Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?


#621

Good god you have no idea what you’re talking about if you compare “Hoklo” to “Angelino.”

I, too, am an Angelino. When I have kids it will not be in LA, hence they will not be Angelinos.

But the children of Fujianese parents who moved to, say, Malaysia, are still called Fujianese (or in Taiwan Hoklo), and the children of Cantonese immigrants to the US are still called Cantonese, not JUST Chinese. There is more at play here than region of origin. It is a matter of culture, language (NOT dialect), and personal identity.

Your criticizing Hoklos as crass and speaking a “prole” dialect would be more akin to the English saying the same about the Scottish. Or (heaven forbid) the Irish.


#622

One of the reasons I have to laugh at dirt’s contentions that I don’t understand the ethnic issue here is that for the first few years I was in Taiwan I was very much as prejudiced against Hoklo proles as hsinhai remains today. I had a wsr wife, and we shared a distaste of people with crude manners (not limited to Hoklo but they are easily pigeonholed). She would tell me stories of her father refusing to let her Taiwanese cousins visit when she was young as he felt (probably rightly) that they had no manners. It reminded me of my own father who tried to protect us from the working class environment where we lived. You know, from people who chewed with their mouths open, and said “I learned that from my teacher.”

So in other words I was primed to absorb the ethic tensions of Taiwan because they pretty neatly matched my expectations of society.

I remember being knocked out of my bigotry by an American friend who was complaining about low class waishengren (mostly old soldiers). She introduced me to the “gentry” class Taiwanese and I began to realize what a load of bigoted beliefs I had been entertaining (and also that in Taiwan one’s prejudices as a foreigner were heavily tied to where you lived and who you associated with). At the same time, my wife, whose mother was Taiwanese, began to acknowledge that part of her heritage and also realize the lies and distortions she had been taught against Hoklo.

Anyway, I am quite ashamed of my earlier prejudices, as I should have seen through them a lot sooner. But the fact remains that ethnic tensions in Taiwan are probably understood by most foreigners a lot better than people like Dirt would believe.


#623

I had some responses. Some serious, a couple less so. But after this page of personal attacks, I guess I touched nerve. I know who I am, I know how I am looked upon, how I fit into Taiwanese society. You guys should think a bit more about that too.


#624

So… we won?


#625

So… we won?[/quote]

What are you fighting for?

Edit: please see above your post.


#626

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Good god you have no idea what you’re talking about if you compare “Hoklo” to “Angelino.”

I, too, am an Angelino. When I have kids it will not be in LA, hence they will not be Angelinos.

But the children of Fujianese parents who moved to, say, Malaysia, are still called Fujianese (or in Taiwan Hoklo), and the children of Cantonese immigrants to the US are still called Cantonese, not JUST Chinese. There is more at play here than region of origin. It is a matter of culture, language (NOT dialect), and personal identity.

Your criticizing Hoklos as crass and speaking a “prole” dialect would be more akin to the English saying the same about the Scottish. Or (heaven forbid) the Irish.[/quote]

The self hate is very strange. Don’t hate your ancestors, they made you what you are and they probably had it tougher.


#627

[quote=“headhonchoII”][quote=“Hokwongwei”]Good god you have no idea what you’re talking about if you compare “Hoklo” to “Angelino.”

I, too, am an Angelino. When I have kids it will not be in LA, hence they will not be Angelinos.

But the children of Fujianese parents who moved to, say, Malaysia, are still called Fujianese (or in Taiwan Hoklo), and the children of Cantonese immigrants to the US are still called Cantonese, not JUST Chinese. There is more at play here than region of origin. It is a matter of culture, language (NOT dialect), and personal identity.

Your criticizing Hoklos as crass and speaking a “prole” dialect would be more akin to the English saying the same about the Scottish. Or (heaven forbid) the Irish.[/quote]

The self hate is very strange. Don’t hate your ancestors, they made you what you are and they probably had it tougher.[/quote]

When a white Democrat insults a white Republican, is the first question you ask: “Why do you hate yourself?”


#628

Don’t hate on your ancestors, first taboo of ethnic Chinese.


#629

What are the beliefs of my ancestors?

Edit: what are the beliefs of yours?


#630

My belief is don’t hate on my parents and grandparents and great grandparents, I wouldn’t be around without them and they probably had it harder than me. Nothing complicated about that. You should think about saying the things you say in front of your parents and grandparents or great grandparents and justifying them. Don’t diss your family online.


#631

What are the beliefs of my ancestors?


#632

Don’t care, you are the one dissing your own heritage.


#633

That’s your right. And, you will never know what my believes.


#634

Ehh, it takes some of the fun out of being right when people go on personal attacks against the guy who’s wrong. I for one am a little disappointed.


#635

Please forgive my pedantry, but, how does an Angeleno misspell Angeleno?


#636

Eh, I never use the word. I prefer to just saw “I’m from LA.” I don’t really identify with the city though, so maybe that’s why I never say “Angeleno.” (Also my Spanish really, really sucks.)


#637

Taiwan belongs to (the Republic of) China. At present, I think everyone’s greatest fear is our beautiful island being usurped to SAR status.


#638

My post here got lost in the sever crash.

I was raised in the US and never lived in Taiwan, but May parents sand their chums were very interested in politics and are Green to the core. So, I grew up with a general pro independence bias in my views. As I’ve grown older, I find myself increasingly sympathetic to a pro unification viewpoint for several reasons. First, after twenty some odd years of democracy, the pan Blue-pro unification views has triumphed consistently in municipal, legislative and executive elections. Secondly, after finally spending some time in China, I’ve come to believe that the quality and way of life there is not so very different from Taiwan.

I know I’m in a very tiny minority, but I’d prefer unification with the PRC as a Taiwan SAR, rather than some federated/commonwealth model as the ROC. As a SAR, Taiwan would clearly be subordinate to the PRC, but that seems better to me than where Taiwan is subordinate to the ROC which would itself subordinate to the PRC. With its history of 228, martial law, White Terror, suppression of local culture, discrimination against BSR and non-elite WSR, and its atrocious rule on the mainland, I’d be just as happy to see the ROC go rather than having Taiwan continue to carry its yoke.


#639

Would you prefer a PRC yoke? :ponder:


#640

There are many reasons for this, but I believe “it’s what the people want” is not one of them.

You are entitled to your opinion, and it’s great that you’re able to lay it out in a civil, non-argumentative way. Let me explain to you my reservations about Taiwan becoming an SAR.

Maybe it’s my upbringing in a very conservative American household, but I believe democracy and human rights are in fact all they’re cracked up to be.

When Chinese dissidents stop disappearing for exercising their constitutional right to free speech; when foreign journalists are not labeled persona non grata for telling the truth; when the state stops literally playing the part of god by putting its hands all over church affairs; when average people don’t have their land or other property expropriated with little to no explanation and little to no compensation; when the government is no longer actively preventing its people from learning about what’s happening in the rest of the world; when education is not primarily a tool for either economic growth or political propaganda; when disputes other countries over uninhabited patches of sea do not spark government-condoned riots against foreign companies; when the media keeps officials in check rather than empowers them; when citizens are allowed to leave their country at will; when leaders are answerable to their people; when the justice system is just; when the government is legitimized by more than just economic growth which it may not be able to keep going forever…

Then I would find unification to be a very agreeable choice. I may even, at that point, be in favor of it. But that’s a far cry from the way things really are in China.

These are all true. But couldn’t this same exact argument be put toward the founding of a Republic of Taiwan?

Alternatively, you could say: