Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?


#561

So, hsinhai78, I’m curious as to how you see Taiwan’s relationship with China developing politically. Do you think it is realistic to hope for political change in China?


#562

I don’t think you understand what Taiwanization means. The majority are certainly in favor of it. Voting for Ma was not a vote in favor of a KMT-style pan-Chinese identity that is about as traditional in any case as General Tso’s Chicken.[/quote]

Oh right. This story again. Just because someone identifies as 台灣人 doesn’t mean they don’t support pan-Chinese identity. For the time being, I have no other choice but to conclude from voting behavior as on the election day polls become worthless. If I was against a pan-Chinese identity and for the eventual independence of Taiwan, why would I vote KMT, especially considering their alleged crimes and desire for eventual unification or at least their staunch opposition to independence.

Your theory is hence inconclusive. Taiwanese vote KMT because deep under all that “we are Taiwanese, we are so different” they pull for naive foreigners, they enjoy having an edge over foreigners in the Chinese market, they enjoy having citizen rights when it comes to working and running companies in Mainland China and they definitely do not want to part with their own history and culture. Taiwanese might dislike Mainlanders for political or etiquette reasons, but consider that to most Taiwanese you sill always be a hairy white monkey foreigner - whereas the Mainlander from Shanghai will not be considered a foreigner by the vast majority of Taiwanese.

Otherwise Taiwanese would vote for TSU and DPP - but I don’t remember these guys winning much lately.[/quote]

I don’t consider English people foreigners either in the way Taiwanese consider me a foreigner. Or most Europeans for that matter. Doesn’t mean I consider myself English or European. Your post makes no sense. Try again.

People identify with the place they grew up in. That’s a universal. Taiwan is distinct from China. This places has had a completely distinct history for over 100 years. That matters. It matters everywhere. People have to be coerced or inculcated with a sense of national belonging to a larger unit.

Do you think Chinese Malaysians think they are part of China? :laughing:

Or Vancouver-born Taiwanese, or Chinese?

Why then Taiwanese who have had a distinct history for over 100 years (and longer when you consider the immigrant experience forced very different patterns of worship and lifestyle to emerge) live under different institutions, cultural expectations, within a different cultural sphere, have entirely different shared memories going back 4 generations, and so on? You think all that is irrelevant when it is completely relevant everywhere else in the world? Why? Because of blood? :unamused:

And voting patterns are very easily explained by the presence of China next door and its constant threats of war should people go too far with a push for independence.


#563

“If I didn’t want to spy on US citizens, I wouldn’t vote for Obama.”

“If I didn’t want a costly war on questionable pretenses, I wouldn’t have voted for Bush.”

Come on, you know that politics are not that simple. Identity is one part of how people vote, but few people are going to put it above issues like the economy, explicit policy, and the future of your national development. Why do people vote KMT? Because they still believe the lie that there is a status quo for Taiwan and the KMT is sworn to protect it.


#564

it’s the same false logic people who insists on using the N word recites.


#565

“If I didn’t want to spy on US citizens, I wouldn’t vote for Obama.”

“If I didn’t want a costly war on questionable pretenses, I wouldn’t have voted for Bush.”

Come on, you know that politics are not that simple. Identity is one part of how people vote, but few people are going to put it above issues like the economy, explicit policy, and the future of your national development. Why do people vote KMT? Because they still believe the lie that there is a status quo for Taiwan and the KMT is sworn to protect it.[/quote]

Very good post. It’s like why would any gay man vote for the Republican Party in the US. Well, plenty do because most people are not single issue voters.


#566

“If I didn’t want to spy on US citizens, I wouldn’t vote for Obama.”

“If I didn’t want a costly war on questionable pretenses, I wouldn’t have voted for Bush.”

Come on, you know that politics are not that simple. Identity is one part of how people vote, but few people are going to put it above issues like the economy, explicit policy, and the future of your national development. Why do people vote KMT? Because they still believe the lie that there is a status quo for Taiwan and the KMT is sworn to protect it.[/quote]

Very good post. It’s like why would any gay man vote for the Republican Party in the US. Well, plenty do because most people are not single issue voters.[/quote]

National identity and independence are different from gay rights. Only 5% of any population are directly affected by the issue of gay rights. National identity and independence affect every citizen and are on a totally different level than fiscal policy, education or the war in Iraq.

You claim Taiwanese care about these issues a lot. But how come that doesn’t reflect in voting patterns? I call BS on you.


#567

[quote=“hsinhai78”]…National identity and independence are different from gay rights. Only 5% of any population are directly affected by the issue of gay rights. National identity and independence affect every citizen and are on a totally different level than fiscal policy, education or the war in Iraq.

You claim Taiwanese care about these issues a lot. But how come that doesn’t reflect in voting patterns? I call BS on you.[/quote]

You can call what you like but the simple facts are one, few people are one-issue voters (even in Quebec the separatists couldn’t get a majority in a referendum); two, Taiwanese are forced to be pragmatic because of the threat from China.

Also you are getting a bit carried away. I did not say Taiwanese care a lot about issues of identity. I said they no longer identify with pan-China but with Taiwan. How much they care about this is certainly open to debate. It would not surprise me if push came to shove that people would pragmatically accept Chinese rule. Doesn’t mean they want it. Or like it. And that’s where you keep tripping up against reality.

You have an inflexible view of identity and a naive understanding of politics and people.


#568

“If I didn’t want to spy on US citizens, I wouldn’t vote for Obama.”

“If I didn’t want a costly war on questionable pretenses, I wouldn’t have voted for Bush.”

Come on, you know that politics are not that simple. Identity is one part of how people vote, but few people are going to put it above issues like the economy, explicit policy, and the future of your national development. Why do people vote KMT? Because they still believe the lie that there is a status quo for Taiwan and the KMT is sworn to protect it.[/quote]

Very good post. It’s like why would any gay man vote for the Republican Party in the US. Well, plenty do because most people are not single issue voters.[/quote]

National identity and independence are different from gay rights. Only 5% of any population are directly affected by the issue of gay rights. National identity and independence affect every citizen and are on a totally different level than fiscal policy, education or the war in Iraq.

You claim Taiwanese care about these issues a lot. But how come that doesn’t reflect in voting patterns? I call BS on you.[/quote]

I’m sorry? Are you seriously saying that “Am I Chinese?” is a more important question to voters than what happens with the education system? Do you really believe that “Am I Chinese?” is a more important question to them than economic growth? Do you really think those don’t affect the entire country and its future?? You need a reality check.

Just about every young person (under 40) I know who votes KMT (and that’s most of them) support independence, say that Taiwan is not a part of China, and would call themselves 中國人 if and only if they were making an East-West comparison (i.e. 歐美人 vs. 中國人). You give off a distinct impression that you rarely leave the house.


#569

Elections prove you wrong, that is all I can say.
Americans wanted independence and hence did not care a bit about the British army.

Taiwanese feel Taiwanese and stick it in your white monkey foreigner face. At the same time they do business as a local in Mainland China.

I don’t think Taiwanese are too stupid to put the cross at the right spot on their ballot, I neither think they are schizophrenic. I believe they are smart enough to fool foreigners and reap the benefits of being Chinese whenever it suits them. In the Star Trek universe they would be Ferengi.


#570

The same way that Obama’s reelection proves that American voters love black people, hate guns, want gay marriage, don’t like Israel, and are totally cool with domestic spying, right?

(I can’t believe I’m admitting this on an Internet forum but) I voted for Bush the second time around, and that was in spite of my absolutely being totally against the Iraq invasion. But I guess my vote proves I hate those damn 'raqis and wanted war, amirite.

(As a side note, that was not the last time I’ve regretted voting an individual into the White House…)


#571

Really? There have been 5 presidential elections. Three went to independence leaning candidates and two to a man who promised he would uphold the status quo and not engage in any talks of unification and who went out of his way to show his love of Taiwan during his campaigning (remember the home stays?).

Five is a tiny number to draw any conclusions from, but even here the stats don’t argue in your favor.

I have found Taiwanese to be very lovely people who have welcomed me overwhelmingly and can recall many instances when they stood by me against other Taiwanese (including my very kind and decent former mother-in-law who wouldn’t take any criticism of me from others simply because I was born outside Taiwan). Some are even kind enough to say I am half Taiwanese after all my years and experiences here, an obvious white lie but something that would never cross the mind of a Mainlander to say.

I hope I never run into the type of people you seem to associate with.


#572

[quote=“Mucha Man”] Some are even kind enough to say I am half Taiwanese after all my years and experiences here, an obvious white lie but something that would never cross the mind of a Mainlander to say.

I hope I never run into the type of people you seem to associate with.[/quote]

You dare to generalize 1,300,000 people as evil brutes but want a special fuzzy, warm and noble status for 23,000,000 people? Wow you really had a lot of kool aid. Unlike you I make no assumptions about anyone you associate with - but you seem to believe anything as long as it makes you feel good.

In terms of the last 5 elections, let’s examine it more closesly:

Lee Teng-hui ran on the KMT ticket. You out of all people should put this into perspective! Thinkof the resources he had to win the election.

CSB won less than half of the popular vote in 2000. 60% of the people voted for one of the two KMT candidates. KMT didn’t lose for a lack of public support, but the DPP won because of a lack of party discipline in the KMT.
Ma Ying-jeou said he neither supports unification, nor independence during his two terms as president. Yet he always insisted on the constitutional heritage and obligations of the ROC. When it comes to legislative elections, the KMT has always been the majority party.


#573

Now you want to discuss elections in context? Be serious. I gave you that chance. Now, I am tired of you moving goalposts. You lost, dude. Your numbers don’t add up. Five elections and not a single president has won with a unificationist platform and of the last two the KMT candidate had to bend over backwards to stress he would not sell out Taiwan’s interests. That’s it. YOU LOST.

And I have no idea what you mean by 1.3 million people. Because in context of what I wrote that should mean these are all people you personally know. Really now? :laughing:


#574

He left out three zeroes.


#575

I know. His usual sloppiness with facts. And hysteria with conclusions. I of course did not condemn all Chinese as, what was it, evil? I merely implied that one difference between Taiwanese and Chinese is their willingness to accept new immigrants into the fabric of society. I suspect this has to do with the immigrant experience of Taiwanese society, something not really shared by the Chinese in general (certainly many local parts of China have this experience but not the society as a whole).

But again, hsinhai just can’t accept facts and history. He’s an ideologue with reactionary views to propagandize to the ignorant.


#576

[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“Dirt”]

The ROC is a free country, people have the right to use whatever terms they wish. I have both waishengren and benshenren in my family tree.
[/quote]

it’s the same false logic people who insists on using the N word recites.[/quote]

Benshengren (as well as waishengren) were oppressed but never slaves. Your association between nigger and benshengren insults the African American (and British and French, etc.) experience and the suffering they had to go through for hundreds of years.


#577

I just can’t see Taiwan future for independent if people keep allowing KMT and DDP ruin Taiwan society and economy. Both parties really fail to tackle down the important issues in recent years. We just can see both parties fight each other for something that many people don’t care about. The consequence is both parties receive low approval rate. It is one of indications that people are moving away from KMT and DDP. And political apathy phenomenon occur among Taiwanese youngsters.


#578

Theoretically, if mainland does reform to fully embrace the three principles of the people, then there’s no reason why reunification shouldn’t be the course of action. After all it is still the stated goal of the country, to reunite with the mainland under the banner of the three principles of the people.


#579

You are right, except that the Three Principles is empty, meaningless rhetoric. China believes it has enacted the 3P already, hence why they continue to call Sun Yat-sen their founding father. This is clearly “Three Principles, Different Interpretations” across the Taiwan Strait.

Just because Taiwan is supposed to unify doesn’t mean it has to. Things have changed in the past 60 years. The issue is no longer just governance, but quality of life, public morality, and that ever-so-messy problem of national identity.

Taiwan will likely end up a part of China in the future, but it won’t be an easy transition.


#580

If the USA judged their Presidents the way Taiwan judges their’s, we’d have to blot out the first 3 Presidents and many more that came afterwards.