Have to agree with Blaquesmith’s assessment: people are racist, but not violently so. As someone else said, it’s the country-bumpkin “look! A black man! Let’s poke it with a stick and see what it does!” sort. The violence - when it happens - comes from a different place in their head, and there is a very dysfunctional cultural element that heaps shit onto people’s heads “for their own good”. It’s actually not much different to what we do to people in “the west”, but it’s amped up to the point where a lot of people just go a little bit craaaaazy. 
i think in most cases people are ignorant, not racist. theres a clear difference. taiwan is mostly homogeneous and citizens dont have exposure to other races/cultures and therefore dont know how to comprehend and interact with them.
No, it’s not different from what people do anywhere, but the problem is when, instead of venting out the stress and aggression that built up all day (or week), you end up exploding with years of accumulated aggression. That’s when tragedies happen.
All the examples of racism I gave came from university-level, educated people. That’s not ignorance. Being homogeneous and not having exposure is not an excuse. When I was a kid growing up in Barcelona, you seldom saw people from other countries, much less from other races. That soon began changing, and I’ve never complained, nor did anyone from my family. I distinctly remember once, in the subway, when I became aware that there were people from at least 3 or 4 different continents, with lots of foreigners, every one of them with their style in clothing… the first thought that came to me was “this is so awesome!” I was really delighted, because in that moment, I felt like we belonged to a broad world out there, with many different cultures and many different people, and we were part of it. Not everyone can appreciate that, and they feel quickly threatened by people from other cultures, even if they are educated people.
Of course, I never pointed or stared at them saying “waiguoren, waiguoren” or something like that.
it’s just human nature to stick with your own kind and stare at others. it happens everywhere and throughout history of human civilization. i wouldnt take it personally if i were you. not everyone is as educated and understand etiquette as much as you and others.
Yeah it’s human nature to stick spears into animals and disagreeable people.
Wouldn’t take it personally if I was you 
. Been doing it for thousands of years
[quote=“Blaquesmith”]
All the examples of racism I gave came from university-level, educated people. That’s not ignorance. Being homogeneous and not having exposure is not an excuse. When I was a kid growing up in Barcelona, you seldom saw people from other countries, much less from other races. That soon began changing, and I’ve never complained, nor did anyone from my family. I distinctly remember once, in the subway, when I became aware that there were people from at least 3 or 4 different continents, with lots of foreigners, every one of them with their style in clothing… the first thought that came to me was “this is so awesome!” I was really delighted, because in that moment, I felt like we belonged to a broad world out there, with many different cultures and many different people, and we were part of it. Not everyone can appreciate that, and they feel quickly threatened by people from other cultures, even if they are educated people.
Of course, I never pointed or stared at them saying “waiguoren, waiguoren” or something like that.[/quote]
Blaquesmith, concluding from a few random experiences and random news reports that Taiwanese are in general racist and “walking time bombs” is really not a fair or reasonable assessment, I think. And at the same time you seem to imply that people from your own country are in usually very open-minded and welcoming to people from other parts of the world, all based on your own feelings and your family’s attitude. But even if that was not your intention, it can be a bit misleading.
When I was visiting Barcelona almost 20 years ago, I came across a grafitti on a wall that read “MIERDA CHINA”. I’ve always wondered if it was really an anti Chinese slogan (which seemed somewhat improbable to me), or if it had some hidden meaning that was not directed at the Chinese at all. When I pointed out the grafitti to my brother and being asked about the meaning, I could only guess that it must mean Chinese shit, and his immediate response was “racist assholes”, though he did not extrapolate this sentiment to all Spaniards in general. I’ve never asked any of my Spanish friends to clarify for me out of fear of somehow embarrassing them. But I guess it’s safe to ask this on discussion board. So, if you don’t mind, what’s your take on the “MIERDA CHINA”, Blaquesmith? I still believe that I probably just misunderstood.
Uhm, nobody asked me but I guess I’m qualified to give you a quick explanation on it(or how I see it): most likely the person who wrote that did it out of xenophobia and not racism, although sometimes boundaries are slim and not so clear. In Spain in general people do not complain much about Chinese, although it is true that they way of making business is spoiling greatly the local small business, hence people do not like… their business. Then it is also true that people keep buying “shit” from them. Also “mierda” (shit) could refer to the quality of their products, usually quite substandard in many ways.
Spain has very racists idiots and then a whole range of people from racists to absolutely tolerant with anybody (even beyond stupidity, like for example, to think that only because somebody is an immigrant he or she is a lovely person plus a victim of everything you can imagine).
To sum it up… there’s racism in Spain, more or less the same than everywhere, but in this case, I’m afraid that that grafiti is more related with practical issues, money, and xenophobia if anything.
Addendum: There’s some stupid racism in Taiwan, but as far as I know, it’s like childish stupid prejudices and not related with violence at all, which is the freaking topic of this thread. I don’t think that any Taiwanese is expecting black people to be violent or gangs; this can happen in Europe because we do have black immigrants who deal with drugs and steal people on the streets (and I’m not saying that that’s what black people do… I see some of you coming!), but here in Taiwan these stereotypes are way too absurd.
[quote=“GC Rider”][quote=“Blaquesmith”]
All the examples of racism I gave came from university-level, educated people. That’s not ignorance. Being homogeneous and not having exposure is not an excuse. When I was a kid growing up in Barcelona, you seldom saw people from other countries, much less from other races. That soon began changing, and I’ve never complained, nor did anyone from my family. I distinctly remember once, in the subway, when I became aware that there were people from at least 3 or 4 different continents, with lots of foreigners, every one of them with their style in clothing… the first thought that came to me was “this is so awesome!” I was really delighted, because in that moment, I felt like we belonged to a broad world out there, with many different cultures and many different people, and we were part of it. Not everyone can appreciate that, and they feel quickly threatened by people from other cultures, even if they are educated people.
Of course, I never pointed or stared at them saying “waiguoren, waiguoren” or something like that.[/quote]
Blaquesmith, concluding from a few random experiences and random news reports that Taiwanese are in general racist and “walking time bombs” is really not a fair or reasonable assessment, I think. And at the same time you seem to imply that people from your own country are in usually very open-minded and welcoming to people from other parts of the world, all based on your own feelings and your family’s attitude. But even if that was not your intention, it can be a bit misleading.
When I was visiting Barcelona almost 20 years ago, I came across a grafitti on a wall that read “MIERDA CHINA”. I’ve always wondered if it was really an anti Chinese slogan (which seemed somewhat improbable to me), or if it had some hidden meaning that was not directed at the Chinese at all. When I pointed out the grafitti to my brother and being asked about the meaning, I could only guess that it must mean Chinese shit, and his immediate response was “racist assholes”, though he did not extrapolate this sentiment to all Spaniards in general. I’ve never asked any of my Spanish friends to clarify for me out of fear of somehow embarrassing them. But I guess it’s safe to ask this on discussion board. So, if you don’t mind, what’s your take on the “MIERDA CHINA”, Blaquesmith? I still believe that I probably just misunderstood.[/quote]
Oh, I’m sure you saw the graffitti. It can be racist, or it may be complaining about chinese products. As I say, there are racists everywhere, and in almost every country of the world (most probably all of them, but I want to leave a little space for optimism). But let me give you an example I’ve experienced here in Taiwan, and I’m sure others have, too: you go to a store (even a high-end store) to buy a present, maybe your wife. You have some questions, and ask a store worker about them. Maybe he/she doesn’t speaks enough english, or maybe he/she is not sure of the answer, so asks the shift manager: “hey, this waiguoren is asking me blah blah blah”. I’m sure many of you can relate. Not “this client” or “this gentleman”, but “this waiguoren”. I have been called that by the people at Cartier store in the fuxing branch of SOGO, and in other stores. After these incidents, I’ve smiled, said thank you and walked out of the store. Well, as the examples go, In a luxury store in Barcelona, Paris, London, or Hong Kong, you’ll be referred as “the client” or “the gentleman”, never as “this foreigner here”. I bet if some worker said that (in front of the client, no less), he or she would be immediately reprimanded or fired.
I’ve discussed this matter with other people from my country which is living here in Taiwan, and generally speaking, the taiwanese people way of thinking is really similar to the way our grandparents’ (or great-grandparents’) generation thought, regarding issues as homosexuality, racism, etc. I’ve talked with some taiwanese who were terribly shocked when I told them I was friends with gay people (I recall perfectly their reaction: “*GASP! Did you even handshaked with THEM?”). Same for their general intolerance/rudeness towards foreigners (the stares, the pointing at the waiguoren…)
And sure, not everyone is like that, thank god. I want to believe the situation is improving, but veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slowly.
taiwanese like most asians are very traditional and conservative. plus taiwan is very isolated and not very internationals thus they dont have a lot of foreigners living there like hong kong and singapore. but i tend to think taiwan is somewhat more progressive than other asian countries. i mean they do have asia’s biggest gay parade - i thought thailand would have that honor but according to the news it’s taiwan. and it seems like gay marriage law might possible get passed sooner than later. i read the surveys and a big percentage of the population support it. that’s pretty progressive.
I don’t know if I can compare Taiwan racism with US/elsewhere racism. I was with a black friend at a hot spring and one TW lady next to her was touching her hair and asking if she permed it, as though she was very curious about it. Yes it’s invasive and she definitely wasn’t comfortable with it but elsewhere racism really consists of slurs (N word, etc.) and sometimes violence or mean gestures. By the way those violence weren’t necessarily triggered by being an asshole, messing with someone else’s girls (which is often the cause of violence in Taiwan) but totally unprovoked violence simply because they hate other race. Hate crimes don’t really happen here (maybe it does but not really that much), but like others have said if you mess with money, girl, face, etc. you can get beat up by a group of Taiwanese.
When was the last time you heard someone of other race (non-Han Chinese) get ganged up, murdered or dragged behind a pickup truck totally unprovoked? Nor do I ever hear of unprovoked violence against homosexuals like Russia. Don’t stick your nose in someone else’s business and you’ll be fine but do watch your back in traffic.
Well there was the Filipino thing a while back, but nobody got hurt as far as I know as discrimination beyond what maids Usually face wasn’t that obvious.
Violent racist incidents are quite rare in the west also, it’s more about discrimination, name calling etc.
Taiwan like most of Asia is slow to change their thinking patterns, crappy education system and the parents and older people hold the money strings …
Singapore has millions of foreigners but Singapore is even worse for its treatment of maids than Taiwan!
So one could say perceptions of money and class trumps everything else in Asia.
yup i totally agree with taiwan luthier. racism and racial violence and violence does not compare with tthe levels of that in the west. the Taiwanese lady touching the black girls hair is more out of curiousity and ignorance than racism. in the west she would be made fun of, mocked in public, maybe beaten up. look at how blacks were treated in the u.s. look at how the soccer fans in europe mock black players calling them monkey and other names. look at the reverse nazi salute made by some players that seems to be a trend now. those are all acts of hate. you definitely dont see those things happen in taiwan.
[quote=“Blaquesmith”]
Oh, I’m sure you saw the graffitti. It can be racist, or it may be complaining about chinese products. As I say, there are racists everywhere, and in almost every country of the world (most probably all of them, but I want to leave a little space for optimism). But let me give you an example I’ve experienced here in Taiwan, and I’m sure others have, too: you go to a store (even a high-end store) to buy a present, maybe your wife. You have some questions, and ask a store worker about them. Maybe he/she doesn’t speaks enough english, or maybe he/she is not sure of the answer, so asks the shift manager: “hey, this waiguoren is asking me blah blah blah”. I’m sure many of you can relate. Not “this client” or “this gentleman”, but “this waiguoren”. I have been called that by the people at Cartier store in the Fuxing branch of SOGO, and in other stores. After these incidents, I’ve smiled, said thank you and walked out of the store. Well, as the examples go, In a luxury store in Barcelona, Paris, London, or Hong Kong, you’ll be referred as “the client” or “the gentleman”, never as “this foreigner here”. I bet if some worker said that (in front of the client, no less), he or she would be immediately reprimanded or fired.
I’ve discussed this matter with other people from my country which is living here in Taiwan, and generally speaking, the taiwanese people way of thinking is really similar to the way our grandparents’ (or great-grandparents’) generation thought, regarding issues as homosexuality, racism, etc. I’ve talked with some taiwanese who were terribly shocked when I told them I was friends with gay people (I recall perfectly their reaction: “*GASP! Did you even handshaked with THEM?”). Same for their general intolerance/rudeness towards foreigners (the stares, the pointing at the waiguoren…)
And sure, not everyone is like that, thank god. I want to believe the situation is improving, but veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slowly.[/quote]
Ok, so now I’m confirmed in my initial interpretation that it must be a racist (and xenophobic) graffiti that I saw in Barcelona in 1995 (to think someone would put a big 4 meters wide graffiti on a wall in public out of dissatisfaction over Chinese products seems a bit naïve to me). Interestingly, I’ve never ever seen anything similar in Taiwan whether in Chinese or English directed at foreigners. The question is now what to make of that information? If I felt personally offended by the slur, I’d probably go around telling everyone I know that people in Spain are quite often racist and have a hate for Chinese (looking) people and that the same could not be said of people in Taiwan with respect to Western foreigners, although there are of course exceptions because, as we all know, “there are idiots in every country”. Thankfully, I’ve met enough genuinely friendly people in Spain to not be influenced by the occasional racial slur.
The point I want to make is that people always have a blind spot for any deficiencies in their own (or favorite) country. If you’re from Spain, you will certainly point out all the good things of Spanish people. If asked by Taiwanese people how Spanish people are, you will probably say that they are generally friendly and open to foreigners, fun-loving, outgoing, etc. Likewise, if you ask some Taiwanese person how they view their own people, that person would very likely say that Taiwanese people are friendly and open to foreigners (and people on this forum have complained about this Taiwanese self-assessment).
I think the example you mentioned about people referring to you as the waiguoren (or maybe also waiguo xiansheng, which would be a bit less “problematic”, I believe) is not necessarily a sign of racism and definitely not of any xenophobic sentiments. It’s certainly lacking style and tact, and it may be considered rude, especially looked at from a Western background. But I don’t think there is reason to assume that these people used this term in a hostile or derogatory sense (perhaps constantly saying “ese extranjero” in Spain would carry such a meaning). So, your argument that “THE Taiwanese” are mostly racist based on this kind of stuff is pretty weak, IMHO. At the same time, I agree that certain racist stereotypes are pretty widespread in Taiwan especially against people of darker complexion (for example most Taiwanese would openly say that they would not like their children to be married to a black person, etc). However, I’m pretty sure that these same stereotypes are equally widespread in Western countries, they’re just not voiced so unashamedly. I don’t think Taiwan’s society is at its core more racist than any of the Western societies (which appears to be what you’re saying) unless you deliberately look at things only at a very superficial level.
PS: I’ve never met any Taiwanese who were genuinely homophobic except for that one person who was a hardcore Christian.
I’ve run into plenty of homophobes. “You like Hebe [a singer, for those who don’t know? But you know she’s a lesbian right?”
As for racism, I think that word is abused somewhat these days. Being ignorant or insensitive is not in and of itself racism, though it can feed into a larger racist mindset. Racism is the belief that one race or several races is/are superior to another race/races.
Actually, I read that for a while there there was quite a backlash against Chinese shoes because they were literally wiping out the local Spanish industry. I know from friends and exclassmates that racism against us Latin Americans has increased as the economy has crunched in Spain. I also know they have a very ugly name for us that equals the sentiment of the N-word. But that word cannot be compared in any way with the usual “laowai” or even “atoga”. It is not the same purpose/feeling/usage. It is not even at the same height as “quailo”, which even I’ve gotten in Hong Kong. I understand why Basque is upset at being called “the foreigner”, and I guess he’d be also upset in the ol country at being called “the tall guy” or “the fat guy” -el alto, el gordito- by clerks, which I also understand to be the feeling in most places here when they refer to me as “the foreigner”. It is not the most enlightened of phrases and it denotes ignorance more than malice. Yet, it is annoying. However, even more annoying is when they mock your accent. Now that denotes malice and racism and more than ignorance, is an all out effort to annoy. I also understand why Basque would be upset to have this treatment from a place like Cartier, which is supposed to be upscale and hence should have staff better educated than that. Even though most of these places would only get locals and rich Chinese, and allowing for the sighting of a once a year foreigner, it is not kosher. However, in that specific case, I would write to the head office and file a formal complain, as those places tend to take their reputation into consideration. It should be an order from management down not to address the customer that way. As said, it is not the standard. Most people here would not understand what the problem is or what upsets us, as they have never encountered such situation themselves.
Plus, I guess, in Spain, like in the ol country, pointing out “the foreigner” in a crowd is a bit of a challenge -heck, a chino can be a local most of the time- so calling someone “el extranjero” might not be as simple as here -unless it is a tourist in clear tourist garb, and even then it is hit or miss. Here, we furriners stand out as a sore thumb.
Yet, I must say that in the ol country, being signaled as a foreigner is also not such a good thing. Tourists are welcomed, but also target of thieves and 50% overcharge. Also, there are rivalries between countries, and the person might expect violence in that regard. And we have also stereotypes against people of darker skin. sigh
Wrong. Spanish people are generally xenophobic and look at people with different cultures with contempt, specially against moors and north africans, and people coming from ex-colonies (mainly dark skinned south americans and filipinos). The muslims in general are also not appreciated. And then, there are the gipsies, who were for many years the usual and more convenient scapegoat, specially during Franco’s dictatorship). The places with most foreign visitors are quite different and those xenophobic are far less numerous. The coastal regions are really used to trade and interact with other countries, so they’re usually more open-minded.
Remember that almost the entire territory of Spain was reconquered to the Islam (who had began the conquest of the Peninsula in the year 711), and there are many people who still think of the muslims as “the enemy”. Also, in 1492, the Catholic monarchs (Ferdinand and Isabella, the “good guys” as many of the modern spanish citizens view them) signed the Alhambra Decree, basically expelling all the Jews that were living in Spain at that time. They used the other good guys, the Spanish Inquisition, to find sephardi who changed their family names to try and remain in Spain (although then still wasn’t Spain, but Castilla, Aragon, Navarra, and Granada, all ruled by the same monarchs). During Franco’s dictatorship there were purges of jews, gipsies, freemasons, communists, anarchists and generally anyone who wasn’t white and catholic (although there were people from the ex-colonies, but they were always considered second class citizens and denied all superior education, and they were required to be catholic and god-fearing or immediately deported… or worse).
I won’t use pink-colored glasses with Spain, or any part of it (or any other country, obviously). Facts are facts, and thank god, facts tell us that unprejudiced people exist, but sometimes there are difficult to find. And sometimes, when the environment (government, media and society in general) gathers certain conditions, people remembers those non-rational prejudices, often because of demagogues. In Greece, for example, the “golden dawn” extreme right-wing party, which often resorts to violence to make their points, is rising a lot both in power and adepts. In Spain, an extreme right-wing party (called Vox) was created recently, its main goal to take out voters from the ruling People’s Party, who until recently monopolized all the right wing spectrum in Spain. People from this party, Vox, already suggested military intervention against spanish citizens if they insist on voting to ask about secession from Spain. But of course, they defend the spanish democracy. Such good guys.
They should eat some tacos…
Yay stereotypes!
No. That’s in Mexico.
Yay stereotypes!
No. That’s in Mexico.[/quote]
Empanadas? 
Yay stereotypes!
No. That’s in Mexico.[/quote]
Empanadas? [/quote]
Well, the Empanada Gallega (the one with tuna, not the meat one) is totally mind-blowing. In fact, I think I may try to make some here in Taiwan, because that’s one of the things I miss most. I grew up in a city next to Barcelona, but in my neighbourhood there were a lot of immigrants from Galicia. Every bakery there had their own empanada, and it was great… you could go and buy a recently made piece if you felt like it, any time of the day. Just out of the oven… Oh, how I miss that…