?

<[/quote]
Just for the record… I was kidding :stuck_out_tongue:


#27

The best solution is to listen to how most Taiwanese speak, and you’d come to the realization that the ㄓㄔㄕcolumn and the ㄗㄘㄙcolumn are in fact one. Whatever variations between are only a matter of habit (sometimes inconsistent even by the same person) and insignificant anyway. How a consonant is pronounced depends on what vowel that follows, and on whether it is the first syllable or not.

Proposal: Just merge ㄗㄘㄙ with ㄓㄔㄕ as shown below. It’s going to be fine.

ㄐ ja ji ju je jo [strike]jö[/strike]
ㄑcha chi chu chie cho [strike]chö[/strike]
ㄒsha shi shu shie sho [strike]sö[/strike]

ㄗ za [strike]zï[/strike] zu ze zo zö
ㄘ tsa tsï tsu [strike]tse[/strike] tso tsö
ㄙ sa sï su se so sö

ㄓ za zï zu [strike]ze[/strike] zo zö
ㄔ tsa tsï tsu [strike]tse[/strike] tso tsö
ㄕ sa si su se so sö

example1 支持 zïtsï
example2 政治 zöngzï
example3 自私 zïsï
example4 賊 zei
example5 誰 sei


#28

[quote=“sofun”]The best solution is to listen to how most Taiwanese speak, and you’d come to the realization that the ㄓㄔㄕcolumn and the ㄗㄘㄙcolumn are in fact one. Whatever variations between are only a matter of habit (sometimes inconsistent even by the same person) and insignificant anyway. How a consonant is pronounced depends on what vowel that follows, and on whether it is the first syllable or not.

Proposal: Just merge ㄗㄘㄙ with ㄓㄔㄕ as shown below. It’s going to be fine.

ㄐ ja ji ju je jo [strike]jö[/strike]
ㄑcha chi chu chie cho [strike]chö[/strike]
ㄒsha shi shu shie sho [strike]sö[/strike]

ㄗ za [strike]zï[/strike] zu ze zo zö
ㄘ tsa tsï tsu [strike]tse[/strike] tso tsö
ㄙ sa sï su se so sö

ㄓ za zï zu [strike]ze[/strike] zo zö
ㄔ tsa tsï tsu [strike]tse[/strike] tso tsö
ㄕ sa si su se so sö

example1 支持 zïtsï
example2 政治 zöngzï
example3 自私 zïsï
example4 賊 zei
example5 誰 sei[/quote]

Other than the Chinese characters, I don’t understand a thing you just wrote.


#29

Sofun, I don’t agree. Taiwan has a whole range of pronunciations. My mom-in-law says 灰機 for airplane, but plenty of other people say 飛機 and some even say 飛 or 灰 + ㄗㄧ.

That being said, there are some strange Beijing-centric standards applied to both Hanyu Pinyin and Tongyong Pinyin; for example ㄧㄢ for 菸, when the IPA for just about all Taiwanese speakers would look more like /jɛn/

But that’s beside the point. Mandarin is the language of northeastern China, so it makes sense to use the Chinese Romanization system as a spelling base. If you’re really against that, I wouldn’t totally be against changing all the street names (in Latin letters) to the appropriate local language: Hokkien, Hakka, or aboriginal. It would be cool to ride down Tiong-sua Road.


#30

It’s Nakayama Road. It should have been Nakayama all along. He went by the name Nakayama Kikori and for the few times he visited Taiwan, he would have been called 中山さん、中山先生 (nakayama sensei)


#31

Makes sense for Northern Chinese.


#32

Makes sense for Northern Chinese.[/quote]

Or for anyone who speaks the language of the Northern Chinese. It’s really, really nonsensical to suggest that Mandarin speakers in Taiwan, Singapore, and China should each have their own distinct Romanization systems because of small variances in pronunciation. The impact caused by the Tongyong-Pinyin divide is easily much much much huger than the very small difference between British and American spelling standards.


#33

Makes sense for Northern Chinese.[/quote]

Or for anyone who speaks the language of the Northern Chinese. It’s really, really nonsensical to suggest that Mandarin speakers in Taiwan, Singapore, and China should each have their own distinct Romanization systems because of small variances in pronunciation. The impact caused by the Tongyong-Pinyin divide is easily much much much huger than the very small difference between British and American spelling standards.[/quote]

More nonsensical than China and SG having one style of Hanzi and Taiwan and HK having another? :slight_smile:


#34

The whole input and romanization of Chinese characters…talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Only takes about ten minutes to learn the different systems. Just do what you have to do and get on with life!


#35

Makes sense for Northern Chinese.[/quote]

Or for anyone who speaks the language of the Northern Chinese. It’s really, really nonsensical to suggest that Mandarin speakers in Taiwan, Singapore, and China should each have their own distinct Romanization systems because of small variances in pronunciation. The impact caused by the Tongyong-Pinyin divide is easily much much much huger than the very small difference between British and American spelling standards.[/quote]

More nonsensical than China and SG having one style of Hanzi and Taiwan and HK having another? :slight_smile:[/quote]

The Japanese Kanji is also unique, but it doesn’t hurt comprehension. By Hok’s logic, the Japanese is using Kanji, so they should just follow exactly…who?


#36

I think it makes a lot of sense. These are three different places with different cultures and languages. Applying the respective Romanization helps understanding the context.


#37

Not really. Romanizations serve a few purposes:

  1. Typing
  2. International naming (i.e., maps)
  3. Accessibility for people who do not read the local alphabet (how should English-language history books write 蔣介石’s name?)
  4. Language learners

Introducing more than one system only makes each of these more difficult.


#38

Names including place names are especially locale-dependent, therefore it makes zero sense to impose a so-called “unified romanization.”

The point of using Hanji is preciously not to have the same pronunciation.


#39

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Not really. Romanizations serve a few purposes:

  1. Typing
  2. International naming (i.e., maps)
  3. Accessibility for people who do not read the local alphabet (how should English-language history books write 蔣介石’s name?)
  4. Language learners

Introducing more than one system only makes each of these more difficult.[/quote]

I’ll add postal delivery as being a big issue. The post office does reasonably well trying to decipher some highly butchered addresses, but they aren’t always successful. I live in a small village, and occasionally I receive a letter not intended for me because the postman can’t make heads or tails out of the Romanized address, so he just delivers it to me since I’m the only foreigner around here. Of course I return those letters, but it’s unfortunate for the intended recipient.


#40

[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”][quote=“Hokwongwei”]Not really. Romanizations serve a few purposes:

  1. Typing
  2. International naming (i.e., maps)
  3. Accessibility for people who do not read the local alphabet (how should English-language history books write 蔣介石’s name?)
  4. Language learners

Introducing more than one system only makes each of these more difficult.[/quote]

I’ll add postal delivery as being a big issue. The post office does reasonably well trying to decipher some highly butchered addresses, but they aren’t always successful. I live in a small village, and occasionally I receive a letter not intended for me because the postman can’t make heads or tails out of the Romanized address, so he just delivers it to me since I’m the only foreigner around here. Of course I return those letters, but it’s unfortunate for the intended recipient.[/quote]

  • doing searches online

Bottom line is. Use ONE system for all instances, throughout the island and STICK TO IT. Teach the system to all students in school. Use the system that is most widely accepted throughout the world. End of discussion. On to more important matters. Why waste so many resources on this? Unnecessary and pointless.