The narratives about Trump thread.


#681

Funny how they made obama leave board from the ass of airplane last time, and his respond was genious saying usa delegetion is so huge, many countries can not handle it.
While trump like the pump around him, he gave a lot of face to CCP saying they did best for interest of chinese people, while trading with usa. The real meaning was, china did so well and easy in the past, cause west was naive, not cause chinese leaders are so good.
I think both president did well, it shows soft power of USA. Imagine a non chinese han face ever running a china, or instead imagine a clown running china. Country would collapse inside, meanwhile life goes on in america like nothing happens. What an country.


#682

Is this a generational thing? I feel like so many Americans don’t know jack shit about the constitution and what it actually says. I can’t tell you how many times people think freedom of speech is saying anything they want without repercussions from other people or private entities like businesses. Sadly, I blame the culture of parents who don’t put the value of real education on their children, and the educational system being unable to teach kids. Most native US citizens probably would not pass their own citizenship test…there were so many times in class from high school up that I knew more about the US than my peers. Let alone asking them anything about the rest of the world.


#683

I think you demonstrate very well your conclusion about shutting down hate groups is (although Im sure you do so with the best intentions in the world ) is a slippery slope with respect to Milo.

He is repeatedly called Alt right, it doesnt matter how many times he says he is not, doesn’t matter how many times he says he hates them and they hate him. The very next interview they will state “you are the leader of the Alt Right?”

You say he is a supporter of the Golden Dawn, I have never heard of them and I have never heard Milo mention them, if they are indeed anti gay and some ultra right wing nationalist party, I find it very unlikely Milo would be an ardent supporter of theirs, the one thing he is not is stupid. So, Im going to ask you to back up this claim, please.

You also said he is supportive of man/boy love. He is not, he once joked inappropriately in reference to an experience of his when he was a boy and was a victim of such behavior, he has since on many occasions apologized and made it abundantly clear he does not in any way condone such behavior.

But you are very aptly demonstrating how easy it is to just make up some shit about a person or group of people and then claim to be righteous in shutting down whatever they have to say ( even if the topic is unrelated) on the grounds of “hate speech is not free speech”.

You can do this to anyone, hate speech is so wide and undefined, you can shut anyone down on this basis, especially if you trawl though every comment they have ever made in their entire life, and doubly so if you take what they said out of context or just make shit up.


#684

Allowing “hate speech” is precisely what differentiates freedom of speech from fake, Soviet-style “freedom of speech.”

“If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other it is the principle of free thought — not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.”
— Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., U.S. Supreme Court justice


#685

But he did call himself alt-lite, didn’t he? (And that English friend of Mr. Jones called him alt-right iirc.) I think the general public can be forgiven for not figuring out all these weird new concepts as fast as they emerge, just like those new pronouns that aren’t in any major dictionaries yet.

The quote that goes something like I would rather live in Hillary’s hell and be famous than live in Donald’s paradise and be a nobody, was that fake news?

You could at least offer us a potato. :potato:


#686

Seems you would like him to be Alt-Right, whatever that is. I think it was when Hillary Clinton was going to do a speech on it I looked it up, it seemed to be ultra right wing white supremacy type of group anti gay anti all the things you expect from these despicable groups.

Then In Hillarys speech she calls Breitbart and Milo Alt-right and that prompted me to read an article by Milo where apparently he provides a guide to the Alt-Right, which was basically equating it to 4chan and the other chans, giving it a much broader span and perhaps on that basis at the time would have said he was Alt-Lite. Since that time it seems to have gone back to the idea its just Nazi’s and white supremacists to which Milo has flatly rejected that his ideologies are at all alike.

I have to say that speech by Hillary was one of the most bizarre of all from the election last year, going on about green cartoon frogs called pepe being the symbol of the Alt-Right and Vladamir Putin was even dragged into it at one point. Giving rise to this meme, which I may have posted before right after Hillarys explanation of what apparently the Alt-Right is.

Don’t know, I never heard that before. My impression and probably shared by Milo and the likes of Julian Assange is that they would have rather spent an eternity in hell rather than live in a world where Hillary reigned. So, kind of doubt he said that, but I may be wrong.


#687

You are right to call me on this. The Golden Dawn, as I mentioned, is an ultra-ultra-nationalist Greek political movement that has, to date, won seats in the Greek government. One of its MPs is actually in prison on graft charges. Hey, it is Greece. A country that if they started rumblings (and they have) about leaving the EU and the common market as a whole, well, I would just kick them out as being more hassle than what they are worth.

On his Twitter, Milo spoke highly of the group vis a vis the whole rise of the right in Europe and Brexit. While not openly endorsing the group, he favored their message. His Twitter has long been cancelled, so no trace remains (lucky him, unlucky me) but by the all-knowing AmonRa, he said it.

RE Milo and pedophilia. Whether his comments were meant to come out as a joke, I cannot find it. He did reference Father Michael and blow job perfection, to be honest that made me chuckle. But, he attempts to redefine pedophilia as only finding non-sexually mature children attractive. You can find that here.

The slippery slope.

You and I and everyone else has the right to say they hate whatever ethnic group comes to mind and for whatever reasons. You have the right to say you are better than me due to ethnicity or whatever. All that is fine. Don’t care. Can even do it publicly, since there are no federal laws banning it. And neither should there be. But…well, three buts actually.

If Dick Spencer is spewing forth his aryan bullshit, that is fine. When he talks about ethnically pure America, that is OK. When he talks about methods to achieving said purity, then we enter a gray area. What happens when someone picks up on this? What happens when words become actions? Once the genie is out of the bottle, it will be near impossibly to put it back.

Maybe some people think that is still protected under the guise of “expression.” And that is fair. But, the reaction to all this would also be protected under that argument. As I mentioned, the protestors in Berkeley who were able to shut down Milo and Coulter appearances, were exercising their freedoms. No? How so?

Finally, free speech only exists in terms of the big bad federal government, not private organizations. As mentioned, the market place controls what it will allow to be spewed forth. There can be no government protection from that.

But what about the cake people and same-sex marriage issue? That is not protected as, and this is tricky, they are opening themselves up to the public and offering a service to the public. That is there license. They have to make all services equally available to the public. How does FB et al get away with banning what they term hate-speech? They are not open to the public. You have to be a member.


#688

Here is this little nugget. Written by Balki and someone else.

Now I have to clean myself in the cleansing power of fire. Ugh.


#689

The ones protesting peacefully, of course that’s their right. The ones hitting people over the heads with bike locks and rioting were behaving like fascists, I really don’t care what they call themselves, resorting to violence, intimidation and threats of violence to silence people who are saying something that you don’t like is fascist behavior.

The MSM by the way really need to take an honest look at themselves, because during all last year when violent protesters turned up and started beating up anyone who turned up to the rally. They should have condemned such acts immediately, “if you support Hillary or Bernie don’t go to a Trump rally” would that have not been the responsible thing to say? They did the opposite, interviewing some of these agitators on TV as if they were heroes. Even blaming Trump for them turning up to Trump rallies and the cause of their violence was a valid reaction to Donald Trump,

I miss the days when the left were hippies, smoked a joint, got high on magic mushrooms, even made more sense then.


#690

I’m not sure I remember any media getting behind Sanders. They were all pretty much in the Clinton camp.

If you talk MSM, you’ll have to include the right as well, since they are mainstream. Hell, Fox touts itself as America’s number one source for news.

That last bit I can get behind! Everyone just needs to pass a blunt and hang at a taco stand, and all will be right with the world.


#691

If your version of the truth can’t compete with racial supremacy and fascism — or even Falun Gong and the Dalai Lama — in the free marketplace of ideas it isn’t the fault of the free marketplace. It’s the fault of your ideas and history clearly shows that all the censorship and righteous violence in the world won’t be enough to save them in the long run.


#692

To be fair, Berkeley has a tradition of being super, shall we say, responsive to rightwing politics. Little has changed since the heyday of the anti-war, anti-Nixon days. I find it hard to believe the organizers or promoters for Milo and Coulter, et al would not have been aware of the hornets nest they were smacking with their stick.

I am reminded of a story I read from Robert Young Pelton about a group of girls who were in Mali and decided they wanted to wear slinky tank-tops and shorts to walk around in. He warned them that in a conservative Muslim country, that may not be the best thing to do. They ignored him, and a few minutes later he had to rescue them from the mob of people who were throwing rocks and cursing at them.

Milo, Ann, or any rightwing demagogue going into Berkeley is akin to Paris Hilton walking through the streets of Riyadh or Taliban-era Kabul, buck naked with anti-Islamic messages written on her body. Even I am not so stupid as to go to places in the deep South, like AL, MS, and LA and start spewing pro-Obama, hell pro-diversity propaganda and expect to make it out alive.

[IMHO the only place worth going to in the America South is Miami. Although it would help to speak Spanish, French, or Yoruba.]


#693

Iirc the Library of Congress owns a copy of every tweet ever tweeted. I can imagine deleted tweets of the 2010’s making a fabulous coffee table book a century from now… :grin: (To say nothing of deleted Forumosa posts! :astonished:)


#694

I don’t have strong feelings about the man, but a quick look at Wikipedia suggests his denials need to be qualified with except for the time he…

I’ll post the “famous” quote if I see it again.


#695

Turns out that Berkeley, the “birthplace of the modern free speech movement,” wasn’t the birthplace of free speech at all but rather the fake, Soviet-style version…


#696

You know, those elitist university professors do not allow Wikipedia to be used as a source.

That said, I never said Berkeley was the birthplace of anything. I only mentioned it is rather reactionary to rightist politics, among other things.

It is looking more and more that rightist claims that free speech is under fire is another false flag, similar to how they played the gun debates of the 80s to portray the evil big bad government from coming to take your guns. Nearly 30 years on, here we are. AS an aside, apparently not happy with results, the NRA has stepped up its game.

There is no government suppression of FoS. Period. If you can find recent examples of the federal government restricting, or attempting to restrict the speech of citizens, and if you can lay them out using neutral sources, then lets see it.

FoS, from a federal standpoint, was a live and well in the Obama era. The Westboro people know that all too well. They were allowed to procede with their protests, and met steady opposition from the public as well. They even won a case where a father sued them for distress. Adding insult to injury, they sued the father! [Snyder v. Phelps]

Ah, but I can give you examples from the state level. Wyoming and Idaho have laws on the books that prohibit the reporting and/or photographing of private activities on public lands. (WY - data tresspass law, ID - ID Code 18-7042) and other “ag-gag” style laws in other states.

Orange blossom in chief also continues his war on the freedom of the press.


#697

Any rational person knows why WP is unreliable, but you don’t need to get all No Wikipedia for you! on us. I would, however, like to ask @politbureau to try harder.


#698

It’s not unexpected to see the left push back against the narrative they are violent, aggressive and use intimidation tactics to shut down free speech. For sure these are the actions of a few and as such not representative of the left as a whole, but the MSM failed to condemn these acts and that points to much more than the fringe lunatics.

How the Democrats view themselves is becoming a very different impression of how Republicans view them. Pro illegal immigration, anti strengthening the boarders, Pro Sanctuary cities, anti voter ID laws, Pro more refugees, Anti American in terms of flag, anthem, statues, 1st and 2nd amendment, pro BLM and increased racial tensions.


#699

Everyone is being lead astray by leaders that take advantage of people’s fear. The anger and violence are secondary emotions to fear and political leaders, the media, are all cashing in on it. Some fears are understandable from fear of opening boarders and losing jobs turning into hatred of immigrants and worse, biogetry of other races. Some are in fear of losing some of the social progress we saw, perfectly understandable seeing marches of people screaming blood and soil. It’s easier to turn to the more extreme of each side these days than sit and try to understand what’s happening. Things don’t look good. And I’m not sure if it’s completely trumps fault. But his presidency has been really turbulent. And I don’t think you can say he’s not at all to blame for some of the issues completely blaming people against him. He has the ability to at least rein in some of what’s going on. But I don’t know if he doesn’t want to, isn’t capable of doing or just enjoys it.


#700

Of course the msm condemn Antifa and so on, just not vocally and constantly enough to satisfy rightish people. It’s the flip side of Donnie condemning Nazis and so on but not vocally and constantly (and sincerely?) enough to satisfy leftish people.

As for Paul, he has denied the incident was about landscaping (as everyone in the neighborhood seems to think), but I see no source for his supposed claim that it was political, whereas the other guy has denied it was political.