Tips for learning Chinese (Part I)

Language Learning Chinese
41

Shengmar’s idea about a period of silence early on is an interesting one. I think tones and pinyin could be delayed slightly if something like a TPR approach was used in the very beginning so that learners could actually learn to say a few things before they go on to the orthography.

But in practice this will probably not work For one thing, it would encourage the many non-professional teachers of Chinese to induleg in one of their worst habits–mindless blithering instead of teaching.

Shengmar: I have a feeling that many people on this board learned their Chinese through a period of intensive study when they were not preoccupied with their jobs.

42

No!

Once you’ve picked up wrong tones and wrong pinyin, it’s almost impossible to reverse that[/quote]

Learning the tones and pinyin from listening a lot leaves no chance for learners to pick up wrong tones and pinyin.

43

No!

Once you’ve picked up wrong tones and wrong pinyin, it’s almost impossible to reverse that[/quote]
That’s a common belief, but an extremely exaggerated one. When people learn a new language, there are plenty of points of pronunciation and grammar that they just won’t get until their brains are ready. My wife (Cantonese is her 1st language) used to murder Guoyu when she spoke it. Audiolingual drilling with pinyin was no help in getting her to properly pronounce sounds like x-, zh-, ch-, and sh-. She is still quite horrible at reading anything rendered in pinyin. However, she has picked up x-, zh-, ch-, and sh- quite well during the year she has been working with mainlanders. She acquired these elements of the language when she was ready to acquire them. No amount of drilling or pinyin could have changed that. Believe me, I tried.

I learned Guoyu by drilling pinyin first. However, when I went on to Cantonese, I didn’t do it that way and still acquired pretty good accuracy (though not much fluency) in pronunciation. Granted, having learned Guoyu first I knew what to listen for, but IMO it is much better for a teacher to do oral drilling with TPR cues before showing students the word(s) in pinyin; keep in mind that the letters that represent some of Guoyu’s sounds can confuse a learner more than clarify it for him.

44

the letters that represent some of Guoyu’s sounds can confuse a learner more than clarify it for him.

This can’t be more true.

So the simpler, the better at the beginning stage.

Listen, listen and listen.

And then speak.

45

I think that it is very important from the outset to learn tone pronounciation and the phonetics rules that go with whatever system that one uses. Yes, tones are hard and you need a lot of practice befor e you start getting it right. I remember my first tone being a high pitched squeel and hated having to use it…but then later i became comfortable and settled into a more natural way of speaking. Initially i couldn’t very well distinguish between the 2nd and 3rd tones and using pinyin tone marks help that a lot.

46

[quote=“shengmar”]
To be conversational is a long way ahead.[/quote]
Coversational was what the questioner wanted, so that’s what I based my answer on.

[quote]As a matter of fact, I am very interested in “foreign language accquisition theories like the “silent period””

And I am trying to use it.

So I ask my student to speak much later after listening a lot.[/quote]

Be careful with that Shengmar. The silent period will only really be effective if the student is in a total-immersion environment. It’s generally a reaction to an entirely unfamiliar environment rather than a tool, although it is a valid method, when used right. Given that you state you’re in the UK, providing an immersive evironment for a large enough proportion of their time is going to be difficult. By not providing enough of a total-immersion environment, you run the risk of letting your students get lazy rather than learning through immersion.

And also don’t forget, what you’re teaching is “foreign language learning” rather than “acquisition”. It’s an important distinction to make, and can have an effect on the methods tha work the best.

47

[quote=“Tetsuo”]The silent period will only really be effective if the student is in a total-immersion environment. It’s generally a reaction to an entirely unfamiliar environment rather than a tool, although it is a valid method, when used right.[/quote]Not if it’s silent period as in Krashen’s use of the term. He’s famously NOT an immersion advocate, yet the concepts which surround his use of the ‘silent period’ idea are vital to the rest of his theory. By the way, the term at least in Krashen is not supposed to indicate some kind of enforced, rigid silence but rather the freedom for learners to respond using single-word answers or even some L1 until they have the confidence and capability to form phrases and sentences.

I worry that Shengmar, in his use of “lots of listening” as a method, may be trying to create a kind of immersive environment without due care to the comprehensibility of the material. While there are many questions which can be raised about Krashen’s theories, surely most teachers and language learners would agree that mere exposure to L2, with insufficient modulation of the material to enable comprehension, is at best an inefficient teaching method and at worst completely ineffective and disheartening. Rapid progress due to immersion as posited here;

[quote=“mesheel”]put yourself into a Chinese only speaking environment and you’ll learn fast[/quote]is unlikely unless the input is rendered mostly comprehensible in one way or another.

Krashen’s theories are pretty much summed up in this online book if anyone’s interested:
sdkrashen.com/SL_Acquisition_and_Learning/

48

“Practical Audio Visual Chinese” from Shi da is pretty good. The vocabulary is mostly stuff you will have to learn sooner or later anyway. Listen to it. Read it. Listen to it and read the Pinyin version at the same time. Listen to it and read the English version at the same time. After that listen to it again and again while doing other things like eating diner or taking a bath. The target language should be entering your ears 4-6 hours a day. Like Joe Sax says it is a lot better if you have some way to check on the meaning of what you hear. Vocabulary study, in context listening practice (which is why the visual aspect helps) and attempts at communication are the secrets to second language study.

49

Get a Chinese girlfriend/boyfriend who speaks no English - the sudden improvement is out of this world. After 2 years of lessons I had a vocabulary I could not use - 6 months with new friend I had no problems

50

Not everybody is into clubbing a potential partner on the head. I never understand how people can leap into a “relationship” when they can’t communicate other than playing charades.

51

I guess Matchstick-man addressed this to me - I had basic comunication skills - a close relationship made me confident to speak chinese anywhere - and expect people to understand me

I did not seek out this person with a plan - It just happened - At first she was very patient with my awful chinese

52

Fastest way = 24-hour immersion. Move in with locals who DON’T speak any English. Get a sig-O of same type. Turn on Chinese-language radio and TV, no English. Add conversation partners and/or 1-on-1 teacher to answer questions and decrease the frustration level.

I lived with non-English speaking locals here for 5-1/2 years, and it helped tremendously.

Good luck!

53

How long will it take for me to have a basic fundamental
chinese conversation if I put in a good effort. Also
what is the best way to learn Chinse, Flash cards,
Software, One on One, or Classes ? Thanks

54

Depends on you. I’d say a few months of hardcoreness (study and stuff.)

Take classes to at least get your tones and pronunciation right. Then my way was mass cramming of vocabulary and picking up grammar from hearing all the vocabulary I knew (I’ve also been in lots of classes.)

I used this for vocabulary: www.supermemo.com (for the Palm)

55

Rather than start my own ranting thread (again!) I used the search and posted here. I’m about halfway through the first semester of the beginners class at Shida. I think my teacher is good, my class has a healthy mix of nationalities, and I think I’m putting a lot of effort into learning what I’m supposed to be learning.

But I’m getting frustrated. I seem to be slipping, and there doesn’t seem to be any amount of work that I can do to catch up. If I was to rate myself, it would go like this (have never seen what my average mark is yet- I don’t know what’s up with that)

Reading - 95-100 %
Listening- 85- 95 %
speaking- 80- 90 %
writing- 60 %

  • and falling as time goes on and the books get more difficult.

This is what I do:

Class is in the morning at 8:10. Before that, I usually get about 20 - 50 minutes of review and/or preview in. I often use this time to practice writing.

Two hours of class, I feel pretty confident, and feel that my understanding of the grammar, reading and pronounciation is pretty good. I participate as much as possible, and try out as many different combinations of the lessons that we are learning as I can (stealing as much attention as I can). I often forget words or lessons from previous chapters, but usually recover them with little or no prompting. I think this is OK.

After class, I go down the street for a coffee, review the lesson and practice writing any new stuff we have learned. I often make up sample sentences or questions, and answer them. My teacher is very gracious in that she will mark a lot of stuff that she probably doesn’t have to, so I only give her about 10 percent extra than the assigned homework. If I don’t do this at the cafe, then I go home and do it.

At home, I alternate writing rows of characters with answering the questions in the workbook. I take frequent breaks to make tea, snacks, clean something, laundry, forumosa, etc. A break every 30 minutes or so. This might go on for a few hours. Then I take a big break (go for a bike ride or something), come back, and test my writing and recall.

I practice writing by either writing rows of characters or by self testing using supermemo or flashcards. I feel pretty confident after I have spent about a total of 8 freaking hours writing and my hand hurts. I self test by looking at the pinyin, English, or zhuyin of a word and then try to write it. I give myself a checkmark for yes and an x for no.when I get an x, I write it 5 times. I do this until I feel confident that I can get a good grade.

I occasionaly work in the evenings.

I test myself often. I review often. I often forget things from the previous chapters. This is very annoying. I can read everything, and listen and write pinyin and bpm for everything, but those f-ing characters are pissing me off. So many stupid mistakes.

My highest mark for the one dreaded test the teacher gives us is 80 percent. The test consists of her dictating a sentence that has all the stuff we should have learned for the chapter. We are to write the bpm, tone marks and characters. We only get points for writing all three without mistakes. I freeze every time, write weird, made up characters, forget them completely, and it sucks. Tones, understanding the sentence, and bpm is fine. I went home after one of these classes and went through my scrap paper pile just to see how many times I have written a particular character that I have frozen on. Over 150 times. I’ve never done anything in my life 150 times and not known it. My classmates regularily ace this test.

So, when it comes to the testing, I freeze and I can’t recall how to write the characters. I’m frustrated, so much that I couldn’t even finish the test today. I gave up. I was forgetting half of the characters that I knew last test.

What am I doing wrong? What am I not doing? I think I should be improving, not getting worse. I went to see the “extra help” teacher and she said I should study more, but gave me no tips. Useless. I’ve talked to some people about this problem and they aren’t doing even half of what I’m doing. If this goes on, by the end of the semester, I’m going to have to take it again. I have never put this much effort into something and felt like I was slipping so hard.

I want to be able to write the characters because I want to be able to communicate. Maybe I will pursue other interests later where I will use this knowledge. It’s there, and I want to learn it.

Any tips? the only thing I can think of is that I’m not sleeping enough.

56

It sounds like you’ve got the right attitude, canucktyuktuk. Diligence is very important. I think people vary in the rate they pick up Chinese for all sorts of reasons. I’m often half-asleep for my early morning class and that doesn’t help.
There are probably places you could streamline your study routine. Supermemo is great for remembering things long-term but I don’t think it’s good for cramming. I’ve never studied at Shi-Da but it sounds like cramming for tests brings success (in terms of grades) there. You say you’re in a culturally mixed class. I don’t know how well you know your classmates but they might have huge advantages you’re not aware of. Perhaps they’ve studied before in their home countries. Japanese students have a massive advantage with reading and writing characters and have probably had passive exposure to Chinese for many years. Other students may also have similar advantages. Try to find out more about what these super-students are doing, they might have a secret method or they might be tou1 tou1 yong4gong1 (secretly studious). Every little tweak to your study routine can help and often people who are on their third language or more have unconscious ingrained ways of learning that really help them, not to mention the confidence.
But if you don’t find any information that helps you get past this problem quickly, you still might suddenly find yourself a much better student a month or two months from now when things just fall into place and your diligence pays off and the differences between you and other students become smaller. Then people might start asking you what you do to stay up with the class.
Sorry I can’t give very specific help but keep up the work and try to hold on to and nurture the thing that got you started studying and made it fun to start with. Move away from the frustrating thinking.
And if you do find good solutions, please post them.

57

I think you are spending WAY too much time on writing characters. Talk to people more, read more, and don’t stress out on writing Chinese by hand. Even native speakers often have trouble these days now that everyone uses computers.

58

In my line of work (C->E translation), Chinese character writing is the least important skill of all. I use a computer for writing on the occasion when I need to write.

59

canucktyuktuk, Feiren and Chris are right, writing is not as important as before (even in English – note the demise of good penmanship and legible writing), but it doesn’t help the fact that you still need to pass those tests.

Try reading posts from this thread: chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=13198

The OP’s dilemma is pretty close to yours.

One post which I very much liked commented that writing out characters over and over again loses its effectiveness after the first few because your hand goes into autopilot and your brain disengages. Instead, try to write out the characters in your mind. This way, it keeps your brain engaged the entire time you are “writing” in your head. You may also find writing characters out in context helps retention more than brute force copying.

Try breaking characters up into their subcomponents (i.e. radicals) and really work hard at trying to recognize those subcomponents automatically. Make up stories, if you have to, for some of the characters.

One example is the character for “poor/destitute” – 窮. It looks complicated but it comprises of three parts – 穴 (cavity,cave,tunnel) on top, 身 (body) at lower left, 弓 (bend, bow) at lower right. How I remember this character is this – because you are poor, you have to live in a cave, which requires you to bend your body to get inside. The character for good, 好, can be thought of as a motherly figure (female 女) being good to her son (子). The sillier your stories the better you will remember it. When I taught my son the word for bed, 床, I told him that his bed is made of wood, hence the 木 in the middle; bed sheets go over the bed, which accounts for the 厂 that’s over the 木; and he sleeps on the bed sheet, which accounts for the dot on top of the 厂.

All of this requires you to at least memorize some basic components. Break it up anyway you see fit although starting off with the radicals approach makes sense to me. YMMV.

60

There’s a lot of good advice here. Before I go pay for the MRI on my head and a bucket of iv thorazine, I’m going to review again using some of the methods outlined. That other forum had a lot of interesting stuff in it. I guess I can make a table and include a field with my silly explanations as well. I’ll try it.

I understand a bit about radicals, but I haven’t been able to put much together with them in the short time I have been studying and the amount of characters (maybe 130) that I have learned. I see many similarities in some characters, but the one time I went for “extra help” the teacher just confused me even more. What I thought should be a “radical” was not, and a separate component was introduced instead. my regular teacher hasn’t really dealt with the subject (probably because it’s so goddamn fast and she doesn’t have time to) other than pointing out similarities between characters. I think it might be too early for me to be dealing with “radicals”. I really don’t know. What part of a character isn’t a radical?

I should point out that this test (25 characters) came after only 4 class days on this chapter. I took saturday night off from studying. We must be falling behind so in true Chinese fashion, we must go even faster.

It’s true, I have a lot (maybe too much) of emphasis on learning how to write. Well, I want to write. I’m being tested and marked on it, and I’m not in school so I can get mediocre grades. I’m taking time off of any serious work right now so I’m also going to apply for an ARC. Maybe later, when I have more definite ideas about my plans with this language, I’ll graduate to a newer computer and learn how to type it.

One of the things that might be helping the other students is the fact that they are a)roomates b)younger and recently graduated from college c) all friends tranferred from another college. Maybe they are just more in tune with the world of studying and retaining info. I haven’t studied for 10 years, and even that, I wouldn’t call academic studying. I coasted.

Thanks for the tips. I have to get back to work.