The Tragedy of Chinese Culture?

Arts & Sciences Culture & History
21

Little Buddha, I’ve actually thought about your situation a lot. I’ve even talked to my wife about the Forumosa guy who’s doing a graduate degree at NTU. A lot of us here have learned enough Chinese to function pretty well in a Chinese language environment, but have never taken it to the next level like you have. When I was a little younger, it never even occurred to me that I could go for a graduate degree in Chinese. The chance for that has already passed for me. However, I’m really glad that you are taking this challenge for two reasons. The first is that maybe a guy just like me when I was a little younger will see what you’re doing and will know what’s possible. Maybe ten years from now, there will be a lot more foreigners studying at NTU for graduate degrees.

My second reason for being glad about you studying at NTU is that maybe you’ll change some Chinese people’s ways of thinking. Maybe you won’t change that one PhD canidate’s mind, but perhaps you have affected other people in the class without even knowing it. I hope you won’t let a few ethnocentric assholes make you lose site of the fact that you’re slowly but surely making a difference in the way both Chinese and foreigners think about foreigners studying Chinese and China.

The next time some asshole tells you that you don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re a foreigner, please just try to remember that you are making a difference. Of course, if that doesn’t make you feel better, then you can just tell that asshole that no matter how much he thinks he knows about Chinese medicine or how long China’s history is, your country can still bomb his country back to the stone age a hundred times over. :smiling_imp:

22

Little Buddha, you are requesting something every Taiwanese never has–the freedom to confront seniors. It’s one of top stigmas of Chinese.

I will be grateful if anyone lend me the “stupid? Chinaman.” I am listening to an audio book “stupid white man” right now. I will compare them productively.

And hey men. Not you do know EVERY problems. Several decades and extensive study don’t mean a lot sometimes. People choose what they want based on their personalities and characters. I’ve live in Taiwan for 29 years, my understanding of it is still superficial and biased. Why do outsiders jump a conclusion so confidently?
Maybe you can offer a new and useful perspective, but speaking out blatantly blocks the possible communication.

Don’t always say locals treat westerners unfairly. They treat their compatriots more strictly. The same problems happened in the States, I keep a close watch to Amercain affairs. I appreciate any good influences from the West; Amercain society is more developed, but the Western(American) style causes a lot of problems too. Don’t be over confident.

Sorry if you feel offended after read my post. It’s difficult to show my points accurately online. I just want to say keep an attitude of compassion and patience when you are provoked by stupid Chinese.

23

What a load of nonsense. I don’t care how long you have lived in the US. You are Chinese, so you cannot possibly have any way of understanding Western culture.

24

The tragedy of chinese culture is, that for as long as any of them want to claim, have been stuck in a rut of their own making of

  1. Ignorance
  2. Racism
  3. Mercantilism
  4. Corruption
  5. Cultural elitism

When you have a small elite at all times telling you what you can see, think or do without any counter balancing opposing force, then you’re going to get these problems. The major problem is that I don’t see this going away. Revolutions are much easier, than facing your own shortcomings. Luckily they have mastered the art of muddling along before they finally implode. This is worst then having to deal with the deification of Sun Yatsen.

Exasperated by the tomfoolery of Chinese,
Okami

25

[quote]What a load of nonsense. I don’t care how long you have lived in the US. You are Chinese, so you cannot possibly have any way of understanding Western culture.
[/quote]

Sandman, so are you saying KimiChen is wrong? He may not understand western culture but he does have good points.

26

[quote=“thechu17”][quote]What a load of nonsense. I don’t care how long you have lived in the US. You are Chinese, so you cannot possibly have any way of understanding Western culture.
[/quote]

Sandman, so are you saying KimiChen is wrong? He may not understand western culture but he does have good points.[/quote]

Yeah I know. I was just in my usual clumsy way trying to illustrate the complete asshole-ness of LittleBuddha’s PhD colleague’s statement, as Kimichen seemed to be defending it.

Anyway, you can’t talk – you’re openly wearing a red beanie. :wink:

27

haha, whitemen from the land of Jim Crow laws and ex-slaveowners complaining about racist and ethnocentric Chinese Culture? A classic example of the pot calling the kettle black.

28

The thread is in danger of falling over the edge into pure racism here. Kimichen, I understand that you are Taiwanese…and somehow you feel the need to defend anything negative said about Taiwan. I suggest that you try to be objective. That means acknowledging both perspectives. The book you refer to is 'Ttupid White Men- written by a (stupid?) white man. The Ugly Chinaman is written by a Chinese man. Both are able to see the faults in their own culture and system.
There is no excuse for ‘‘you are a foreigner. You cannot possibly understand’’. I had that said to me all the time in Japan. I understood, i just didn’t AGREE.

29

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]Little Buddha, I’ve actually thought about your situation a lot. I’ve even talked to my wife about the Forumosa guy who’s doing a graduate degree at NTU. A lot of us here have learned enough Chinese to function pretty well in a Chinese language environment, but have never taken it to the next level like you have. When I was a little younger, it never even occurred to me that I could go for a graduate degree in Chinese. The chance for that has already passed for me. However, I’m really glad that you are taking this challenge for two reasons. The first is that maybe a guy just like me when I was a little younger will see what you’re doing and will know what’s possible. Maybe ten years from now, there will be a lot more foreigners studying at NTU for graduate degrees.

My second reason for being glad about you studying at NTU is that maybe you’ll change some Chinese people’s ways of thinking. Maybe you won’t change that one PhD canidate’s mind, but perhaps you have affected other people in the class without even knowing it. I hope you won’t let a few ethnocentric assholes make you lose site of the fact that you’re slowly but surely making a difference in the way both Chinese and foreigners think about foreigners studying Chinese and China. [/quote]

Jive Turkey: your comments just made my day, and made me feel a whole lot better. Thank you very much. :slight_smile:

And as for Kimichen’s comments, since I know him personally, I think maybe he didn’t elucidate his meaning as clearly as he wanted to. He often criticizes the problems in Taiwanese/Chinese culture and society, sometimes perhaps even more than we do. I think (correct me if I’m wrong) that he was just trying to play devil’s advocate, which is never really a bad thing. There are always two sides to every story, and many different ways of looking at it.

30

I think most of the problems with Chinese vis-a-vis Westerners stems from a “middle kingdom” mentality. If someone makes a comment about my culture I’ll listen because they might, as an outsider, have a different point of view. Always learn new things and your life will be great.

31

[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]
And as for Kimichen’s comments, since I know him personally, I think maybe he didn’t elucidate his meaning as clearly as he wanted to. He often criticizes the problems in Taiwanese/Chinese culture and society, sometimes perhaps even more than we do. I think (correct me if I’m wrong) that he was just trying to play devil’s advocate, which is never really a bad thing. There are always two sides to every story, and many different ways of looking at it.[/quote]

I have to admit that I overlooked the problems LittleBuddha encountered. After my reflecting, I think the problem is that as a Taiwanese, I can never taste the flavor of true respect and understand the spirits of human rights. It’s a bit embarrassing, and I should NOT defend Taiwanese & our behaviors too quickly.

32

so now you are discriminating against yourself!

33

OK OK OK! My English is not good enough to catch the anger, the feelings, and the injustice. :blush:

I listened to the story again by my hears, and I realize the problems. :cry:

34

too simply? that’s a declaration of war. i wouldn’t read too much culture into it. apparently he felt he was losing face in the discussion so he had to retreat from the intellectual arena into the comfort zone fallback, the bald stereotype insult. this represents quite a loss of face for him in itself, but an insult is an insult. forget the teacher or crying about racism. that will play into his hand by turning it into an us against them situation. bring the debate back to the intellectual ground where it seems you have the edge. now THAT will drive him insane. wait for the opportunity to turn the “wo xiangfa tai jiandan” line back on him.

35

Good advice, Daltonggang. I’m going to spend my winter vacation digging up as much research as I can on the issue at hand that there is no way that he could possibly dispute it … as well as another issue that they used the “you’re a foreigner, so you don’t really understand” statement when discussing a passage from the “Shishuo xinyu” … I believe (as do many, many other Sinologists) that this particular passage has homoerotic (not “homosexual”) undertones (or overtones!) … but for a Chinese to accept that two great literati like Ruan Ji and Ji Kang could possibly have had sexual relations with each other is just preposterous. I’ve already provided so much textual evidence on this debate, much more so than my classmates have ever done for some of the ridiculous interpretations they’ve come up with for other things, but they still refuse to accept it. It’s odd too, because my professor is very into my thesis proposal of homoeroticism in “Dream of the Red Chamber” … but on this and a few other instances (like the “Orchid Tower Pavilion” poems and preface), she can’t seem to accept it, despite the copious amounts of textual evidence for it. Oooooyyyyyyy … :unamused:

BTW, this time I was told that I think too simply, and at other times they tell me I think too much (like the aforementioned instance with Ruan Ji and Ji Kang) … I wish they’d make up their minds! :laughing:

36

[quote]
The Ph.D. student’s response (and it was angry, not meant to be in jest) was that “you foreigners can’t possibly understand about Chinese medicine, you think too simply.”[/quote]

It takes an idiot to be so narrow-minded.

It takes an even BIGGER idiot to believe that ONE idiot

37

you’re something of an expert on idiocy, huh lich?

38

Lich is the idiot king.

Give him the Village Idiot sign, please!

39

Then during the next class, should I make an issue out of it, saying how his comments were racist and that in today’s day and age, at such an “open-minded and liberal” school (their words) that this kind of crap can get spewed by a supposedly highly educated student? I’m just wondering whether I should drop it all together or complain to the teacher that his comments were completely out of line, especially in that setting.[/quote]

As a Chinese or Taiwanese, I would say make an issue out of it and help other students to understand racism issues. Most locals have no idea what it is.

40

I’m giving my opinion on this very late, 'cause I don’t often come into this forum, since my knowledge of Chinese/Taiwanese Culture & History is limited (though, maybe I’d learn more by coming here… hmmm… Catch 22???). Anyway…

I’d agree that the best thing to do is not make a big deal about it, with either the PhD (we all know PhD stands for Pile Higher and Deeper :laughing:) or the professor. As a few have said, he probably was embarassed for two reasons: 1. in general, he didn’t have an academic leg to stand on in supporting his arguments (especially knowing the professor agreed with you), and 2. a foreigner knew and understood more about his own culture than he did (I’ve had this happen to me and it is quite embarassing). So, he got defensive and, to save face, pulled out the “you couldn’t possibly understand” argument, which he figured would shut down the conversation.

This is fine, but my advice is not to bring up the subject or evidence yourself. I think that would look a bit too… oh, I don’t know what word I’m looking for… but, you might lose “face” yourself by seeming to be too concerned with what this guy said to you. I wish I could figure out how to explain my feelings/reasoning behind this advice better. I’d wait until the topic came up again… if it ever does.

However, please don’t expect that any new found evidence (textual, verified, or otherwise) will change his mind or behavior. If he was truly just embarrassed by being “caught in his ignorance” of the subject, and you throw more evidence and support for your point of view at him, he may become more embarassed and more defensive. So, even if deep down he knows you are right, he may never admit it in front of the class, or to you privately.

On the other hand, if he truly is just an ignorant, ethnocentric prick, all the evidence in the world will probably not change his mind. He, most likely, will always see you as the lower life form you are (i.e., foreigner) who can never understand the ways of the higher beings that inhabit this planet (i.e., Chinese/Taiwanese).

Prejudices are hard things to change… especially when they have been ingrained in us for so long by our society.

Just my NT$2…