The problem with South Africa

Politics International Politics
1

[quote=“bismarck”]

A sad day for South Africa and South African rugby. When will people wake up and realise what a total fuck up that place has become when women get raped randomly, toddlers have their throats cut and not even famous black celebrities (remember, Lucky Dube was killed last year) and sports figures are safe from the wanton and out of control violence in the country?[/quote]

When will people wake up you ask? Hopefully at the ballot box but I am not optimistic. :laughing: Mandela was a terrorist, Mbeki rejects medical realities, and Zuma is an alleged rapist. When you have such poor quality leaders and such past behaviour is tolerated and even celebrated in the case of Mandela, it rubs off on the people. Give me Pik Botha or DeKlerk any day of the week! :laughing: Mistakes were made by continuing apartheid, but apart from that, theleaders before Mandela (Botha, DeKlerk) generally followed evidence based policies. :laughing:

Sorry, but I think they’ll be a lot more of these type of obits.

2

[quote=“ChewDawg”][quote=“bismarck”]

A sad day for South Africa and South African rugby. When will people wake up and realise what a total fuck up that place has become when women get raped randomly, toddlers have their throats cut and not even famous black celebrities (remember, Lucky Dube was killed last year) and sports figures are safe from the wanton and out of control violence in the country?[/quote]

When will people wake up you ask? Hopefully at the ballot box but I am not optimistic. :laughing: Mandela was a terrorist, Mbeki rejects medical realities, and Zuma is an alleged rapist. When you have such poor quality leaders and such past behaviour is tolerated and even celebrated in the case of Mandela, it rubs off on the people. Give me Pik Botha or DeKlerk any day of the week! :laughing: Mistakes were made by continuing apartheid but apart from that these ex-leaders generally followed evidence based policies. :laughing:

Sorry, but I think they’ll be a lot more of these type of obits.[/quote]

I think Mandela lost some of his elder statesman/freedom fighter cred when he proclaimed the Spice Girls his heroes. His ex-wife didn’t do him any favors with the past kidnappings and that recent interview.

3

When will people wake up and realise that it will take years and years to undo the ruthlessness and wrongs of the apartheid regime.
Restrict certain races from a proper education for years, and what do you expect?

The problem was not started by the current leaders, but those with no morals or respect for human rights. How does it go . . . ? You make your bed, now lie in it :slight_smile:

NB: " not even famous black celebrities (remember, Lucky Dube was killed last year) and sports figures are safe from the wanton and out of control violence in the country? "

That is an outright racist comment, what makes a black man immune from violence? are you implying that ALL crime is committed by black people? Also, are you implying that crime is never committed on a person of the same race?
Please kindly explain to me what race has to do with crime?

4

Right on! How come the white media never report on all the WHITE people who participate in gang-rape and baby-rape?

And don’t give me none of that “violent crimes are disproportionately committed by blacks” racist crap. I don’t care what kind of facts and figures you have behind it–that kind of talk has no place in civilized* discussion. Besides, we have to ask to what extent white people have brought this on themselves through their role in perpetuating racism, imperialism, and capitalism.

*(When I say “civilized” I in no way wish to offend anybody who comes from a non-Western society with a different paradigm of what is “civilization.”)

5

I think Mandela was a great man. He used or advocated violence to help SA blacks out of apartheid, just as the yanks did against King George. But when he got power, he was magnanimous and had the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He inspired the world with his example. That guy had brains, balls and heart. Anyone who idly dismisses him has a worldview that is dismally lacking in depth or soul. :2cents:

But I suppose you would have preferred Newt Gingrich! :laughing:

6

I do believe that when the disporportionate arrest records for Black youth and drug use are removed, we get a bit closer to parity. After all, if the statistics are to be believed, whites use drugs in far greater proportions but are not arrested for the same. That said, Black educational achievements are dismal and this can be attributed to the ridiculously high single parent rates. Not good for familes. Not good for achievement. That said, with the currently fast rising Latino and White single parent rates… the unfortunate result may be a more equitable rate of crime but at the higher not lower rates. What cannot be erased though is the high murder-violence rates outside drug arrests and usage. There, Black achievement is glaringly high and single parent familes and the destruction of the Black family by well meaning and aren´t they always? welfare policies is a cause of head hanging that should make every liberal quail before ever pointing the finger at any other political group for failed policies.

7

Spend a night on patrol in a high crime area. Or even better, three years on a gang task force. I don’t want to get into the race thing, or the lack of family structure in certain ethnic cultures. But, we didn’t arrest too many of one ethnic bearing culture as we did of the other two. It is what it is.

8

The lack of family structure in certain ethnic cultures? I don’t think there is a single ethnic culture that exists in an au naturel state that has a lack of family culture.

But if you colonize and oppress people for centuries and feck with their culture and society than yes you can get some scary results.

9

And here is where we part company. The most oppressed peoples do not necessarily suddenly ditch their family structures.

There is a lot of sensitivity show to the indigenous and African cultures that is not warranted in my view. Ditto to the Muslims and Middle East. Choose your standards and then stick with them regardless of which ethnic group is involved and then I think that you are being the fairest and least racist. Special circumstances and loopholes for special groups… not the way to go… educational standards should be high for all, expectations should be high for all and endless assistance should not be allowed.

10

[quote=“BigJohn”]

But if you colonize and oppress people for centuries and feck with their culture and society than yes you can get some scary results.[/quote]

Some European countries with financial troubles at the moment (e.g., Italy, Spain etc.) should also blame slavery as the source of all their problems too then, right? Furthermore, along with the slavery issue, failed welfare/bloated safety net policies in the EU have created networks of dependency with Europe’s swollen underclasses that is similar to the US’s “Great Society” hangover. :laughing: Furthermore, even in model Northern Europe :laughing: , lots of children aren’t being reared by cohesive family units with more children in Norway born outside marriage or reared in broken families (including that crazy person that attacked that youth camp a few months ago) than in stable family units. UK neighbourhoods are full of working-class single mothers on the dole. The UK welfare benefits are outlandish (up to 40,000 pounds/year for doing nothing if you have over 10 kids) and the well paid professional poverty activists/social workers are only happy to advocate on their behalf to milk the system.

Now I understand why Lee Kuan Yew called Europe a place full of museums and high-price real estate, but not economic activity. Blaming and handouts is not the way to go!!!

Given the the slavery issue, broken families, and economic disadvantages that can only be solved by 'pissing away" large amounts of public money, maybe everyone on Forumosa should be extra-sensitive when dealing with Europeans! :laughing: :laughing: :roflmao:

11

Should this thread title be “insert whatever hodge podge pet theory that does not have the barest connection with the original thread title” ?

There’s no black race or white race anyway if you actually stop to think for a second. I fail to see the connection between a Zulu, Nigerian, Jamaican or Tanzanian and even within those definitions you have massive difference in tribal behavior, class and societal values.

Each country and society should be judged on it’s own merits and blame culture does nothing to advance any society. Fix the problems of the present not the past.

12

That’s so true. Did you know that humans share 95 % of our DNA with chimpanzees? I mean, here we are throwing around loaded terms like “human” and “chimpanzee,” but when you get right down to it, NEITHER OF OUR SPECIES REALLY EXISTS !!! Same with race. So it’s high time that we dismantle the bars that irrationally separate us from our brothers.

13

We have about 75% similarity to sea squirts, and about 50% similarity to bananas too. So let’s celebrate ALL life, even that from New Zealand, and just forget about South Africa.

14

Time to get hammered for sounding like a racist…

Race has nothing to do with anything.

Culture has everything to do with everything.

You cannot blame oppression for the lack of family structure, education and acheivement.

Want proof? Look at the Jews…had it JUST as bad (perhaps worse?) than anyone and for a MUCH longer period of time (lets say at least 1500 years of oppression).

So why have the Jews (just one example, think of others if you like) been able to thrive, maintain a healthy family structure, sense of education and civilization?

Their culture. Even in the ghettos of Eastern Europe, midst pogroms, or during the Crusades midst slaughter, rape, kidnapping etc, even after (and DURING) the Holocaust (throw in countless other intensely difficult times of oppression) they had an advanced culture unique unto themselves. They had an educational and pedagogical system which they (created?) used since before the Roman conquest. They had their own language, religion, ideology, etc.

Unfortunately, most native peoples (those from Africa, the New World etc) had none of this. Many had not invented an alphabet! Most lived in small tribal communities which were at constant war with other tribal communities.

So when you take a group of people away from a tribal community, that has no writing system, no clear distinct self identity, none of the strong marks of culture, beat them down and oppress them, they have nothing to cling to in order to combat said oppression.

I think much of the “ethnic disparity” you see in South Africa and the United States is due to this. Unfortunately, these tribal cultures had simply not been advanced enough, culturally, to be able to withstand the horrors that they went through.

15

^ Truer words have never been spoken. The culture in general is one which does not lend itself to integration into the global community. For instance polygamy is accepted and in the Xhosa tribe it isn’t even frowned upon to force yourself upon a woman. Add to this the ‘lobolo’ system where women are bought for cattle and we have a very backward system and one in which it isn’t surprising that woman are treated poorly.

Then there is the fact that when the Dutch arrived in 1652, there was not even a codified legal system. This problem still exists today as we try to incorporate the indigenous uncodified law into the law as it stands which basically mimics all other developed nations. Think of a case where dissolution of marriage occurs and the redistribution of assets where a polygamous marriage was entered into. All this does not bode well for the family unit and where we are well aware of the negatives that would flow from this.

African leadership is one which lacks empathy and an insight into the inter-connectedness of everyone. Look at Zimbabwe. Yes, serve our ego by taking the farms from the white man and ultimately leaving everyone in the country in a far worse predicament. Look north to see dictators who use wealth not for the betterment of society, but for their own personal egoistic gain.

Culture is your operating system. This is not a race issue.

16

[color=#008000]MODERATOR’S NOTE: Interesting point. But do we take this discussion back to the thread title or split it off to form another thread?[/color]

17

South Africa is still … Africa!

18

Ah, so are you saying that that is its problem? :slight_smile:

19

I don’t know what the problem is, but there’s clearly a problem.

The government shoots into a crowd of protesting miners, killing 34. . .

and NOW they have the audacity to arrest 270 of the miners and charge them with murder??? :noway:

bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19424484

Lovely.