Hello all! Well this is my first post here but I have been lurking for awhile and read quite a lot of threads as well as searched the forums regarding this topic but have not found a whole lot of info.
So… My question is what are the differences between Taiwan and China in regards to studying Chinese (I really want to crack down and attain some level of fluency), culture, nightlife, socializing and the accessabilty of meeting new friends (both male and female)?
I have been to Beijing and Shanghai (three weeks in the former, three days in the later) and thoroughly enjoyed both. Beijing seemed to be quite rich in culture and I was able to make a couple of pretty good friends. The nightlife was pretty cool and the general atmosphere seemed very energetic. I was also very surprised at the lack of foreigners.
anyway I am planning to study abroad next year and am up in the air as to weather to go to China (most likely beijing) or Taiwan. I have heard it said that Taiwan is much more westernized and not really “Chinese” (whatever the hell that means), also that being a foreigner over in Taiwan is much more of a big deal then in China and it is easier to make freinds(which has never been much of a problem for me). Also that there are a lot more foriegners and female attention.
So any feedback would be greatly appreciated or if you want to just link me to a thread I missed that answers all of the above quiestions and then curse me out thats cool to. Thanks!
I’m certainly not the expert here, but for starters with the language you’re looking at Traditional characters with zhuyin pronunciation symbols in Taiwan, whereas on the mainland you’ll have simplified characters and pinyin (romanized) pronunciation. Beyond that there’s differences in accent between Taiwan and mainland, and between various parts of the mainland (South vs North, etc.). I guess if language is a factor, it’s a matter of easier, more practical (supposedly pinyin is for westerners) vs more traditional, historical, artistic, etc.
Beyond that I’m probably not that much help, as I don’t live here, I just visit. Taiwan is certainly very manageable by foreigners. I’ve even seen foreigners living in medium and small towns here.
I can’t really compare Taipei to Shanghai or Beijing, but from what I understand the foreign population of both Shanghai and Beijing is probably larger than it may have appeared, you just have to find the right part of town. Check the greater forumosa thread and I think there is info regarding expat forums in those cities.
I would say definitely go to China. Your Chinese will make faster progress, you’ll make more local friends, and you’ll make better contacts if you ever want to work out there.
I have no idea what you’re on about with Beijing and Shanghai lacking laowai, though. Those two cities are infested with them. IMO, a year abroad would be best spent in a second tier city like Nanjing or Xiamen, which have much lower expenses, better living conditions, and still plenty of nightlife options.
In the past I would have chosen Taiwan, cause of the political situation on the mainland. But now, as a student I probably would feel like I am missing out on something here, considering what’s going on over there these days.
Not sure about making “local friends”. Maybe it’s possible…
The contacts in China that will get you a job are with foreigners. If you were to study in Shanghai, join some chambers of commerce, or at least attend events, you could certainly build up a useful portfolio of contacts for future job hunting.
However, in China for a foreigner it is your other skills and experience, not your Chinese language skills which will get you a job. Unless your Chinese is postgraduate level, that is. There are thousands of foreigners here with basic Chinese but those using it at work need to be able to read legal, financial, and government documents.
If I had my time over again, I wouldn’t bother too much with the Chinese and study something a bit more vocational. (Well actually I did, but I never followed up on it.)
I disagree, and wonder why you think in mainland China you’ll make more local friends.
Taiwanese people, from my long experience, are the one type of “Chinese” (made up of those in PRC, HK, Singapore, and Taiwan) who become friends with you (I’m making generalizations here) for who you are and not how they can use you like in mainland China, or for how much they care about your job position and salary and how many credit cards you have like in HK.
The best way to improve your Chinese no matter where you go is to have LOCAL ROOMMATES. I did so for the first 2 and 1/2 years and it was a great free language exchange.
Do not go down the path (like some of my ABC and foreign friends who were learning Chinese along with me at the same beginning level) and just have foreign roommates and foreign friends. If you notice, those Chinese (whether PRC, Taiwan, or HK) who hang out in Chinese groups when they study in the UK or U.S. or Australia (generally for 2 years), almost 99% of the time go back to their home country and their English hasn’t improved a lick.
Thanks for all the replies. In regards to making friends it seems some people think Taiwan is easier to make friends in and others the mainland. I made some friends while I was in beijing who I still communicate with now through email. But it seems like it might be harder to make the type of friends you can kick back have beer with and just talk about anything from girls to concerns about your future in China. I’ve heard it siad that these type of friends are easier to be made in Taiwan cause people are a bit more laid back. Any thoughts?
As to not seeing many Laowai, well it was probably due to the preconcieved notion I had before going there that they were gonna be everywhere(which i don’t think was the case and have heard is more synonoms with Taiwan and esp. Thailand).
Definetly didn’t get stared at that much in Beijing so that is kind of a tip off that they must be somewhat used to seeing foreigners.
I disagree, and wonder why you think in mainland China you’ll make more local friends.
Taiwanese people, from my long experience, are the one type of “Chinese” (made up of those in PRC, HK, Singapore, and Taiwan) who become friends with you (I’m making generalizations here) for who you are and not how they can use you like in mainland China, or for how much they care about your job position and salary and how many credit cards you have like in HK.
The best way to improve your Chinese no matter where you go is to have LOCAL ROOMMATES. I did so for the first 2 and 1/2 years and it was a great free language exchange.
Do not go down the path (like some of my ABC and foreign friends who were learning Chinese along with me at the same beginning level) and just have foreign roommates and foreign friends. If you notice, those Chinese (whether PRC, Taiwan, or HK) who hang out in Chinese groups when they study in the UK or U.S. or Australia (generally for 2 years), almost 99% of the time go back to their home country and their English hasn’t improved a lick.
Good luck wherever your feet land.[/quote]
Guanxi is alive and very prominent here in Taiwan. Thank your gods that you haven’t become friends with a gangster. Guanxi takes on a whole new meaning and level in Tauwan.
Everyone is still looking for how they can use you. Whether you are on the mainland or in Taiwan you will be used. The puppet for the night, the clown face for the classroom, the show off my foreign friend, etc…
The best way to improve your Chinese is to get a Taiwanese or Chinese girlfriend. Good luck if you go to the mainland. The girls are shy and cagey.
I disagree, and wonder why you think in mainland China you’ll make more local friends.
Taiwanese people, from my long experience, are the one type of “Chinese” (made up of those in PRC, HK, Singapore, and Taiwan) who become friends with you (I’m making generalizations here) for who you are and not how they can use you like in mainland China, or for how much they care about your job position and salary and how many credit cards you have like in HK.
The best way to improve your Chinese no matter where you go is to have LOCAL ROOMMATES. I did so for the first 2 and 1/2 years and it was a great free language exchange.
Do not go down the path (like some of my ABC and foreign friends who were learning Chinese along with me at the same beginning level) and just have foreign roommates and foreign friends. If you notice, those Chinese (whether PRC, Taiwan, or HK) who hang out in Chinese groups when they study in the UK or U.S. or Australia (generally for 2 years), almost 99% of the time go back to their home country and their English hasn’t improved a lick.
Good luck wherever your feet land.[/quote]
Guanxi is alive and very prominent here in Taiwan. Thank your gods that you haven’t become friends with a gangster. Guanxi takes on a whole new meaning and level in Tauwan.
Everyone is still looking for how they can use you. Whether you are on the mainland or in Taiwan you will be used. The puppet for the night, the clown face for the classroom, the show off my foreign friend, etc…
The best way to improve your Chinese is to get a Taiwanese or Chinese girlfriend. Good luck if you go to the mainland. The girls are shy and cagey.[/quote]
I have lived in Taiwan for over a decade, and have met all kinds of Taiwanese. I have yet to be “used” by them (maybe it’s luck, but more likely just know when someone will “use” me and so I step away). Only time I’ve been used was by a college buddy who was also in Taipei and I didn’t see it coming (never think close friends will do that).
Overall, I can say with conviction that a street-smart person would catch all those situations (no matter what country you are in) of being a “puppet for the night”, etc.
I once had a memorable experience of sitting down at a table in a “foreign-type” bar near Shih-Ta with college-age triad wannabes at the same table. Was with a foreign friend and those college-age triads were very polite to us. I think it was because we knew how to handle ourselves: ask politely if the seats are free, chat a bit in chinese about the weather, etc., and act good-naturedly. The “gang” suddenly left quickly after the big boss called the young leacer and the leader was nice enough to leave their pile of unopened cold beers with us. I thought that was quite nice of them.
It is all how you handle yourself, and anyone in Taiwan after 1 year (with a bit of Chinese language skill) should be able to know how to act in all kinds of situations. Granted, there are certain bars where foreigners are “targeted” by locals, but why go there if you know this. The first time a small Taiwanese guy came up to me in a bar when I had been here just a year, he said “this seat is mine, I believe.” Not forcefully, just in a casual tone. I said no problem, and walked away. There are foreigners who would say “fuq you, I was here first” and then wonder why 10 guys drag him outside and use him for punching practice. Again, it’s all about street-smarts. You can’t take your country’s attitude and put it to use in Taiwan.
I do agree. Get a local girlfriend and your Chinese will improve dramatically, no matter which country.
I disagree, and wonder why you think in mainland China you’ll make more local friends. [/quote]
I think that because of my own personal experience. I made dozens of close local friends when I spent a year in Beijing and a year in Nanjing. Of the four years I’ve spent in Taiwan, I’ve made exactly zero close local friends.
I thought finding a girlfriend on the mainland was just as difficult/easy as it is here in Taiwan. If anything, I’ve had less luck here, going for several years here without so much as a date.
Another major factor to consider is money, assuming the OP is a college student. When I was in Nanjing 4-5 years ago, I could teach six hours on a long Sunday afternoon and that took care of ALL my living expenses. Good luck trying to live off 6 teaching hours/week in any Taiwanese city.
Lord Lucan is exactly right about not on focusing on Chinese if you want to make a career in China. I wish someone had told me when I was 22 that I should focus entirely on doing that economics Ph.D.
I disagree, and wonder why you think in mainland China you’ll make more local friends. [/quote]
I think that because of my own personal experience. I made dozens of close local friends when I spent a year in Beijing and a year in Nanjing. Of the four years I’ve spent in Taiwan, I’ve made exactly zero close local friends.
I thought finding a girlfriend on the mainland was just as difficult/easy as it is here in Taiwan. If anything, I’ve had less luck here, going for several years here without so much as a date.
Another major factor to consider is money, assuming the OP is a college student. When I was in Nanjing 4-5 years ago, I could teach six hours on a long Sunday afternoon and that took care of ALL my living expenses. Good luck trying to live off 6 teaching hours/week in any Taiwanese city.
Lord Lucan is exactly right about not on focusing on Chinese if you want to make a career in China. I wish someone had told me when I was 22 that I should focus entirely on doing that economics Ph.D.[/quote][/quote]
I studied Chinese for 2 and 1/2 years. It takes about 1 and 1/2 years to get to newspaper level. I would say that after 2 years of Chinese reading ability that you will be a very very marketable person whether in mainland China or Taiwan. I know that if I am fired right now, that I do not have to worry about finding a job due to my ability to read Chinese. Speaking is just halfway. Being able to read ensures employment for a very long time.
If you want to go to a place where you can have half a chance of truly integrating, go to Taiwan.[/quote]
What makes you say that? Are the people just more accepting in general, or is it because the Taiwanese culture isn’t as different as western culuture then ithe mainland?
I am a student btw. and really want to get the most out of my year abroad in regards to studying whether that means Taiwain or China I don’t know. I’ve heard great things about Taiwan NORML but don’t know much about the schools in Beijing. If I went to Beijing it would be the foriegn students Uni, any one heard of this school?
I’m hoping that if I attain a high proficiency in Chinese it will help me get a job. But by the previous posts suggest that in order to get a job at a good company (such as an import/export comp or perhaps in a marketing dep) I’m gonna need more then an undergrad in Chinese, or a hell of a lot of guanxi. I just figured that Chinese would be the hard part, in the sense that if one has good Chinese language skill, the company can easily teach you the business aspect of it.
If you want to go to a place where you can have half a chance of truly integrating, go to Taiwan.[/quote]
What makes you say that? Are the people just more accepting in general, or is it because the Taiwanese culture isn’t as different as western culuture then ithe mainland?
I am a student btw. and really want to get the most out of my year abroad in regards to studying whether that means Taiwain or China I don’t know. I’ve heard great things about Taiwan NORML but don’t know much about the schools in Beijing. If I went to Beijing it would be the foreign students Uni, any one heard of this school?
I’m hoping that if I attain a high proficiency in Chinese it will help me get a job. But by the previous posts suggest that in order to get a job at a good company (such as an import/export comp or perhaps in a marketing dep) I’m gonna need more then an undergrad in Chinese, or a hell of a lot of guanxi. I just figured that Chinese would be the hard part, in the sense that if one has good Chinese language skill, the company can easily teach you the business aspect of it.[/quote]
My experience has been that a) They tend to have more experience interacting with foreigners and are more tolerant of Mandarin learners b) Once you’ve learned Mandarin, there are more people willing to take you as you are, as opposed to being the ‘foreigner’. YMMV
High level of proficiency is important both written and spoken. However, language and cultural skill are just tools to do a job - you need some other applicable skill. You can have all the language and cultural skills in the world, but unless you also have the hard skills to do the job, you will have trouble getting and keeping one.
It’s something I hear all the time - “wow, China is really coming up, if you can speak Chinese you’re made!” So I ask these people where all of the magic job opportunities are and I’ve never yet had a reply.
I see Chinese as something you need if you are going to live in a Chinese-speaking country. It is not optional. But neither is it the ticket to untold riches that some would lead you to believe. China is particularly competitive because that’s where the hot shot Mandarin students head to - my Chinese is considered pretty good in Taiwan but they would probably think it’s quite poor out in China. But all that is moot for 99% of people - I’ve been approached several times on the street to teach English but never even seen a job posting for foreigners with Chinese ability.
Generally the happiest furriners I know in Taiwan are the ones with fluent Chinese/Taiwanese and the most successful are the ones with some skill and entrepeneurial drive.
“I know that if I am fired right now, that I do not have to worry about finding a job due to my ability to read Chinese” Ctaitung
May ask what kind of work you do?
Well it seems that everyone’s opinion is…well an opinion. I knew this would be the case because what I am asking is highly subjective, but oh how I wish someone could just say “go to ‘blank’ people are nicer, it’s easier to make friends and learn Chinese. Thier has been scientific studies done and it’s a proven fact.” However this is clearly not the case and ultimently I will have to make the decision.
I think I am leaning towards China because I think it’s really interesting seeing the radical changes that are happening in regards to thier economic development and in some ways I think thier culure as well. Plus cost of living is much cheaper. Hopefully I can meet friends that are open minded and don’t just look at me as “the foreigner” as some have suggested.
I realize that Chinese fluency is not going to gaurantee me a job after college, but realistically what Liberal Arts major would? I think that Chinese will be a skill that, if I market myself right and meet the right people, will open some doors for me in the workplace. Also most jobs train you at the work place and hardly any undergrad degree gives you the exact skills you will need for a certain job. It just gives you a general knowledge base and critical thinking skills from which to build on. I will probably end up having to go to grad school anyway in order to specialize in a certain field. A bachelors degree doesn’t seem to hold much weight in the work place anymore.
For the fluent chinese speakers out there, what are some jobs you have had?
Good point :bravo: I think once you get your bachelor’s degree and don’t have a specific career path in mind like medicine it doesn’t matter a rat’s bum what you actually studied.
Everyone I know in Taiwan whose career depends heavily on their Chinese ability is self employed. And in that subset the people who have chosen freelance translation seem to be having the hardest time. So it seems that Chinese isn’t worth a whole lot on its own but becomes useful alongside other skills in the right environment.
My being fluent in written and spoken Mandarin means only that there is one less barrier for them to place me in a Mandarin speaking country. That is all.
That said, I graduated with a liberal arts degree and Mandarin did help me get my first job.
but never even seen a job posting for foreigners with Chinese ability.