The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

[Charlie_Jack]

@Dragonbones

[quote=“Fortigurn”]Ironically however, more people deconvert from religion to atheism than convert from atheism to religion; I wonder who’s more open minded and genuinely prepared to change?

Do you really believe that to be an intellectually honest insinuation?

(I’m quite sure Fortigurn intended this as tongue in cheek, and realizes and will explain for all the logical fallacy involved.)[/quote]

@Fortigurn

. . . rumble. . . .

@Fortigurn

[warning: this is a free for all]

[Chris]

@maoman

[quote=“Chris”][quote=“Fortigurn”]Ironically however, more people deconvert from religion to atheism than convert from atheism to religion

Once you see the light, it’s hard to go back. [/quote]
Not me. I left the church for about 12 ten years before I went back.[/quote]
Well, I was being cheeky. But leaving the church does not necessary imply becoming an atheist. In any case, I don’t know the details of your situation.

But for me, to ignore something as big as God didn’t make sense either.

But to have such a feeling would require first having a belief in god. That’s not atheism.

[bob]

@Fortigurn

[quote=“bob”]My guess is that you will read it at least.

Of course I read it. What would you like me to do about it?[/quote]

“Honestly,” what would “I” would like is that you remember the point that we (me, ST, MT etc.) made there and be a little more careful about the way you moderate that sort of issue in the future. I realize this isn’t the UN and I realize that you have a point (some of the stuff you see insulting religion would insult almost anyone with a half a brain.) I realize that people of like minds often desire, sometimes even need, a place to interact free of conflict or criticism from the outside. Obviously though the religion and spirituality thread isn’t that place and it is hard to imagine why it woud suddenly become that kind of place all of a sudden because TC labelelled a thread “Happy Easter.” I understand that moderators do an important job keeping at least a portion of the stupid crap people post off the main threads. I understand that a lot of the asinine stuff the anit-religion sector throws up definitley falls into the category of stupid crap. However, the point MT made wasn’t stupid crap, it wasn’t mindless heckling. It was rather a clever bit of rhetoric that went straight to the heart of the issue.

Outside a church, a psychiatric hospital maybe, or perhaps a funeral parlour nobody should be required to endure a phrase such as “the resurection of christ” without the FREEDOM to respond to it critically. Not a chance. You guys crossed a fine line there.

(BTW, I am not even trying to be pissy. You asked what I wanted and I gave an honest answer. I just happen to have strong values when it comes to this.)

[Charlie_Jack]

@bob

( . . . I just happen to have strong values when it comes to this.)

That would seem to be the case:

[quote=“bob”]You in fact don’t cause any problem with your religous beliefs. In fact it probably helps you to be good people. I don’t doubt that. But what you don’t see is that in your refusal to be swayed by any form of logic you actually possess the dirty seed at the root of it all, imperviousness.[/quote] Does anyone actually believe in all that stuff? - #275 by bob

[quote=“bob”]Religion is the deliberate (or not) confusion of those entirely distinct experiences and it is becoming very dangerous. It is actually one of the key problems of our age and it seems to be becoming worse. If I were to draw an analogy to a person I would have to say it is like watching a person being ravaged by mental illness. You know it is crazy, you watch the decline, and it happens anyway. Religious “belief,” the notion that anybody EVER heard God speak, or that they had any access whatsoever to his thoughts as might be embodied in language is collective psychosis, literally.[/quote] Does anyone actually believe in all that stuff? - #18 by bob

[quote=“bob”]It’s brainwashing essentially. Once in awhile you will see a troubled person find religion, frequently after they have fucked up their lives and have, perhaps, landed themselves in prison, but you almost never see an educated, informed, stable adult do that.[/quote] Does anyone actually believe in all that stuff? - #23 by bob

[quote=“bob”]If you or anybody else would be willing to put your beliefs out there to be examined we could at least make a start at determining whether it is correct.[/quote] Does anyone actually believe in all that stuff? - #182 by bob

[quote=“bob”]You might not want to do this for a number of reasons but at some point the religious community owes it to us. We live with the results of their decsisions. They “owe” us. That is more true of the muslim world obviously.[/quote] Does anyone actually believe in all that stuff? - #176 by bob

[jimipresley]

FFS, Charlie Jack! Stop playing god and post something in the “Beautiful Music” thread. Focus, dude! :bluemad:

[bob]

Charlie you are confusing values and beliefs. I “value” the right to free expression, and it is what I am arguing for there. I “believe” that religious belief is delusional to the extent that it involves belief in supernatural events. I think that delusional thinking is absolutely common to the human experience and that it is often a survival tool. But at some point the harm a delusion causes begins to outstrip it’s survival function, and IMHO opinion the religious delusion past that point some time ago.

I am curious about two things:

1. How many of the belivers here actually believe, for example, that Christ literally died a biological death and then came back to life some days later?

2. How many of you are involved in promoting Christian belief in Taiwan? Recently there seems to be a surge in interest and I wonder who is behind it.

Sort of random questions I suppose but I am curious. Thanks.

(Might not get back here for a couple of days, sorry)

[Fortigurn]

@bob

I realize that people of like minds often desire, sometimes even need, a place to interact free of conflict or criticism from the outside. Obviously though the religion and spirituality thread isn’t that place and it is hard to imagine why it woud suddenly become that kind of place all of a sudden because TC labelelled a thread “Happy Easter.”

You’re correct. This forum isn’t that place, and it didn’t suddenly become that place just because TC labeled a thread ‘Bless you on Easter’.

I understand that moderators do an important job keeping at least a portion of the stupid crap people post off the main threads. I understand that a lot of the asinine stuff the anit-religion sector throws up definitley falls into the category of stupid crap. However, the point MT made wasn’t stupid crap, it wasn’t mindless heckling. It was rather a clever bit of rhetoric that went straight to the heart of the issue.

And he was invited to repost it in another thread.

Outside a church, a psychiatric hospital maybe, or perhaps a funeral parlour nobody should be required to endure a phrase such as “the resurection of christ” without the FREEDOM to respond to it critically. Not a chance.

In this forum, no one is required to endure it either.

(BTW, I am not even trying to be pissy. You asked what I wanted and I gave an honest answer. I just happen to have strong values when it comes to this.)

bob the only problem here is that you desperately want to be persecuted by religious people, and since religious people have consistently refused to do so, you have to pretend that it’s actually happening when it isn’t. I don’t mind you doing that, as long as you cease the false accusations that this in any way reflects the reality of what happens in this forum.

@bob

1) How many of the belivers here actually believe, for example, that Christ literally died a biological death and then came back to life some days later?

I do.

@bob

2) How many of you are involved in promoting Christian belief in Taiwan? Recently there seems to be a surge in interest and I wonder who is behind it.

I am so busted! Whenever someone comes to our church asking us to explain our beliefs, I shamelessly answer their questions. I take full responsibility for all recent conversions anywhere on the island in the last 30 years, especially of people I have never met.

[Dragonbones]

@maoman

I left the church for about 12 ten years before I went back. Life makes more sense to me this way.

It’s good to do that in one’s youth, so as to be able to enjoy the vices of youth with less guilt, and then go back to the church once the hormones and blood alcohol levels have stabilized.

[maoman]

@Dragonbones

[quote=“maoman”]I left the church for about 12 ten years before I went back. Life makes more sense to me this way.

It’s good to do that in one’s youth, so as to be able to enjoy the vices of youth with less guilt, and then go back to the church once the hormones and blood alcohol levels have stabilized.[/quote]
That’s funny, but I think it would be against your argument to say that non-believers are more likely to indulge in guiltless vice than believers. Anyway, for better or worse, I’ve always been pretty much the same person, moral-fibre wise. :neutral:

[heimuoshu]

It’s funny how the moral issue always form part of these online “discussions”
Any reason why morality and religion have to be linked?
Almost like money and happiness…?

[Got_To_Be_Kidding]

Hmmm… this has actually turned out to be an interesting discussion. Good on you all.

The frustrated scientist in me finds the whole idea completely fascinating and more than a little ridiculous, which leads the ‘true believer’ part of me to pull out his bible and thump me with it.

There was a point in my own life where I stood up and looked over the wreckage of my past and realized that I’d gotten it all wrong. And, I don’t mean just a little. I basically had to get down and rebuild from ‘first principles’.

There’s this verse in Matthew where Jesus says this:

Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

That kept slapping me across the face every time I ran across it, until I started to realize that I was a part of something bitter and unappetizing. The fruit was bad, and I was on the wrong path. My athiest and agnostic friends had more love and care than those that I was hanging out with.

I had to sit back, reevaluate and look for those who had ‘good fruit’. I went off to see if they made any sense. They did, and the rest is detail.

I think that I’ve turned into a fanatic. I’m a fanatic about liking people without worrying about whether they are right or wrong. I’m into being a blessing to the people around me. I want something good to come out of everywhere I go, and everything that I do.

Jesus was friend to everyone and had harsh words only for those who were judgmental - something that I used to be. His entire life was an open invitation to a better way, which is a hard example to live up to.

Does that satisfy the part of me that is the geo-political analyst? That fact-checks everything and is hugely cynical?

No, but it does appeal to the sense of the ridiculous that I’ve developed over the years. We’re all completely insane, and I’m convinced that anyone who thinks otherwise is a loony.

[Charlie_Jack]

@jimipresley

FFS, Charlie Jack! Stop playing god. . . .

OK, jimipresley.

[bob]

@Fortigurn

[quote=“bob”]I realize that people of like minds often desire, sometimes even need, a place to interact free of conflict or criticism from the outside. Obviously though the religion and spirituality thread isn’t that place and it is hard to imagine why it woud suddenly become that kind of place all of a sudden because TC labelelled a thread “Happy Easter.”

You’re correct. This forum isn’t that place, and it didn’t suddenly become that place just because TC labeled a thread ‘Bless you on Easter’.

I understand that moderators do an important job keeping at least a portion of the stupid crap people post off the main threads. I understand that a lot of the asinine stuff the anit-religion sector throws up definitley falls into the category of stupid crap. However, the point MT made wasn’t stupid crap, it wasn’t mindless heckling. It was rather a clever bit of rhetoric that went straight to the heart of the issue.

And he was invited to repost it in another thread.

Outside a church, a psychiatric hospital maybe, or perhaps a funeral parlour nobody should be required to endure a phrase such as “the resurection of christ” without the FREEDOM to respond to it critically. Not a chance.

In this forum, no one is required to endure it either.

(BTW, I am not even trying to be pissy. You asked what I wanted and I gave an honest answer. I just happen to have strong values when it comes to this.)

bob the only problem here is that you desperately want to be persecuted by religious people, and since religious people have consistently refused to do so, you have to pretend that it’s actually happening when it isn’t. I don’t mind you doing that, as long as you cease the false accusations that this in any way reflects the reality of what happens in this forum.

@bob

1) How many of the belivers here actually believe, for example, that Christ literally died a biological death and then came back to life some days later?

I do.

@bob

2) How many of you are involved in promoting Christian belief in Taiwan? Recently there seems to be a surge in interest and I wonder who is behind it.

I am so busted! Whenever someone comes to our church asking us to explain our beliefs, I shamelessly answer their questions. I take full responsibility for all recent conversions anywhere on the island in the last 30 years, especially of people I have never met.[/quote]

Fortigurn. Gosh I hope you are not a psychologist. I don’t want to be persecuted by religious people. What I want is to be NOT persecuted by religious people, and for the most part I am not. What I also want though is the more or less complete freedom to respond rationally to anything that strikes me as being crazy. If you are actually interested in the dynamics behind that I suppose I can tell you that I feel that I have spent all together too much of my life having the truth dictated to me by people who didn’t know what the trust was and weren’t interested in anything I might have to say about it. I have enough insight to see that that is the psychological dynamic behind what I sometimes do (force issues through to their logical conclusion).

This thing started when a directive was sent to moderators (I believe it was to religion and spirituality moderators only - correct me if I am wrong) that they tighten up, make a better effort to maintain quality on the forum. As a direct result of that a perfectly rational post was made in the Easter thread and it was tempted. There was no need for him to start another thread. A few pages into that new temped thread it was closed and with quite a dismmissive tone as well.

Slippery slope I think.

I wasn’t rying to “bust” you on anything. I was just curious whether or not you were one of the people trying to spread the word. Someone obviously is.

[Fortigurn]

@bob

I don’t want to be persecuted by religious people. What I want is to be NOT persecuted by religious people, and for the most part I am not.

Then stop complaining when people fail to persecute you.

What I also want though is the more or less complete freedom to respond rationally to anything that strikes me as being crazy.

You already have that, right here.

If you are actually interested…

Not really. What I’m interested in is the dynamics which make you complain when you get exactly what you want. What can you tell me about those dynamics?

This thing started when a directive was sent to moderators (I believe it was to religion and spirituality moderators only - correct me if I am wrong) that they tighten up, make a better effort to maintain quality on the forum.

Let me correct you; it was sent to all moderators, and it was a request that all in all parts of the forum be more courteous, and that moderators be more strict on discourteous posts. That’s it.

As a direct result of that a perfectly rational post was made in the Easter thread and it was tempted.

It was temped for being impolite, as was explained. It failed even according to the standard forum guidelines, let alone the ‘new directive’.

There was no need for him to start another thread.

There was if he wanted to repeat it. Clearly he didn’t.

A few pages into that new temped thread it was closed and with quite a dismmissive tone as well.

A few pages being 10 pages. So what?

Slippery slope I think.

Slippery slope to what? Again, please describe why you are complaining about the refusal of religious people to persecute you. That’s all I’m asking here. Anything else, take it back to the Feedback forum as Maoman has asked.

I wasn’t rying to “bust” you on anything. I was just curious whether or not you were one of the people trying to spread the word. Someone obviously is.

I have noticed the thousands of new Christians in Taiwan myself. Or is it millions?

[jimipresley]

@Got To Be Kidding

I think that I’ve turned into a fanatic. I’m a fanatic about liking people without worrying about whether they are right or wrong. I’m into being a blessing to the people around me. I want something good to come out of everywhere I go, and everything that I do.

One of the most beautiful things I’ve ever read on the forums. :bravo:

[bob]

@Fortigurn

Let me correct you; it was sent to all moderators, and it was a request that all in all parts of the forum be more courteous, and that moderators be more strict on discourteous posts. That’s it.

Somoebody “quoted” that directive in the context of this whole “Easter” issue. My recollection (perhaps gleaned from the fact that it was posted in one of the Easter threads) is that it was directed towards religion and spirituality moderators specificallly. If you can find and link to that post and it shows that it ISN’T directed at forum moderators specifically I’ll admit that I was gasp* “wrong.” If you can’t find it, or if in fact it was flamed, well… Let’s say I am not anymore convinced that your memory isn’t any less selective that mine.

I did find this…

viewtopic.php?f=110&t=98038&hilit=bullshit

You have to scroll down to maoman’s post. It is definitely indicative of a tone, a direction, and one that you are now denying.

[Fortigurn]

@bob

Somoebody “quoted” that directive in the context of this whole “Easter” issue.

Yes, because it was relevant.

My recollection (perhaps gleaned from the fact that it was posted in one of the Easter threads) is that it was directed towards religion and spirituality moderators specificallly.

Your recollection is wrong. Given the fact that you haven’t even read the post (because it was posted in the private moderator’s forum), this is hardly surprising. Your recollection of a post you’ve never read is likely to be inaccurate.

If you can find and link to that post and it shows that it ISN’T directed at forum moderators specifically I’ll admit that I was gasp* “wrong.” If you can’t find it, or if in fact it was flamed, well… Let’s say I am not anymore convinced that your memory isn’t any less selective that mine.

You have PM.

[quote]I did find this…

viewtopic.php?f=110&t=98038&hilit=bullshit

You have to scroll down to maoman’s post. It is definitely indicative of a tone, a direction, and one that you are now denying.[/quote]

The only post from Maoman in that link is this. Exactly what ‘tone’ and ‘direction’ does it contain that I’m supposed to be denying? I suspect you had another post in mind. Regardless, the two threads here and here contain exactly the completely uncensored and unrestricted criticism of religion which you repeatedly claim does not exist on this forum because it’s not allowed. I don’t know how you’ll reply to this post, because it’s in a thread you claim doesn’t exist.

[bob]

I’m not claiming that people don’t have the right to criticize religion on this forum. I am claiming that there appears to be movement towards restricting that right and that temping MTs post was an example of that. That’s it. Our point (I think I can say ‘our’ point) is that we believe that we should be able to interupt the standard narrative almost anytime because the standard narrative lends a sense of normalacy to what is essentially a set of delusions. It might be interpruted as rude by some people but it is considered essential to others. Recently I have had several Taiwanese people talk to me about religious matters, and in a friendly way, and the first thing I ask them is if they are crazy. You actually “believe” that stuff!?!? I get the distinct impression that they have never quite heard the line of reasoning that I about to share. They never heard it because out of politeness and respect, in this culture, people don’t make a “regular habit” of questioning religion. Two hundered TONS of ghost money is burnt (more like smoldered) every year in this country.

Anyway, there was another post up from somebody else who claimed that they knew what the new direction was but that post seems to have been deleted.

The PM maoman send you was perfectly reasonable if you ask me, but it wasn’t the one that somebody else claimed to have recieved. You are the only moderator on this thread (I now realize) so it is pretty easy to conclude that nobody else got a message related to all this and that the original poster was some nut trying to qute messages that were never actually sent. It’s possible.

Can you access deleted posts? By now you might have forgotten the whole thing.

[Fortigurn]

@bob

I’m not claiming that people don’t have the right to criticize religion on this forum. I am claiming that there appears to be movement towards restricting that right and that temping MTs post was an example of that.

Well bob I’m sure I can rely on you to let me know if it actually happens. I’ll be waiting.

Our point (I think I can say ‘our’ point) is that we believe that we should be able to interupt the standard narrative almost anytime because the standard narrative lends a sense of normalacy to what is essentially a set of delusions. It might be interpruted as rude by some people but it is considered essential to others.

You are able to. I realise I am going to have to keep saying this because it’s not what you want to hear, but I’ll keep saying it anyway.

Recently I have had several Taiwanese people talk to me about religious matters, and in a friendly way, and the first thing I ask them is if they are crazy. You actually “believe” that stuff!?!? I get the distinct impression that they have never quite heard the line of reasoning that I about to share. They never heard it because out of politeness and respect, in this culture, people don’t make a “regular habit” of questioning religion. Two hundered TONS of ghost money is burnt (more like smoldered) every year in this country.

Clearly the only answer is violence. You must beat them with a stick.

Anyway, there was another post up from somebody else who claimed that they knew what the new direction was but that post seems to have been deleted.

Sure they did bob, then Santa came and took the post away, didn’t he? The best form of evidence is that which doesn’t exist; its absence is proof of the conspiracy!

The PM maoman send you…

It was not a PM he sent me. As I have told you more than once, it was a post in the private moderator’s forum to all moderators. I’m glad you thought it was reasonable.

Can you access deleted posts? By now you might have forgotten the whole thing.

I have no idea and I don’t care in this case because it’s irrelevant. Your attempt to appeal to posts which even you acknowledge don’t actually exist is not particularly convincing, and I have no desire to look for posts which don’t exist. Are you done using this as the Feedback forum?

[bob]

Yup

(but no, I didn’t say they didn’t exist, I said they were deleted)

Time to go out. It’s Saturday Night!