The Bodhi Way (三乘菩提)

Arts & Sciences Religion & Spirituality
1141

[quote=“Zla’od”]So, are you guys going to change your signs to reflect this latest interest in Cittamatra? Just picture something like this scrolling across the Zhengjue building:

“BUDDHA TAUGHT EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESSES, NAMELY THE FIVE SENSE CONSCIOUSNESSES PLUS THREE LEVELS OF MENTAL CONSCIOUSNESS CULMUNATING IN THE ALAYAVIJNANA OR STOREHOUSE CONSCIOUSNESS, WHICH IN EAST ASIA IS OFTEN CONFLATED WITH TATHAGATAGARBHA OR BUDDHA NATURE”
Catchy, no?[/quote]

Absolutely not!!
Please do tell, from your kind sign-suggestion cues, what’s the differences between “THE FIVE[color=#0000FF] SENSE CONSCIOUSNESSES[/color]” PLUS THREE LEVELS OF “[color=#0000FF]MENTAL CONSCIOUSNESS”[/color]?

Are the FIVE SENSE CONSCIOUSNESSES not the [color=#0000FF]MENTAL[/color] CONSCIOUSNESS?
They are called[color=#0000FF] CONSCIOUSNESSES[/color] all the same!
Are you trying to say that apart from MENTAL CONSCIOUSNESSES, there are other existing sorts of CONSCIOUSNESSES?
What then?

Any Buddhist equipped with decent knowledge can see the flaws from your single statement, so how can we unwisely put up your absurd sign?

My dear Zla’od, this is not a latest interest, you should have known better, the principle teaching of Citta, vijnana-only 唯識, has been propagated since Buddha Sakyamuni’s time, among others, including The Flower Garland Sutra [ Avataṃsaka-sūtra], the Lankavatara Sutra , The Mahavaipulya-Tathagatagarbha Sutra , etc.

Without the existence of TATHAGATAGARBHA OR BUDDHA NATURE, there will be no Buddhism or Buddhahood to talk about, then sentient beings will live only once!

Cathy, NO?

1142

It is nice to see that Zla’od knew there are Eight vijnanas.

Many claimed Buddhists don’t even know about Eight vijnanas, especially the 7th and the 8th.
They don’t know that without the 8th Alaya Vijnana, there won’t be reincarnation and dharmas.

How unfortunate for those “the Six vijnanas only” followers, spend all their time and effort but to the wrong direction, ended in vain.
Had their leaders been able to enlightened then, question solved … don’t you think? :bow:

1143

A Journey through the Buddha Dharma

The eye-vijnana and the eyes (organs) are responsible for receiving and distinguishing colors. The eyes are like a camera, they capture external images. These get converted into neural messages and are transmitted to the visual area in the brain, where the eye-vijnana distinguishes the colors. While Brother One is sorting out the colors, Brother Six, Conscious Mind, tries to makes sense of the visual image, “Hmm, what’s this?”

Brother six will notice even more subtle shades, tones, and contrasts showing sizes and shapes in an effort to identify objects. In the blink of an eye, he searches through the memory data base, compares these objects with things has come across before and then decides what it must be “Hmm…flower…ah, a rose!” Meanwhile, Brother Seven, Manas, always keeps an eye out -so to speak- to make sure he also knows the information that Brother Six knows.

Brother Two, the ear-vijnana, and the ears (organs) deal with sounds. Like a recording devise, the ears gather sound waves, change them into neural signals, and pass them to the auditory (hearing) area in the brain. There, the ear-vijnana distinguishes the volume, pitch of the sounds. Then, faster than a supersonic jet, Brother Six is there to examine this information further! (Part 4)

1144

Funny how inept these explanationa are. You could not make a single dent against any of the real teachers out there. You should be very very afraid of all the well trained geshes learning chinese…they are going to walk all over you its not even funny.

1145

[quote=“Buddhism”]A Journey through the Buddha Dharma

The eye-vijnana and the eyes (organs) are responsible for receiving and distinguishing colors. The eyes are like a camera, they capture external images. These get converted into neural messages and are transmitted to the visual area in the brain, where the eye-vijnana distinguishes the colors. While Brother One is sorting out the colors, Brother Six, Conscious Mind, tries to makes sense of the visual image, “Hmm, what’s this?”
(Part 4)[/quote]

I’m really interested in your explanation of 8 vijnanas, especially the 8 brothers’ metaphor while I came back to this forum. Please keep going on this topic and don’t be distracted. I like your sharing style.

1146

It’s extremely dull and boring. What can be explained in 3 sentences does not require a metaphor, and especially not with something as nonsensical as “brothers”.

What is of actual benefit to people is in explaining how “rose” exists in particular colors and shapes. The idea that the mental conscious searches through every item it knows in order to come up with a rose is wrong.

The mind doesn’t have the time to do that, nor does every object appear to it before rose appears to it

1147

[quote=“triceratopses”]It’s extremely dull and boring. What can be explained in 3 sentences does not require a metaphor, and especially not with something as nonsensical as “brothers”.

What is of actual benefit to people is in explaining how “rose” exists in particular colors and shapes. The idea that the mental conscious searches through every item it knows in order to come up with a rose is wrong.

The mind doesn’t have the time to do that, nor does every object appear to it before rose appears to it[/quote]

Triceratopses, sorry to hear the feeling you get!
I think “Buddhism” is the one should reply to you, not me. I guess “Buddhism” will answer you in seriously, respectful manner and with no any negative word as usual. That’s what I think a real Buddhist will do.

It let me recall to the student’s time.

Normally some good and discipline students listen to teachers’ teaching are in very respectful and appreciate attitude. Of cause they will ask questions while they don’t get the meanings, and they also can discuss the issues of different perspectives with teachers. Listen carefully, precisely and thankfully are students’ responsibility. Prepared and individualized are teachers’ duties. Students are not only learn knowledge from teachers but also be trained the morality from the class.

If they didn’t be trained well, then these students will be unethical and will become the social or even more serious of country problems.

So, while one person said “It’s extremely dull and boring” to describe a volunteer who share something new, interesting and profound sutras to everyone, then I can say, this person must be an extremely arrogant in any field.

Let alone you think you are a Buddhist?! A real Buddhist shouldn’t in that kind of manner to everyone. So, again, I believe you are Lama, right? So, in front, lots conversation from you and “Buddhism” and “iwonder” and…all want to proof “Tibet Buddhism is not Buddhism, they are lama.” Or not….
Indeed! From this kind of answer manner, you definitely are not a Buddhist, are you?

“Tibet Buddhism is not Buddhism, they are lama.” I can see why and the different now! Thanks for your demonstration.

Back to the topics, I feel this brothers’ metaphor is quite good and easy to understand if you did read with heart and don’t always in condemnatory methodology, and with no any malicious judge, try to calm to let “Buddhism” can keep going to explain, then that will be good luck for all of us.

Leave alone the human being’s manner issue. Can you explain more about your idea of rose case? And why do you think “The mind doesn’t have the time to do that…”?
Isn’t the “mind” is quite unbelievable shrewd? What’s the main issue you are trying to connect with?

I am asking you sincerely with no any challenge means just as I asked “Buddhism”.
Hope you can help me to figure it out.

1148

Yes, unlike certain peoples infantile explanations there is actually an unbelievably complex system of cognition theory in real buddhism. This topic is called anya-apoha within the general topic of pramana

All minds have in them the inherent mistake of cognizing generalities such as ‘rose’ or ‘cow’ as either the same as a particular characteristic/collection of characteristics or as independent of them

For example a tree seems to be in the visible object in front of us. The car on the street really seems to be a car. Other times it seems that we can think of a tree independent of any characteristic, a car independent of any piece of data. Often persons feel this way, “i am in control of my mind and body”, this is the major cognitive mistake.

One of buddha’s great discoveries and unraveling of the mind, which has nothing to do with quoting sutra like a dementia patient, is in demonstrating that the person is not the same as its parts, yet neither is it different to them. Similar to how a tree is not the same as the thing growing out of the ground in front of you, nor is it something different to it

Sorry if the english is too hard

1149

So, whatever rose is, it is not the same as colors and shapes, but then nor is it a findable characteristic independent of colors and shapes

For this reason the mental consciousness does not search for such things, since in real buddhism they are not accepted as existing things, and are not observable in advanced concentration (samadhi)

Furthermore if mind had to search for such objects it would have to go through many visual patterns which would take a long time, as well as they would need to appear to the mind since this is part of mental activity

1150

Apparently you have not the slightest knowledge of the fundamental Agama 阿含經 teacings, the first round of dharma transmission that mainly focused on the very basics of name-and-form 名色 (more detailed in p. 7). This is precisely the same style that Buddha Shakyamuni taught in the Saṃyukta Āgama; it is necessary to have the vijnanas and sense-organs to be specifically explained in this way in order to facilitate practitioners for further observation and contemplatation.

This is of course beyond your limited speculation, as you don’t have the crux of Buddhism to start with but merely rely on literal fascination. It is just like someone who wishes to own a magnificent Taipei 101, without knowing the importance of building its solid foundation first.

The point is not about hard English or not; the key is that you don’t even know what you are talking about apart from playing with pure fantasy; oh, I am convinced that you are very dedicating though.

When it comes to a Buddhist knower, your balloon will surely blow off 牛皮爆破 loud and clear, isn’t it?
Poor thing, you have tried your best!! Thank you.

1151

[quote=“Buddhism”]
How about Helen Keller’s case?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller
She was deafblind and was still able to eat, drink, study and live her whole life through!

[color=#0000FF]And what’s the purpose of shutting down all the senses?[/color] [/quote]

BTW, yet no reply to my questions?

1152

To some he did, becauae it was appropriate and beneficial for them, and they made rapid progress. Teaching modern people who are essentially all nihilists and hedonists this way is completely useless and pointless. Its just meaningless data the word mean almost nothing

What is an example of not knowing what i’m talkinf about, and what is an example of fantasy

I already answered your question by addressing a similar one. The purpose of shutting down the sense consciousnesses completely is so that the mental consciousness can gain an increased capacity to concentrate.

For example complete shutdown of the 5 occurs upon entering 2nd dhyana of thr form realm. Prior to this, the 5 are heavily suppresses and dormant and cannot harm a persons concentration. If somebody is cooking fresh pizza in front of you, you can’t smell it, or hear it. If hot oil lands on you you can’t feel it. This is only from a samadhi which can suppress thr 5. The samadhi that dissolves the 5 even in their dormant state is much more powerful

1153

I cannot fully agree with your viewpoint, at least you and more others are still browsing this religious thread, curious about being and non-being.
Deep down in their minds, without self knowing, the minds of all nihilists and hedonists are still based upon eternalism that they long for an existent eternity; this is an intrinsic nature of every living being, including ants, bees, insects, germs, etc.
Take insects for example, they just want to survive by all means in spite of their intellectual range.
That’s why we call the phenomenal world as the existing three realms 三界有.
So how can human being truly take in the fact that we could only live once?

[quote=“triceratopses”]…I already answered your question by addressing a similar one. The purpose of [color=#0000FF]shutting down the sense consciousnesses completely [/color][color=#0000FF]is so that the mental consciousness [/color][color=#0000FF]can gain an increased capacity to concentrate.[/color]

For example complete shutdown of the 5 occurs upon entering 2nd dhyana of thr form realm. Prior to this, the 5 are heavily suppresses and dormant and cannot harm a persons concentration. [color=#0000FF] If somebody is cooking fresh pizza in front of you, you can’t smell it, or hear it.[/color] [color=#0000FF] If hot oil lands on you you can’t feel it[/color]. This is only from a samadhi which can suppress thr 5. The samadhi that dissolves the 5 even in their dormant state is much more powerful[/quote]

Utter fantasy!!

See your conflicting statements above.
Shutting down the sense consciousnesses completely is so that a person will be entirely without mental consciousness, so how can this person gain an increased capacity to concentrate?

As you’ve stated and assured that [color=#0000FF]If somebody is cooking fresh pizza in front of you, you can’t smell it, or hear it.[/color] [color=#0000FF] If hot oil lands on you you can’t feel it[/color], it means that this person is totally unconscious.
If someone is unconscious, how can he concentrate?

Who is fantasizing Buddhist Dhyana?

1154

Now we can see how vital it is to comprehend the seemingly nagging contents of the eight vijnanas, especially that of their specific functions.

In terms of Buddhist cultivation, one cannot just grossly use the term of “consciousness,” it’s a generic term for daily life but not for Buddhist practitioners who truly intent to achieve enlightenment or to enter nirvana.

The Samadhi topic is not the main theme of this thread, so I will simply point out Triecer’s flaws regarding Samadhi to demonstrate a bit of true Buddhist cultivation.

It is not shutting off the five consciousnesses, rather, it is a method to still the perceiving and observing mind so that they will not afflict practitioners’ meditative concentration. Having stilling the mind through skillful technique, practitioners can focus the mind in a continuous Samadhi state of mental object 定境法塵. Most importantly, practitioners certainly are not unconscious, or they cannot cultivate anything, right?

If practitioners are able to dwell in this state for an extensive period of time through assiduous practice, he should gradually enter the state of access concentration (Skt. upacārasamādhi; 未到地定). Once he is able to enter the access concentration and becomes adept at it, he will be able to attain the First Dhyāna with clear perception and observation when his habitual hindrances are eliminated. The First Dhyāna comes with the functional benefits of pleasurable physical touch, known as the bliss of one-pointed perception and observation 一心覺觀喜樂.

This is a very brief description of attaining the First Dhyāna, and an English version of this Samadhi practice in motion 動中定力 is in progress.

1155

At no point did I say the mental consciousness ceases or shuts down. The sense consciousnesses do in 2nd dhyana but not in the 1st. In the 1st they are only completely suppressed, to the point that sounds right next to your ear or food smells right under your nose will not distract you.

The physical bliss of pliancy ceases in the 2nd dhyana, at the time where all sense consciousness cease because they are so coarse and undesirable

1156

[quote=“triceratopses”]At no point did I say the mental consciousness ceases or shuts down. The sense consciousnesses do in 2nd dhyana but not in the 1st. In the 1st they are only completely suppressed, to the point that sounds right next to your ear or food smells right under your nose will not distract you.

The physical bliss of pliancy ceases in the 2nd dhyana, at the time where all sense consciousness cease because they are so coarse and undesirable[/quote]

This is interesting. Are you speaking from first-hand personal experience? Otherwise, what is your source for this information?

1157

[quote=“Rotalsnart”][quote=“triceratopses”]At no point did I say the mental consciousness ceases or shuts down. The sense consciousnesses do in 2nd dhyana but not in the 1st. In the 1st they are only completely suppressed, to the point that sounds right next to your ear or food smells right under your nose will not distract you.

The physical bliss of pliancy ceases in the 2nd dhyana, at the time where all sense consciousness cease because they are so coarse and undesirable[/quote]

This is interesting. Are you speaking from first-hand personal experience? Otherwise, what is your source for this information?[/quote]

People who talk about their meditative experience are assholes, unless they are in a unique position where to do so can help people concretely.

Nor is it good to ask about it, since anyone can easily claim anything and call it samadhi or vipashyana, no matter how clueless or deluded they might be, and you have no way of knowing.

To answer your question though, there is extensive literature on these topics

1158

[quote=“triceratopses”][quote=“Rotalsnart”][quote=“triceratopses”]At no point did I say the mental consciousness ceases or shuts down. The sense consciousnesses do in 2nd dhyana but not in the 1st. In the 1st they are only completely suppressed, to the point that sounds right next to your ear or food smells right under your nose will not distract you.

The physical bliss of pliancy ceases in the 2nd dhyana, at the time where all sense consciousness cease because they are so coarse and undesirable[/quote]

This is interesting. Are you speaking from first-hand personal experience? Otherwise, what is your source for this information?[/quote]

[color=#0000FF]People who talk about their meditative experience are assholes, unless they are in a unique position where to do so can help people concretely. [/color]

[color=#0000FF]Nor is it good to ask about it,since anyone can easily claim anything and call it samadhi or vipashyana, no matter how clueless or deluded they might be, and you have no way of knowing.[/color]

To answer your question though, [color=#0000FF]there is extensive literature on these topics[/color][/quote]
:laughing: :laughing:
What sort of a reply is this?
A typical evasive way of saying “I don’t know what I am babbling about!”

First stating that [color=#0000FF]People who talk about their meditative experience…, unless they are in a unique position where to do so can help people concretely.
[/color]
Then saying [color=#0000FF]Nor is it good to ask about it,since anyone can easily claim anything and call it samadhi or vipashyana, no matter how clueless or deluded they might be, and you have no way of knowing.[/color]

There comes your conclusion as [color=#0000FF]there is extensive literature on these topics[/color].

So are those extensive literature reliable or not?
Have you learned from those literature?
Or are your writings purely your own imagination?
Please have a look at your contradictory statements!

Your English is understandable, but your logic, unfortunately, is a dramatic tragic!! :unamused:

1159

I don’t think you understand english nuances.

What are the contradictions? Try to list just one.

Last time you asserted that I said that mental consciousnesses cease, even though you cannot quote me ever having said such a thing. I suggest you quiet down a bit, or you will appear more and more foolish.

1160

A Journey through the Buddha Dharma
Brother Six, Conscious Mind, investigates things further. For example, it would identify the source of the sound, such as where it comes from: an alarm clock, cell phone or a radio. Manas, Brother Seven, is all ears -so to speak- to what’s going on.

Brother Three, the nose-vijnana and the nose partner up to distinguish smells. Scents and smells in the air meet your nose and your nose turns them into neural messages. These messages are transmitted to the olfactory (smelling) area in the brain, where the nose-vijnana simply distinguishes pleasant from unpleasant smells.

Then, in a jiffy, Brother Six is there to further identify the finer qualities of the smell: “Mmm, green tea!” “Stinky! Durian!” And of course, Manas is going to poke his nose in -so to speak- to find out what is going on!

Brother Four, the tongue-vijnana and the tongue start the ball rolling on our tasting process. When food comes into contact with the tongue, the taste buds fire off information about the flavor of the food to the area in the brain where gustatory (tasting) information is processed. Then Brother Four, the tongue-vijnana, sorts out the different kinds of taste such as sweet, sour and bitter.

Lickety-split, Brother Six, Conscious Mind, is there to check out the details of the taste. For example, the sweetness of the soy milk, “too sweet… not sweet enough… just right!” And it just wouldn’t be complete if Manas didn’t stop by to get a taste of what is going on - so to speak. (Part 5)