Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?


#521

What’s going on with my comments there?


#522

Basically, Hansioux is saying he doesn’t like the KMT very much. Did that clear it up?


#523

I don’t like them either. Code between agreeing parties should be more understandable.

Btw, when are you going to respond to my posts from way back? :wink:


#524

I don’t know of any resistance against Taiwan’s return to Chinese rule among Taiwan residents in 1945. There was no armed resistance against the ROC Army when they accepted the Japanese surrender either.

The Japanese in contrast were resisted from the very first occupation soldier that invaded the island. Both Chinese and Aboriginal residents of Taiwan fought (for different motives) against the Japanese.

And ROC rule is definitely not an occupation:

  1. Residents who were on Taiwan pre-1945 have never been 2nd class citizens in an Apartheid (South Africa) or even Jim-Crow-Negro (USA) fashion. Neither were they excluded from political participation. How else could Lee Teng-hui, who even volunteered for the Japanese Army become a cabinet minister, mayor of Taipei, Kuomintang chairman and eventually president? It was sure easier to have a KMT-waishengren background, yet people like Lee ateng-hui or Lien Chan prove one could just as well have been Hoklo to succeed.

  2. In terms of citizenship, there is an uninterrupted continuation from the Chinese Empire to ROC (or PRC). That is the very nature of nation states. The ROC being just a rump state controlling tiny bits of its former territory has no constitutional effect unless the constitution is changed and incorporates a localized identity rather than a Pan-Chinese one. But until then the uninterrupted continuation of “China” on Taiwan remains - even if only recognized domestically by Taipei and Beijing. In reality the Republic of China is very much alive on Taiwan and for that reason Mainlanders are not regarded as foreigners, Taiwanese are not regarded as foreigners on the Mainland either (that s just one of the many aspects).

  3. Taiwan residents have as early as 1947 been involved in the decision making of the ROC on a national level. Take the 1947 ROC constitution which was passed by Taiwanese representatives. Take mayoral elections or national assembly elections and since the 1990s legislative and presidential elections. The level of political participation enjoyed by pre-1945 Taiwanese is not different than the participation opportunities enjoyed by those who belong to the so called “waishengren occupation regime”.


#525

A little history is a dangerous thing. Or a good tool for a propagandist.

Taiwanese were considered a “degraded deracinated” people by the KMT government in the early decades. Folk culture and language were suppressed. Talk to any Taiwanese over 40 and he or she will tell you they were beaten if they spoke Taiwanese at school. Even now you meet waishengren who believe they are a better class of people. High-class waishengren is a real term and still used, though much less than before, to exclude.

And Taiwanese began to be invited into the government under CCK. They had barely any presence in the CKS admin.

So yeah, if you skip 3-4 decades you can make a case that Taiwanese didn’t have it too bad under the KMT. :unamused:

I don’t know why people can’t just be honest that the KMT ruled like colonialists for the fist 4 decades, suppressing local culture and language and attempting to rewrite local history and brainwash people into believing they were part of another system and culture that had very little to do with them.

They did this with language, history, religion, food, education, and even architecture, foisting that faux-palace style when Taiwan already had an indigenous style based on southern Chinese traditions. They gave people no choice in this, and rewarded those who learned to fit in and complied.

This can in no way be described as just, fair, democratic or an indication that the people were equal with the ruling class.


#526

Japan did not occupy Taiwan. Taiwan was ceded by a legal treaty.

Taiwan was a colony. Not occupied territory. It makes me sick the way your side is trying to once again rewrite history.


#527

20 years ago children were beaten for all kinds of things at school. Which is terrible. Knowing that Mandarin is the language of instruction and Taiwan is being multi-ethnic should let you understand though: Mandarin is/was the only language everyone in school was able to understand. It’s a matter of inclusion for Mainlanders who spoke many different first languages such as Cantonese or Hui as well as for Hakka.

Beating children for many reasons was OK back then: didn’t do your homework assignment, noisy in class, … But again: beating children is not acceptable. Just speaking Minnan was not a singular reason.

Yes. But there are also certain Hoklo who feel a strange sense of entitlement for this island when in fact their ancestors were just as much “thieves” as the first Waishengren generation.

I agree at least on the central government level. On the provincial / municipal / county / … level it was different. There have been situation of non-partisan Waishengren challenging and KMT Benshengren. This was not the majority but it happened.

Things did improve for all Taiwan residents except Aboriginals, who outside of election time have no advocacy. They could not expect much from the KMT, but it’s not like Aboriginals support the DPP either. The DPP is very Hoklo centered and sort of an ethnic party, look up the term “volk movement”.


#528

20 years ago children were beaten for all kinds of things at school. Which is terrible. Knowing that Mandarin is the language of instruction and Taiwan is being multi-ethnic should let you understand though: Mandarin is/was the only language everyone in school was able to understand. It’s a matter of inclusion for Mainlanders who spoke many different first languages such as Cantonese or Hui as well as for Hakka.
[/quote]

Nonsense. Lots of kids entered school speaking no Mandarin. And many countries have school systems that are able to teach in different languages.

Nice try.

It doesn’t have to be the only reason kids were beaten. But let me make it clear to you: I am not Chinese so refusing to use logic will not make your argument seem better to me.

Glad you admit the first generation of wsr were thieves.

Actually if you look at history it took Taiwan 20 years to catch up to where they had been in the 40s before the KMT arrived.

No, there are very Hoklo centered factions within the party. In any case, they are by far the more modern, rational and progressive of the parties. DPP policy is that citizenship should belong to people who identify with Taiwan (and of course those who were born here). Under Ma, citizenship belongs to those who claim ancestry from the Yellow Emperor.

Let me ask you this: what other modern democratic party in the world still worships an authoritarian leader? What other democratic country still has memorials to a former authoritarian leader?

Why can’t the KMT modernize?


#529

[quote=“hsinhai78”]I don’t know of any resistance against Taiwan’s return to Chinese rule among Taiwan residents in 1945. There was no armed resistance against the ROC Army when they accepted the Japanese surrender either.

The Japanese in contrast were resisted from the very first occupation soldier that invaded the island. Both Chinese and Aboriginal residents of Taiwan fought (for different motives) against the Japanese.
And ROC rule is definitely not an occupation:[/quote]

You are a very good cherry picker, but history speaks for itself, and some of us are capable of reading it.

There may have been some resistance to Japanese rule at first, including those who wanted a Taiwan independent of China, Japan, or any other foreign occupation. In the end, many Taiwanese fought for Japan in WWII, quite willingly, as per your example of Lee, Teng-hui who was willing to enlist.

You claim you don’t know of any resistance against Taiwan’s ‘return to Chinese rule’. Then how do you explain the 228/white terror period in which tens of thousands of Taiwanese were murdered by the Chinese nationalists? Is it because a Taiwanese woman was selling black-market cigarettes?

In the absence of resistance to their rule/occupation, why did the Chinese decide to murder so many local people, including such a high number of high school kids? Was it merely to maintain a monopoly over tobacco sales?


#530

Yep. And in 1945, Taiwan was a lot more sophisticated than in 1895. They were a colony being handed over to a republic by the Americans. Taiwanese had every reason to believe they would be granted a fair degree of autonomy.

So they waited. And when they saw they didn’t like what their deal was, they reacted.

And continued to react, and spend time in jail, and die, until they actually got to decide their fate.


#531

What I am saying is that if we call WSR thieves, we must also call Benshengren thieves. Their deed to the island is as valid (or invalid) as that of the Waishengren population. What about the Aboriginal people? Why do we see hysteric old men from Tainan in front of the Presidential Office yelling “Dai ouan! Dai ouan!” who think they own this island yet Aboriginals are marginalized as drunk Disneyland attractions? “Oh she is aboriginal, she is very dark but her voice is so good!! I also heard they hunt boars and all have crazy sex in the mountains”.

If it was the “citizenship of Taiwan” one gets by naturalizing I could even agree with the DPP. What you become in the process of naturalization is a Chinese citizen in accordance with ROC law and effectively also under PRC law. The DPP should start a citizenship campaign and collect signatures, I am really interested whether the majority of Taiwanese would support losing citizenship rights in mainland China and be treated as foreigners there. I estimate 25% would actually favor a new constitution with the explicit term “Citizenship of Taiwan”. There is much to lose, i.e. unrestricted investment and work opportunities in mainland China and not much to win: through the system of household registration it is possible to restrict people from mainland China from settling in Taiwan permanently without a special reason such as marriage or investing a lot of money. These people generally do not cause trouble anyways.

I don’t think by the way that the DPP favors birthright citizenship in Taiwan like they have it in the US.

[quote=“Mucha Man”] Under Ma, citizenship belongs to those who claim ancestry from the Yellow Emperor.
[/quote]

I don’t think the government of Ma Ying-jeou had the nationality act amended. In fact a few weeks ago a black athlete became a Republic of China citizen and last time I checked Satellite TV and Poagao were white. Not even to mention the thousands of South East Asian brides who naturalized and have the same rights and responsibilities as ethnic Chinese ROC citizens.

[quote=“Charlie Phillips”]

You claim you don’t know of any resistance against Taiwan’s ‘return to Chinese rule’. Then how do you explain the 228/white terror period in which tens of thousands of Taiwanese were murdered by the Chinese nationalists? Is it because a Taiwanese woman was selling black-market cigarettes?

In the absence of resistance to their rule/occupation, why did the Chinese decide to murder so many local people, including such a high number of high school kids? Was it merely to maintain a monopoly over tobacco sales?[/quote]

I wrote about the situation in 1945 when Chinese rule was restored.

I am sure by the way there were also local people murdering local people. Not all members of the security forces were mainlanders.
228 serves as a great example why a proper civilian police force is necessary and young men who lived through the horrors of war are not good to maintain public order. This was not a genocide or planned operation but an overreaction. And there were consequences: the governor of Taiwan province was executed.


#532

How can somebody not mention the massive resistance in Taipei and Kaoshiung around 228, and subsequent murder and torture of thousands of people, many of whom were educated Taiwanese. The subsequent gangster nature of much of KMT politics goes back to CKS himself who used the same method of operation in Shanghai. White terror continued right up to the 1980s.

The rot was from the top down, they had some professionals that they brought over from China but many of them emigrated to the US as soon as was feasible, they had no love for anywhere but themselves.
They should thank Taiwan for giving them the chance to live a better life.

These things happened, and have never been properly accounted for. The KMT was not welcomed so much as steamrolled in and brainwashed young kids through school and military propaganda, so much so that many people in Taiwan today have no clue about the history of their own island!


#533

[quote=“Charlie Phillips”]You are a very good cherry picker, but history speaks for itself, and some of us are capable of reading it.

There may have been some resistance to Japanese rule at first, including those who wanted a Taiwan independent of China, Japan, or any other foreign occupation. In the end, many Taiwanese fought for Japan in WWII, quite willingly, as per your example of Lee, Teng-hui who was willing to enlist.

You claim you don’t know of any resistance against Taiwan’s ‘return to Chinese rule’. Then how do you explain the 228/white terror period in which tens of thousands of Taiwanese were murdered by the Chinese nationalists? Is it because a Taiwanese woman was selling black-market cigarettes?

In the absence of resistance to their rule/occupation, why did the Chinese decide to murder so many local people, including such a high number of high school kids? Was it merely to maintain a monopoly over tobacco sales?[/quote]

Yup. By the 1930’s, the people of Taiwan were very much becoming Japanese and looking towards Showa as their Emperor.


#534

Many of whom were also waishenren.


#535

[quote=“Dirt”]
Yup. By the 1930’s, the people of Taiwan were very much becoming Japanese and looking towards Showa as their Emperor.[/quote]

Taiwan was known as a haven for Japanese pirates since the Ming dynasty and even before. Nothing much has changed in terms of geopolitics and strategy.

An independent Taiwan is a threat to China. That’s why Taiwan is not independent.

An independent Taiwan might choose to develop an aesthetic sensibility, economic and bureaucratic efficiency, and a common sense approach to safety and standards of living.

Such progress was curtailed in 1945. Just visit Okinawa if you want to see the difference.


#536

Fortunately there are real histories the rest of us can read. The aftermath of 228 was planned. After Taiwanese leaders established control and got Governor Chen Yi to agree to listen to their demands he secretly wired CKS and asked for reinforcements. Chen Yi then stalled for time. What happened later was planned and predictable.

George Kerr claimed that CKS knew exactly what Chen Yi would do as the governor had ordered a mass killing of students in Fujian years earlier. As Kerr wrote, “The brutality with which students were tortured and killed in Fukien set something of a record even for China.”

Chen Yi later worked in Zhejiang Province so no, there were no consequences. He was executed because CKS thought he was siding with the communists. Not a bad suspicion considering he had engaged in trade with them as governor of Fujian.


#537

[quote=“Charlie Phillips”][quote=“Dirt”]
Yup. By the 1930’s, the people of Taiwan were very much becoming Japanese and looking towards Showa as their Emperor.[/quote]

Taiwan was known as a haven for Japanese pirates since the Ming dynasty and even before. Nothing much has changed in terms of geopolitics and strategy.

An independent Taiwan is a threat to China. That’s why Taiwan is not independent.

An independent Taiwan might choose to develop an aesthetic sensibility, economic and bureaucratic efficiency, and a common sense approach to safety and standards of living.

Such progress was curtailed in 1945. Just visit Okinawa if you want to see the difference.[/quote]

Taiwan has as much chance of being independent of Japan as the Ryukyu Kingdom which took almost 200 years to be annexed by Japan, but annexed it was. Formosa would be another island of Japan and according to the IMF, Taiwan’s PPP is 38,749. Japan’s is 36,266; economically, your speculation doesn’t bear out because a Taiwan under Japan would have a PPP of 36,266. The people of today’s Taiwan is richer than today’s Japan.

Culturally, the people of Taiwan would be Japanese (hell, Lee Teng-hui even cosplays). There would be no Taiwanese identity, no Taiwanese culture. The Komika Movement strictly outlawed Taiwanese culture and religion.

Absolutely nothing in Japan’s history shows that it would ever willingly allow one of its territories to become independent. On the contrary, everything in Japan’s history points to the fact that it will assimilate any territory it acquires into itself both territorially and culturally. Japan allowing Taiwan to become independent is unfounded and unsupported speculation.


#538

You are seriously going to argue that Taiwan is more prosperous than Japan?

GDP (PPP) in Canada is 43,000. So I guess Taiwan is just slightly behind. Come on. Be serious.

PPP more or less measures what a dollar can buy in a country. It is not average salary.


#539

PPP is a rubbish statistic, but please tell us how RICH Taiwanese are with 22k per month salaries for graduates and 19k minimum monthly pay and 30k per month average salaries central and south Taiwan.

Ridiculous.


#540

The distinction between how the KMT got Taiwan and how Japan got it sounds like a technicality to me. Both times, the island was handed over from one power to another without the consent of the local population. When Japan was coming, some Taiwanese resisted by forming a republic-in-name-only and trying to fight back, not to mention the aboriginal resistance which lasted well into the Japanese rule.

In contrast, when the ROC came, Taiwanese welcomed them with open arms – at first. A lot of broken promises there. Still, I don’t see how the occupation of Taiwan by either force is fundamentally different. Invading foreign power, behind-the-curtains dealings, suppression of local culture… It seems that colonial Japan apologists would twist those fifty years to sound nicer than they were. Japan was just as bad as the KMT, just on different things.

PS: Calling all waishengren thieves is borderline racist and demeans their suffering. A good number of the soldiers (the ones not in power) who came over here didn’t want to, but had no choice in the matter. If you look at statistics, the white terror era “disappeared” more waishengren than benshengren. But if you want to call the ROC government thieves, I don’t take any issue with that. :slight_smile:

Sorry, I’ve had a hell of a month: finishing a thesis and graduating, visiting home, planning a move, trying to plan a wedding, and starting a new job. Care to give me a friendly reminder?