The Bodhi Way (三乘菩提)


#1041

The goal is for the teacher to be the student, because the student has actually managed to gain all their realizations / good qualities.

Similarly, that Nagarjuna’s teachers and students studied tantra more than standard mahayana should indicate something.

"Buddhism"s way of explaining things is the poorest way, s/he simply quotes sutra. This is like a Christian on the street quoting the bible. No scholar or good teacher does this, since it’s completely useless. What a scholar or good teacher does is quote authoritative commentaries which leave no room for interpretation and very explicitly explain the meaning of things.[/quote]

Triceratops, I strongly recommend you should be very careful every word what you are saying and respect others while I spent some time to scroll back to look into most of your response.
Buddha Shakyamuni’s teaching always remind us who Buddhists that should learn from bright-eyed advisors. And who are our advisors? Not distinguish by their appearance of monks’ wearing, or position, or if they are famous…, but by their teaching if based on the true meaning of Buddhist sutras which is Tathagata-garbha (如來藏/真如/本際…) such as the greatly wise manjushri bodhisattva (文殊師利菩薩) or the holy Vimalakirti bodhisattva (維摩詰居士)…. And you will get a very bad karma if you are making a mistake to slander real advisors who can teach us the primary meaning of Buddhist sutras no matter you are accidental or on purpose and no matter you are Buddhists or not. Be a Buddhist, I’m truly worry about you and your afterlife. Who knows maybe we already collect the enough blessed rewards and wisdom that can let us meet bodhisattvas’ reincarnation right now, and maybe just in this forum.

Be a third part, I really feel “Buddhism” is trying to help us to learn the true meaning of Buddhist sutras. He quotes these sutras are just suitable and intelligible to explain his standpoints for us if you can really put your prejudice aside. Although I don’t know why you can’t just be calm down and really think thoroughly that maybe they (“Buddhism” , “iwonder” or “Zeusma”….maybe more people before that I didn’t check ) are trying save you from Tantrism sexual method practice and wrong teaching.

I always read the quotes or related websites from articles mentioned to make sure what the remarks are correct or nonsense. And I think, if you really read these two articles from “iwonder” mentioned as bellow, then you won’t said this kind of words:
You said “Only a person with a narrow mind can become fixated on one or two people when there are 1000s of contrary examples. Grow up.” EXTIBETANBUDDHIST.COM/2014/1 … -BUDDHISM/
INSTITUTIONALIZED SEXUAL ABUSE IN TIBETAN ‘BUDDHISM’

Your comment is just like this situation:
One fool father has 10 daughters. One day, his most beautiful youngest daughter told him, that she has been sexual assault by his best friend. This fool father can’t believe that. He said ”It can’t be! Only you say so, the other 9 sisters didn’t say that. You must be a liar.” Then this fool father punished his youngest daughter severely instead to find out the truth. And another day, this fool father’s another beautiful younger daughter came to tell him the same thing that she has been sexual assault by his best friend. This fool father did the same thing, he said” It can’t be! Only you and your youngest sister say so, the other 8 sisters didn’t say that. You must be a liar.” So he punished this daughter severely again and didn’t want to check if his best friend is a rapist or not. Then this fool father’s best friend rapes all his other daughters and these daughters did say nothing because they are all afraid of his father’s punishment.
How pathetic, isn’t it?! Be a mercy Buddhist, should be and will be unearthing the dirty truth even only one person dare said so to help others not been injured again, not to mention so many sentient being share their dirty and miserable life in Lamaism. If you determine to help these pool victims, you can find the truth that you don’t want to face to get more cases by googling just use the keywords “lama sexual abuse”.

I read the very famous lama’s another book of “How to Practice: The Way to Meaningful Life” in Chinese version recently because of your debate (author: The fourteenth Dalai lama) (修行的第一堂課). He wrote that lamas use the sexual intercourse for their method to practice on page 178~180. How can be a sensible Buddhist will agree with this kind of sexual method to practice for the Budi way?!! I don’t get who will be foolish just like that. Are you??? My my!! I hope not!

Buddha never teaches us that kind of dirty method. So I can definitely for sure that Lamaism or present Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism. Lamas are definitely not Buddhists. The truth is truth. I care about is present what they (lamas) have done, no matter you kept saying how important of scholars or lineages.

Again, hope you can just stand on mercy Buddhists’ side to think and value others’ commentary maybe are right and mining the truth of Lamaism’s doctrines and real more victims cases with heart then back to share.


#1042

This is part of the problem. You are confused and have no understanding of the practices and the theory and realizations behind them. And so you come here and ask “how can a sensible buddhist agree with this?”

To you this is a genuine question because you truly don’t know much regarding the topic.

Luckily there is a great deal of scholarship in english. Some has been translated to chinese, but mostly it is in english. You can read for example “The Tantric Distinction” to gain much understanding about the precise reasoning behind tantric practices.


#1043

Dear website administrator, please do let me know if the picture is inappropriate or I violate the rule, I shall delete it immediately.

Dear Triceratops, Please kindly think rationally, beside words and books, how your scholarship explain the buddha statues like this worshipped by followers.


This is couple-body statues of Lamaism worshipped in Guangren Temple, Xian, China (中國大陸西安廣仁寺), the lower part of statues is usually veiled.

The above picture is retrieved from lamatruth.com/fanti/common/u … 58491z.jpg

The means of Buddhist practice will never be sexual intercourse as it will only draw followers down. It is not only far-fetched but is malicious to connect sex and Buddha Dharma. These two things are totally in opposite direction.

Just like a lady put all money in friends’ company that, according to her friends’ saying , is an excellent choice, to secure her life after retirement, as time goes by, not only it is not as profitable as being told, but also those who run the company are receiving good pay with luxury lives. Gradually, she feels odd, checking from time to time, always get different answers, then she decides she wants the money back. Some of those friends keep persuading her not to step back with strange reason such as they earn the money base on loses, or explain her how company work with complex theory that knowledge is so difficult only 5 people in the world understand it.

HOW CAN A COMPANY EARN ON LOSSES? AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE HER MONEY SEEMS BRAGGING ACCORDING TO WHAT IS HAPPENNING IS COMPANY ISI NOT THAT PROFITABLE AND CHANGING THEIR EXPLAINATIONS ALL THE TIME.

Unless she’d being hypnosis, or is easier to keep going on without thinking, shouldn’t it is kind of easy to judge what makes sense and what doesn’t?

True Buddha Dharma is teaching us free from suffering, by abandon especially lustful behaviors, INSTEAD OF EMBRACING IT. Buddha Dharma is not metaphysics, it can be validated by everyone including male LAMA and female practitioner if they use correct way.


#1044

This is part of the problem. You are confused and have no understanding of the practices and the theory and realizations behind them. And so you come here and ask “how can a sensible buddhist agree with this?”

To you this is a genuine question because you truly don’t know much regarding the topic.

Luckily there is a great deal of scholarship in english. Some has been translated to chinese, but mostly it is in english. You can read for example “The Tantric Distinction” to gain much understanding about the precise reasoning behind tantric practices.[/quote]

Please reply me about the questions from this book of “The Way to Meaningful Life” by author: The fourteenth Dalai lama (I think you can easily find the English version) before you suggest me to read another book.
Question 1: Did you lama really use sexual intercourse for your “tantric practices” ? No matter how exalted purpose you said.
Question 2: Do you agree with your mother or/and your daughters or your relatives can be forced to have sexual intercourse with your Rinpoche (or your own teacher) because of the " precise reasoning behind tantric practices” ?!
I hope I can get the “No” answer from you.
And, you were not me, how do you really know “I don’t know much regarding the topic” ?


#1045

[quote]Question 2: Do you agree with your mother or/and your daughters or your relatives can be forced to have sexual intercourse with your Rinpoche (or your own teacher) because of the " precise reasoning behind tantric practices" ?!
I hope I can get the “No” answer from you.
And, you were not me, how do you really know “I don’t know much regarding the topic” ?[/quote]

How do I know? Because you ask very stupid basic questions. The only reason a person would ask them is because they are completely clueless about the practices.

This question has already been answered many times in this thread:

– there are very very few people capable of doing these practices, and furthermore they make up .01% of practices. For example, a monk will train for 20 years studying dharmakirti, dignaga, chandrakirti, buddhapalita, asanga, vasubhandhu, in order to get their geshe degree. After this they might go to tantric college to learn about tantric practices. After 25 years of study they will then go and do some retreat. After 30 years, 99.9% of these monks will still not have the sufficient realization to do these practices

– noone forces anyone into relationships or practices. If they do, only an idiot wouldn’t call the police.

No, as I said, the majority of tantra let alone sutra has nothing to do with these things that look like sex to you. Furthermore, they look like sex to you because you don’t have a clue what is happening. As I and the book you quoted have attempted to explain to you, these people are using samadhi in addition to stimulating energy pathways within the body, in order to create certain subtle mental states, which are impossible to generate otherwise.

Ignorant people who have no understanding of what is happening will look at it and say “its sex”. You are free to call it that, but you should also understand and explain their point of view.


#1046

[quote=“triceratopses”]
No, as I said, the majority of tantra let alone sutra has nothing to do with these things that look like sex to you. Furthermore, they look like sex to you because you don’t have a clue what is happening. . . these people are using samadhi in addition to stimulating energy pathways within the body, in order to create certain subtle mental states, which are impossible to generate otherwise. [/quote]
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: here we go again, triceratopses, could you stop fooling people?! Stop fooling yourself !!
Everyone can see and know : having sex Is having sex, no matter who is doing it in what so ever name doing it.

Even you and your Tantrism / Lamaism groups kept saying: “ No, no, no. When we are at it, it then is not called Sex; (Yeah, because you are so special … you are so different from other human being) etc., etc., Although Buddha Shakyamuni’s Buddhism Sutras didn’t / never teach sexual practice; but we do it anyway, because we are tantrism and lamaism … Sooooooo, its not called sex … ”
:astonished: :astonished: The above sexual intercourse photo and web site address Zeusma provided, is obviously doing sex; “Mating” is more suitable. Worse, its more of Pornography and Orgy then regular sex; because they do it by groups and kept swapping partners as much as they wanting to.
(always, beneath the name of gods and goddess, people under-covered themselves with whatever they thought fitted)

***** Zeusma provided quotation from book of Tsongkhapa (see as below), clearly show us of the whole story with lamaism sexual practice really is the world biggest fooling joke.
Zeusma: (page 104)
【triceratopses wrote:Emptiness is pure in the sense that it’s free from suffering ie. being perceptible by a suffering mind】 :laughing:
Zeusma:
Of course tantric followers are free from suffering when they realized the emptiness.
Who feels suffering while reaching climax?

According to Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path authored by Tsongkhapa,
during fourth-joy of pleasurable union, perceptive mind and that time is shapeless and formless, is called emptiness (-nature).

In English:
If practitioners think nothing while reaching orgasm during sex, they are emptiness realized.
I think many beast or animal are emptiness realized according to this standard.


#1047

[quote=“triceratopses”][quote][quote=“ginachang”]Question 2: Do you agree with your mother or/and your daughters or your relatives can be forced to have sexual intercourse with your Rinpoche (or your own teacher) because of the " precise reasoning behind tantric practices" ?!
I hope I can get the “No” answer from you.
And, you were not me, how do you really know “I don’t know much regarding the topic” ?[/quote]

How do I know? Because you ask very stupid basic questions. The only reason a person would ask them is because they are completely clueless about the practices.

– noone forces anyone into relationships or practices. If they do, only an idiot wouldn’t call the police.
[/quote][/quote]

I am so sorry to let you feel these questions are “stupid”. Sounds you are impatient to everyone. I thought everyone should respect individual as a human being, let alone practicing Buddhists’. Maybe this does just confirm the truth of “lamas are not Buddhists”.

I might be asking questions from “Buddhism” only instead from you to get away from your irascible temper afterwards.

Yes! We hope everybody can protect themselves with common sense when they meet bad guys or intent one. But you know things are not going right all the time especially when the person you respect in the beginning or everyone around you told you this person is “divine” “Rinpoche” or “guru” who you should worship. When we think this person is no harm or respectable then we will easily lost our vigilance most of time. And most of victims blamed themselves instead when they had been sexual abused and then afraid to tell everyone let alone to call the police telling past the painful process. That’s why we discuss this topic of if lama’s doctrine “tantric practice” is included “sexual intercourse” or not to help innocent people who just want to learn and practice real Buddha’s teaching can get away from dangerous situations.

You reminded me should read more information to discuss about this topic and I did.

The book named “Traveller in Space: Gender, Identity, and Tibetan Buddhism”(空行母) (author: Scottish Philosopher June Campbell) I read. How miserable her life is! Doctor Campbell told us why she didn’t dare to call police when things of “sexual intercourse asking from her so called respectable Kalu Rinpoche” happened and been asked to keep doing this dirty thing for over years and years and she is not the only one victim. She had been intimidated by Kalu’s followers if she dared to tell this truth. She got rid of their threatened shadow and encouraged herself to tell what “Tantra” really is until decades after……
amazon.com/Traveller-Space-I … 0826457193
(where English version you can get)
a202.idv.tw/a202-big5/Book20 … 2031-0.htm
(Chinese version you can get)
I feel very sad to know this real tragic story and hope everyone should never follow in her footsteps.

And since we live in Taiwan and discuss this topic, we should also check out how many these kinds of news of ”lama sexual abuse” happened in Taiwan by googling in Chinese characters”喇嘛性侵”. Then you will understand how deep sympathy goes to you and why we want to figure it out.


#1048

Thank you Ginachang, for your posts.
You are a good Buddhist practitioner, good for you! :thumbsup:

I meant to thank you earlier, though I noticed that Triceratops need to have the priority!
Keep courage!


#1049

[quote=“iwonder”]… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: here we go again,…
:laughing:
[/quote]

To be honest, I feel the same way, but life is really tough when someone walks the wrong path.
Appreciate your posts!
Thanks a lot.
:thumbsup:


#1050

[color=#0000FF]The Dalai Lama can’t change anything. Scholars writing in english have changed it.[/color] Nevertheless he gave good reasons why it cannot be called lamaism and why it can’t be viewed as something different to indian buddhism. And so unlike modern scholars on the topic in ivy league universities in the us and uk, [color=#0000FF]you are alone in your view of tibetan buddhism[/color].
[/quote]

:no-no: :no-no:
You’re very wrong again!
First, I will show you one of many Western links that exposes the true nature of Tantric Lamaism, and it will prove the fact that I am certainly not alone.

You cannot just randomly babbled that “the scholars have changed it,” because it is not true!
In my next posting, I will prove to the readers that you are the one who is simply clueless of how the H.H. has craftily changed the name “Lamaism” into TB.

dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2 … ach-other/
Tibetan Budhism accuses the NKT of being a cult. Here is the latest in their frenzied attack on each other
Let us be clear they both approve consort sex and have nothing to do with Buddhism. They are Hindu Tantraists masquerading as Buddhists….”


#1051

[quote=“iwonder”]In English:
If practitioners think nothing while reaching orgasm during sex, they are emptiness realized.
I think many beast or animal are emptiness realized according to this standard.[/quote]

No, this is not what they assert at all. You simply have no clue what you are talking about.

Zeusma knows neither the tibetan of what s/he is talking about, nor the definition of the words s/he is talking about. In other words, s/he is completely clueless. A complete joke. I am waiting for the tibetan and the definitions, because your english idea of what it means is very stupid and mistaken. Refer to the debate in tibet between shantarakshita and huashang when buddhism was being established in tibet by indian masters. The type of meaning of emptiness that you and zeusma are asserting was completely banned in tibet. It is not found anywhere in any tibetan text, except as objects of ridicule.

You quoted some meaningless blog post. Buddhism, you are becoming more and more of a joke. I suggest you study the scholarship on the topic. Also the article does nothing to indicate that the dalai lama has the authority to change names of anything, which is what you asserted. Did you forget your own topic you were trying to prove?


#1052

Yes it is an interesting account of her experiences. Wikipedia says the following, “She waited 18 years before publishing her work. The book itself does not detail the relationship in any detail or provide conclusive proof. It seeks to place her understanding of her personal experiences within a more theoretical understanding of the role of the feminine in Tibetan Buddhism.”

Regarding Kalu Rinpoche, it is interesting to suggest that after meditating for 30 years, including a 15 year strict solitary retreat, that he would then come down and at the age of 60 start engaging in “sex”.

I suggest to you he was doing something else :roflmao:


#1053

[quote=“Buddhism”]
To be honest, I feel the same way, but life is really tough when someone walks the wrong path.
Appreciate your posts!
Thanks a lot.
:thumbsup:[/quote]
:bow: :bow: :bow:
Thank you so much for sharing us your correct ample knowledge and firm stance, in true buddhism Buddha Shakyamuni path.

for whom has benefited daily in learning of the Buddha path, would all agree with me that life can be so fulfilling, in peace and positive, living with in this true buddhism wisdom; enjoy the fruit in coming good karmas; not to mention the opportunity becoming the realized one (in any possible coming time).

Although also lots people out there are doubting that getting realized seems to be an impossible dream in this life or in most life; Triceratopses and s/his Tantrism sexual groups, as an example …
【quote/Triceratopses : 99.9999% of practitioners will not reach anything near the type of skill needed for these practices in this lifetime, and is irrelevant for them.】


#1054

[quote=“triceratopses”][quote=“iwonder”]In English:
If practitioners think nothing while reaching orgasm during sex, they are emptiness realized.
I think many beast or animal are emptiness realized according to this standard.[/quote]

No, this is not what they assert at all. You simply have no clue what you are talking about.

Zeusma knows neither ... Refer to the debate in tibet between shantarakshita and huashang when buddhism was being established in tibet by indian masters. The type of meaning of emptiness that you and zeusma are asserting was completely banned in tibet. It is not found anywhere in any tibetan text, except as objects of ridicule. [/quote]

The Samyay Debate

Before he died, Shantarakshita predicted a conflict between two schools of Buddhism, the Chinese Chan School teaching instant enlightenment and his own Indian school’s teaching of a gradual path of study, analysis, and ethical discipline. He directed that his disciple, Kamalashila, should be invited to stand for the Indian system.

A protracted debate between the two schools occurred at Samyay from 792 to 794. The Chinese system was argued by a Chinese monk called “Hoshang” (Ho-shang Ma-ha-ya-na) [hoshang is the Chinese word for “monk”], and the Indian system by Kamalashila. The Indian system was judged to have prevailed, and Emperor Tri Songdetsen thus declared it to be Tibet’s official religion.

The outcome of the debate may have also been influenced by political events, since there were constant border conflicts with China in the second half of the eighth century. [Hugh Richardson (“Political Aspects of the Snga-dar, the First Diffusion of Buddhism in Tibet,” Bulletin of the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University, vol. 2, no. 3) points out, as evidence of the political struggle behind the debate, that monks from the rival Tibetan noble families that were pro-China and anti-China were present throughout the debate.

Thus, at the time of the Samyay debate, Tibet and China were fighting on not just two, but on three fronts. This undoubtedly affected the Chinese side’s loss of the debate.


#1055

[quote=“triceratopses”]…
No, as I said, [color=#0000FF]the majority of tantra let alone sutra has nothing to do with these things that look like sex to you. Furthermore, they look like sex to you because you don’t have a clue what is happening. …[/color]
[color=#0000FF]Ignorant people who have no understanding of what is happening will look at it and say “its sex”.[/color] [/quote]

It seems that everybody is “clueless” about tantric sexual practice, except you!
Of course, I will show you one more “clueless” case which was brought to the U.S. court; perhaps Sogyal Rinpoche replied the same word to the judge when asked about his “sexual abuses.”

'$10 million civil suit filed in Santa Cruz by a woman who says Sogyal Rinpoche, author of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, “coerced” her into an intimate relationship.
With the blessings of the Dalai Lama, a group of American Buddhist women have launched a campaign to expose the alleged sexual misconduct of a prominent Tibetan lama and best-selling author.
Sogyal Rinpoche, author of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, is accused of “physical, mental and sexual abuse” in a $10 million civil suit filed last week in Santa Cruz County Superior Court.

‘This (abuse) is in large part a result of the naiveté of westerners when it comes to visiting Asian gurus. People who are deeply suspicious of western organized religion suspend all scepticism when it comes to smiling brown-skinned men telling them to let go of their attachments as they slide their hand onto their knee. People in the West are so desperate for spiritual salvation they are prepared to blind themselves to the rogues and charlatans making millions of dollars through the New Age industry in the last 30 years.’
dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2 … -rinpoche/
BRIEFING DOCUMENT ON SOGYAL RINPOCHE

It’s a real blessing that you’ve stopped this awful clueless practice, lucky you, or poor you!


#1056

Yes, and the material they were debating is important to know. The view you assert as condoned by tibetan buddhism is precisely the position which was defeated and banned thanks to the indian masters. This is another clear example of how tibetan buddhism is a direct continuation of indian buddhism which links to nagarjuna, which links to lord buddha.

[quote=“Buddhism”]It seems that everybody is “clueless” about tantric sexual practice, except you!
Of course, I will show you one more “clueless” case which was brought to the U.S. court; perhaps Sogyal Rinpoche replied the same word to the judge when asked about his “sexual abuses.”[/quote]

Of course you are. You and your fellows quote things you don’t even know the tibetan word for, or what it means ie. its definition.

I don’t care what Sogyal Rinpoche did or did not do. It doesn’t mean anything about tantra. Its like saying that the title of “president of the united states” should be abolished because clinton got a blowjob. You make no sense.


#1057

[quote=“Buddhism”]Buddha means the enlightened one. Around 2500 years ago, the Buddha manifested as a human being (human path) and passed down Buddhism. The Buddha wished to share us the essence of his enlightenment. Therefore, Buddhism is neither a philosophy by itself, nor an academic research system. It is a matter of actual realization. In other words, the Buddha dharmas (teachings) are the Buddha’s personal experiences that are feasible for Buddhists to carry out. This fact ensures that human beings have the most potential to get enlightened after cultivations. For this reason, Buddhist cultivation is deeply interlinked in everyone’s daily life.
There are several fundamental concepts of Buddhism, among others, the law of cause-and-effect and the unceasing transmigration. These are all based on the Buddha nature that every sentient being innately possesses, otherwise, how could the ”unceasing transmigration” practically substantiate with the fact that our physical bodies do come to an end。
In fact, the genuine Buddha dharma is generally categorized into the Liberation-Way and the Buddhahood-Way, but the former is actually included in the latter. In terms of Buddhism, “liberation” refers to the fact of breaking the bond of the law of cause-and-effect in order to have the long cycle of births and deaths come to an end.[/quote]

Buddhahood is attainable for everyone, if we just follow his path, we will attain “enlightenment” one day too :notworthy:


#1058

Really?! How long is this likely to take? And how many enlightened beings can be found in the average dharma center?

Instead of Bill and Monica, imagine a political system which is chronically unable to deal with scandal, where politicians basically do whatever they want and get away with it. Perhaps there is some kind of “gentlemen’s agreement” in place ensuring that none of them is willing to accuse his colleagues, and the complaints of ordinary people are routinely dismissed as disgruntled ravings, or worse (to return to the Clinton example for a moment), as just what you get when you drag a dollar through a trailer park.

Even that analogy fails on some level, since Tibetan Buddhism has no elections, only a self-perpetuating clique of lamas who acknowledge one another as more or less divinely selected, and thus a far more exalted sort of creature than their worshippers. And since the leaders are Tibetan, but the rank and file is non-Tibetan, the whole set-up takes on unfortunate imperialist overtones.


#1059

Strange view that 10,000s of scholar monks (and now nuns) should be in such great collusion. In reality, only the most authentic practitioners rose to great influence in old tibet. Many chose to remain silent in permanent retreat. Likewise now, no-one can fake it in the age of the internet.

Regarding exaltation: A real teacher will have samadhi, and the mind of a person with samadhi is much higher than that of an ordinary person. For example ordinary people cannot even control their emotions (mental factors), whereas someone with dhyana samadhi has temporary cessation of the destructive emotions that can be observed in the world. They are free from sensual craving in an absolute and total sense. And so on.

So, they should be held in high regard, but not out of some stupid faith, but with learned and skillful discrimination.


#1060

Limiting ourselves to the sort of lama who would have a position of power over a dharma center, I suppose we are talking about a worldwide population of several thousand, and a relatively famous core of several hundred. Not all are monks (or nuns–hardly any leaders would be female in any case), and only a minority would be “scholars” in the traditional sense. Many (such as Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche) inherit their spiritual power by being born into a famous family, though they do generally go through some sort of training. Others (like Thubten Yeshe) derive their charisma from founding a large dharma center. Some are yogins.