Taiwan vs. Japan

Original Title: Sayonara Japan, Ni Hao Taiwan

In the past few days I have skimmed and scanned the 77 pages in this forum and have found the usual mixture of Love/Hate Taiwan/Taiwanese that we all find in every forum. You don’t need to know Japan to answer my extremely long-winded question. I just want to know how these situations sound from the perspective of someone living in Taiwan.

I joined Forumosa in order to ask a few questions from residents of Taiwan. I have been in Japan half my life ( now aged 44 ) and have recently been contemplating leaving. I used to live in Tokyo but got tired of the constant desire to tear down dated but, atmospheric buildings and neighbourhoods and replace them with new, new, new plastic and glass and no feeling. I came to Osaka 2 years ago and it seems as though my westward journey is not yet finished.

Here’s a glimpse of Japan in the last two months.

Case 1. 23/24 year old woman sits on train and puts a small shopping bag next to her, but far enough away to take up a whole seat. As train fills up nearing the city, several people approach the seat, see the bag, look at her and are met with an icy stare. All move on but keep eying the seat. I stood up to get off and in rude Japanese ask if her bag was tired. If looks could kill, I wouldn’t be here now. One woman rushes to sit in newly freed-up seat.

Case 2. Forty-something year old businessman student gets call from 10 year old daughter during lesson. She says that her mother fell in bathroom and is bleeding from near her eye. She is about to accompany her mother in a taxi to hospital and asks if Dad could come home to await 12 year old son’s return from soccer practice. He declines and decides to continue lesson with me. 10 minutes elapse and he gets call from distraught wife ordering him home. He goes.

Case 3. Am waiting to pay at 7/11. Young kid in front buys something that requires a spoon. Trainee high school girl asks him “spoon?” and he replies
“asdhdshfbfggzxbeur”. She nods understandingly, thinks again, looks worried and again says “spoon” in a coy voice. He replies in similar style at which point I speak up and say “put a spoon in the bag for him” and hurry up. They both look shocked to hear a full sentence with verbs.

Case 4. A boy jams the doors of commuter express train with some plastic box. Guard has to attempt several times without understanding what is wrong. Boy stops, doors close, we move. 10 minutes later, he tries again. Box gets stuck but doors successfully close. Train picks up speed, boy pulls box free and doors open slightly and close again. Nobody around him says anything. Nothing, They just look. After his third stunt which causes train to be delayed and guard apologising for being unable to close the doors successfully, I finally make my way over to boy and tell him I am calling the police. When he starts to panic I told him we have to get off and talk to station staff. We do and they take him away.

Crap like this has me ready leave Japan. Since I came here this country has been filled to the brim with machines for this and that. The purpose is to remove the need for face to face conversation. People here are more and more reluctant to ask for help, offer help or even look concerned with absolutely anything unexpected or not concerning them directly. They are locked into mailing and texting on phones while walking, cycling and driving. They avoid eye contact and almost never smile. It is getting me down.

Nothing particularly strange in what you wrote. Get ready for more of the same. :sunglasses:

But welcome to Forumosa!

:laughing: Yeah, you’re gonna LOOOOOVE Taiwan.

You’ll still encounter that crap in Taiwan. They are not, however as anal as the Japanese. You will get the occasion smile here.

After 2 years in Tokyo I was ready to leave Japan & never go back again, despite years invested in studying Japan from high school on. I got tired of the insincere and/or bigoted comments & the impersonal “big city” existence. Osaka was better in terms of the city character, people’s attitudes, etc, but still fairly backwards at times.

After just a few short months in Taiwan I’d say that despite many obvious similarities the people here seem much friendlier, more likely to be direct (especially compared to Japan), and more likely to tell each other off in the situations you described :slight_smile:

Everything I’ve heard or read about the education system seems pretty much cut/pasted from Japan, so that might not be much different if you’re in the Ei-kaiwa biz…

Taipei so far seems like a smaller, slightly dirtier cousin to Osaka in a lot of places. Pollution and drivers are worse than Japan, but its much easier to navigate. Frankly, I don’t like the food as much (sacrilege to say so). Shi-Da night market guy makes good takoyaki though! They’re great w/wasabi …

I think there might be some differences.

[quote=“EurasiaEndtoEnd”]

Case 1. 23/24 year old woman sits on train and puts a small shopping bag next to her, but far enough away to take up a whole seat. As train fills up nearing the city, several people approach the seat, see the bag, look at her and are met with an icy stare. All move on but keep eying the seat. I stood up to get off and in rude Japanese ask if her bag was tired. If looks could kill, I wouldn’t be here now. One woman rushes to sit in newly freed-up seat.[/quote]

Taiwan version: Someone, probably me, starts sitting in seat, and bag is removed before it can be crushed. Icy stares are not seen because you are now staring in a parallel direction. Nothing is ever said.

Businessman is on TVBS the next day, humiliated in front of entire nation. “Distraught” might serve to characterize his feelings, but “ape-shit” might come closer to those of wife.

[quote]
Case 3. Am waiting to pay at 7/11. Young kid in front buys something that requires a spoon. Trainee high school girl asks him “spoon?” and he replies
“asdhdshfbfggzxbeur”. She nods understandingly, thinks again, looks worried and again says “spoon” in a coy voice. He replies in similar style at which point I speak up and say “put a spoon in the bag for him” and hurry up. They both look shocked to hear a full sentence with verbs. [/quote]

Girl understands implicitly and shoves spoon in while screaming “huaiying guaning” and nothing else, already looking at your stuff. God forbid you have to ask her a question though!

[quote]
Case 4. A boy jams the doors of commuter express train with some plastic box. Guard has to attempt several times without understanding what is wrong. Boy stops, doors close, we move. 10 minutes later, he tries again. Box gets stuck but doors successfully close. Train picks up speed, boy pulls box free and doors open slightly and close again. Nobody around him says anything. Nothing, They just look. After his third stunt which causes train to be delayed and guard apologising for being unable to close the doors successfully, I finally make my way over to boy and tell him I am calling the police. When he starts to panic I told him we have to get off and talk to station staff. We do and they take him away. [/quote]

I never take the train can’t say :slight_smile: On the subway, a recorded message will quickly inform him of the error of his ways. Everyone will subsequently be staring at him and his mother as if he was planning to shoot the pope.

Never lived in Tokyo because I knew it would be like what you just described. But I did time in Wakayama and Osaka and loved that neck of the woods. Watered down version of Tokyo, a little bit more friendlier but still Japan.

[quote=“EurasiaEndtoEnd”]
Here’s a glimpse of Japan in the last two months.

Case 1. 23/24 year old woman sits on train and puts a small shopping bag next to her, but far enough away to take up a whole seat. As train fills up nearing the city, several people approach the seat, see the bag, look at her and are met with an icy stare. All move on but keep eying the seat. I stood up to get off and in rude Japanese ask if her bag was tired. If looks could kill, I wouldn’t be here now. One woman rushes to sit in newly freed-up seat.[/quote] Shit that’s happening in Chicago, where I’m at. Only difference is it’s someone with a child, a stroller, a grocery cart or just their body weight and a bag taking up the seat. I see it every morning on the “L” (the train).

[quote]Case 2. Forty-something year old businessman student gets call from 10 year old daughter during lesson. She says that her mother fell in bathroom and is bleeding from near her eye. She is about to accompany her mother in a taxi to hospital and asks if Dad could come home to await 12 year old son’s return from soccer practice. He declines and decides to continue lesson with me. 10 minutes elapse and he gets call from distraught wife ordering him home. He goes.[/quote]Ah, what the Taiwanese call “meibangfa” can’t help you or as they say in the States, You’re ass out of luck. I never really encountered any disregard for family during my time in Taiwan, unless it was coming from some really dysfunctional person, and you find those kinds everywhere.

[quote]
Case 3. Am waiting to pay at 7/11. Young kid in front buys something that requires a spoon. Trainee high school girl asks him “spoon?” and he replies
“asdhdshfbfggzxbeur”. She nods understandingly, thinks again, looks worried and again says “spoon” in a coy voice. He replies in similar style at which point I speak up and say “put a spoon in the bag for him” and hurry up. They both look shocked to hear a full sentence with verbs. [/quote]Yea, once you start learning Chinese, you’ll get the same look. But at Taiwanese 7/11s you’re more inclined to be cut in front of by the stupid little kid.

[quote]Case 4. A boy jams the doors of commuter express train with some plastic box. Guard has to attempt several times without understanding what is wrong. Boy stops, doors close, we move. 10 minutes later, he tries again. Box gets stuck but doors successfully close. Train picks up speed, boy pulls box free and doors open slightly and close again. Nobody around him says anything. Nothing, They just look. After his third stunt which causes train to be delayed and guard apologising for being unable to close the doors successfully, I finally make my way over to boy and tell him I am calling the police. When he starts to panic I told him we have to get off and talk to station staff. We do and they take him away. [/quote]Taiwan has their own brand of stupidity. But it’s funny and :loco: at the same time. So much so, you don’t know if you should rant or just sit back and laugh because you know you need a laugh for the day.

[quote]
Crap like this has me ready leave Japan. Since I came here this country has been filled to the brim with machines for this and that. The purpose is to remove the need for face to face conversation.[/quote]Same in the States. None of the 20 somethings kids in my Grad class know how to have a intellectual conversation. None of them care about current events or politics (and this is a public affairs program) all they want to do during grad classes is talk on their Facebook and send texts.

[quote]People here are more and more reluctant to ask for help, offer help or even look concerned with absolutely anything unexpected or not concerning them directly. They are locked into mailing and texting on phones while walking, cycling and driving. They avoid eye contact and almost never smile. It is getting me down.[/quote]Welcome to the world.

Even tho a few others here said welcome to the same, which to some extent they are right, you will have at least one good conversation during the day. Even on the worst of the worst days in Taiwan, I got eye contact (albeit staring) and some smiles. The Taiwanese are friendly, and sometimes to a point of irritating but it’s more relaxed society than Japan and you have to learn how to go with the flow. Plus as a male you’re going to do fine, as you already know it’s a man’s world in Asia.

Go to Taiwan. At least for a visit. Sounds like you just need to get out of Japan for a moment.

Japan is much better inaka de, in the boonies. I’ve worked in Tokyo (Oomori), the only hakujin in a large company. The OLs were a constant source of entertainment. The guys were interesting … away form work. At work, everyone had ZERO personality, thereby fitting in.

In the boonies, velo tours minshuku to minshuku, I had great experiences. Hitchhiking, again, great experiences. Hitchhiking takes patience, but many rides were with two or more female college students, and several with a mom and infant. There is compassion in Japan … in the boonies, again. Curiosity gets stronger the farther from the Sprawl you go.

Comparison with Taiwan: Like Japan, there are two cultural landscapes in Taiwan, the Sprawl and the mountains.

Methinks that Taiwan will be the full contact version of that described above.

Get ready to rumble

I agree. Wait till a little blue truck takes out a mate! That’s gonna make that door stopping kiddie look like an angel.

HG

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I agree. Wait till a little blue truck takes out a mate! That’s gonna make that door stopping kiddie look like an angel.

HG[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t get the reference to the blue truck. Police ? What annoyed me in the examples I mentioned in my first post was the complete lack of common sense on the part of people involved. Bag on seat … so ask for it to be moved. / Wife bleeding … go home. / Kid jamming doors … tell him to stop. Not rocket science, just a bit of humanity. Most posters ( not all ! ) are cheering me up that things won’t be quite that dead or deadening in Taiwan. That’s all I ask. Cheers

Japan:Taiwan::scooter:MotoGP

at least in terms of traffic manners.

“little blue truck” means an overloaded gravel truck piloted by a binlang addict. One of the grossest scenes in the 'wan is your average county bus driver who unloads a garden hose size stream of binlang effluvia onto the bus lot, then boards the bus, sits in the driver’s seat, and starts another episode of “who’s the biggest, baddest moving mass”.

[quote=“EurasiaEndtoEnd”][quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I agree. Wait till a little blue truck takes out a mate! That’s gonna make that door stopping kiddie look like an angel.

HG[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t get the reference to the blue truck. Police ? What annoyed me in the examples I mentioned in my first post was the complete lack of common sense on the part of people involved. Bag on seat … so ask for it to be moved. / Wife bleeding … go home. / Kid jamming doors … tell him to stop. Not rocket science, just a bit of humanity. Most posters ( not all ! ) are cheering me up that things won’t be quite that dead or deadening in Taiwan. That’s all I ask. Cheers[/quote]

Taiwan will not be dead or deadening. That is for sure. Where is Japan your sensibilities were offended, in Taiwan they, (on occasion), will be assaulted. My impression of Japan on the few times I visited, was a colder, more reserved and more anal-retentive version of Taiwan. Everything was, “just so”. In Taiwan; however, everything is just so Sui Bian, (whatever).

The upside is that you’ll have real friends, eat real food and have a real life. Taiwan is generally full-on, all-taste, with no-filler and certainly no substitute.

Taiwan will not be dead or deadening. That is for sure. Where is Japan your sensibilities were offended, in Taiwan they, (on occasion), will be assaulted. My impression of Japan on the few times I visited, was a colder, more reserved and more anal-retentive version of Taiwan. Everything was, “just so”. In Taiwan; however, everything is just so Sui Bian, (whatever).

The upside is that you’ll have real friends, eat real food and have a real life. Taiwan is generally full-on, all-taste, with no-filler and certainly no substitute.[/quote]

LOL. I started this thread hoping someone would write what you have just told me ! I have one or two Taiwanese friends in Japan and they seem like real people to me. I have a friend in Taipei and when we talk I feel like I am connecting to a real person instead of someone who is just hedging.
My father passed away this June and various Japanese people said things like “that’s too bad” or “that’s life”. Their embarrassment as to what to say to someone experiencing one of life’s big changes left me feeling cold.
My Taiwanese friend responded in a common sense, natural way and said “I am sorry to hear that, how is your mother?”. At that moment I lost the desire to stay in Japan and more or less decided to move to Taiwan for a while to take a break from here.
I am in the mood to be assaulted for a while. Enough with being offended.
Thanks for your reply.

Taiwan will not be dead or deadening. That is for sure. Where is Japan your sensibilities were offended, in Taiwan they, (on occasion), will be assaulted. My impression of Japan on the few times I visited, was a colder, more reserved and more anal-retentive version of Taiwan. Everything was, “just so”. In Taiwan; however, everything is just so Sui Bian, (whatever).

The upside is that you’ll have real friends, eat real food and have a real life. Taiwan is generally full-on, all-taste, with no-filler and certainly no substitute.[/quote]

The upside is that you’ll have real friends, eat real food and have a real life. Taiwan is generally full-on, all-taste, with no-filler and certainly no substitute.[/quote]

LOL. I started this thread hoping someone would write what you have just told me ! I have one or two Taiwanese friends in Japan and they seem like real people to me. I have a friend in Taipei and when we talk I feel like I am connecting to a real person instead of someone who is just hedging.
My father passed away this June and various Japanese people said things like “that’s too bad” or “that’s life”. Their embarrassment as to what to say to someone experiencing one of life’s big changes left me feeling cold.
My Taiwanese friend responded in a common sense, natural way and said “I am sorry to hear that, how is your mother?”. At that moment I lost the desire to stay in Japan and more or less decided to move to Taiwan for a while to take a break from here.
I am in the mood to be assaulted for a while. Enough with being offended.
Thanks for your reply.

[quote=“EurasiaEndtoEnd”][quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I agree. Wait till a little blue truck takes out a mate! That’s gonna make that door stopping kiddie look like an angel.

HG[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t get the reference to the blue truck. Police ? What annoyed me in the examples I mentioned in my first post was the complete lack of common sense on the part of people involved. Bag on seat … so ask for it to be moved. / Wife bleeding … go home. / Kid jamming doors … tell him to stop. Not rocket science, just a bit of humanity. Most posters ( not all ! ) are cheering me up that things won’t be quite that dead or deadening in Taiwan. That’s all I ask. Cheers[/quote]

This common sense is lacking everywhere. And having spent so much time in Japan, I’m very surprised at your reaction to it. Sorry about the loss of your father, perhaps this is what’s under all the stress of living abroad?

Sorry bout your loss, its tough to lose ones dad. I lost mine a few years ago. And I still miss him of course.

YOu will do just fine in Taiwan. Just be sure to give yourself a chance to settle in. Its a jolt to the system. A throw into the deep end. You dont get a soft entry into Taiwan.

People tend to basically parachute in and land on their butts and have to take off running.

I spend a lot of time in Japan for business and love the place but I could never live there. Taiwan is the Japan That Don’t Give a Shit. Imagine what Japan would be like if you could discuss serious business in blue flip-flops. I for one am prepared to accept the mess in return for the freedom. God bless this country, Naruwan!

:laughing: I have no basis for comparison, but if you can take a little chaos, Taiwan’s amazing. Come and try it out. If it isn’t for you, you can always go back.

Thanks to everyone for the positivity and the welcomes. I am going to study Chinese for a month in spring and hopefully suss out the job market. All going well, I’ll move there in 2009.