USA laws to be implemented in Taiwan! 121 questions for the Taiwan Government Concerning FATCA!

So technically, you could hold multiple accounts with the total of each account kept under $50,000 and this would not be reported by any of the banks. I guess that would be one way around it.

I keep my accounts under 10,000 at all times as well so that I don't need to report them when I file taxes. My husband keeps the in accounts under his name (he is British and does not hold a green card, residency, etc for the US). American spouses of Taiwanese could do the same.

I can’t wait till the day when I can renounce. As soon as I am settled in Europe somewhere when I semi-retire, I’m going to work on gaining citizenship wherever we are living and the tax issue is the main driver of that for me.

From articles I have read only three have mentioned PAST data to be collected. I read two banks complaining that they were asked to provide past data. Another article discussed the author’s opinion about this. His opinion was that most banks would balk about past data as was so much trouble to collect and would just claim their current customer database is not set up to pull out that data (which is the main trouble) or they just didn’t add such data (e.g. citizenship) into their database so simply cannot collect. So the author speculated that the IRS would not fine banks having this problem if they provided the required data going forward.

I guess I need to read the IGAs and see what the financial institutions agreed to.

A friend told me his swiss bank sent him a letter asking him to agree to provide all past data to IRS. I haven’t heard from him if he signed…

I am going to answer the last two posts in two different posts here, so look for your name. I wish Forumosa would bring back multi-quote! This copying and pasting stuff is getting old…

[quote=“Indiana”]So technically, you could hold multiple accounts with the total of each account kept under $50,000 and this would not be reported by any of the banks. I guess that would be one way around it.

I keep my accounts under 10,000 at all times as well so that I don't need to report them when I file taxes. My husband keeps the in accounts under his name (he is British and does not hold a green card, residency, etc for the US). American spouses of Taiwanese could do the same.

I can’t wait till the day when I can renounce. As soon as I am settled in Europe somewhere when I semi-retire, I’m going to work on gaining citizenship wherever we are living and the tax issue is the main driver of that for me.[/quote]

As I am not a lawyer or expert I cannot offer specific advice. However, what I can say is this so that there is no confusion. This is based on what I have read and seen and understood, if you want to know more you probably need to contact the IRS or review their website.

It is NOT 50,000 per account, it is 50,000 PER BANK. I am still trying to confirm this though, I seem to not be able to find a reference, I may again have been led to believe something wrong, but perhaps safer to limit it per bank, not per account.

Review this article: blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2014/ … committee/ I think I have posted it about 4 times in several threads.

Keeping your accounts under $10,000 only can avoid the bank sending your data to the IRS, it does nothing for FBAR. FBAR is aggregate. So if you 5,000 in one foreign account and 2,000 in another foreign account and 9,000 in another foreign account, you are over the 10,000 limit. You have to write ALL accounts on FBAR and submit it to the US Treasury. If you have not been doing this, you have violated FBAR and could be penalized to the streets or be put in jail. FEAR, that is what they want all of us to feel.

If your husband is a British citizen it is fine, however, their could come a day when the IRS asks you to provide proof of where your money went or how you got and at that point they may ask to see his accounts, yes you read that correctly. If you refuse, they will tax you on any income they think you are hiding.

[quote=“Flakman”]From articles I have read only three have mentioned PAST data to be collected. I read two banks complaining that they were asked to provide past data. Another article discussed the author’s opinion about this. His opinion was that most banks would balk about past data as was so much trouble to collect and would just claim their current customer database is not set up to pull out that data (which is the main trouble) or they just didn’t add such data (e.g. citizenship) into their database so simply cannot collect. So the author speculated that the IRS would not fine banks having this problem if they provided the required data going forward.

I guess I need to read the IGAs and see what the financial institutions agreed to.

A friend told me his swiss bank sent him a letter asking him to agree to provide all past data to IRS. I haven’t heard from him if he signed…[/quote]

Here is what I have found on this matter:

valuewalk.com/2014/03/manage … parations/ According to this article it appears I was led to believe something incorrect… the banks need to send the WHOLE of 2014 to the IRS next year, so even moving money around before July may not help… Depending on how Taiwan agrees to this regulation.

and
irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-13-43.pdf

It seems not at the beginning, but will do some retro searching for accounts over one million.

As far as software considerations, I think some banks can do it easily, just put in a date, and a citizenship and all the info appears. But I have no idea about this.

I have already decided that I am not signing anything new, if they want to close my accounts, I would like to see them try. We may actually be able to ban together to sue the banks if they do this, though under terms and conditions we probably cannot, but in this case they are discriminating against a specific group of people, we may have a case, I don’t know and nothing has happened yet, so speculation is kind of pre-mature. Though I do think come July when people start getting letters this thread is going to light up like a Christmas tree.

Yes, should be very interesting when Taiwan banks start asking for U.S. citizens to allow banks to pass information/data to IRS. Or will Taiwan banks just try to do so without asking permission from U.S. citizens? I think they would try but there are all of those green card holders to deal with. Since they don’t want to assist digging out all of those green card holders and Taiwanese dual citizens for the IRS, I think they will diligently support rooting us out.

The fun should start soon…

[quote=“Flakman”]Yes, should be very interesting when Taiwan banks start asking for U.S. citizens to allow banks to pass information/data to IRS. Or will Taiwan banks just try to do so without asking permission from U.S. citizens? I think they would try but there are all of those green card holders to deal with. Since they don’t want to assist digging out all of those green card holders and Taiwanese dual citizens for the IRS, I think they will diligently support rooting us out.

The fun should start soon…[/quote]

From what I understand is that they will just bundle them together if we disagree, but I think if the IRS comes back and wants more, the banks will just offer it to them. Which is technically illegal if the customer did not sign anything.

Those with Greencards are probably safe for the time being if they did not open any accounts with their US passport, and why would they if they are locals? Finding those 200,000+ dual citizens or greencard holders will be a huge task, that is until they implement FATCA and then report they are. I think many might lie on the application and say they are not US persons…

I suspect that people will not start being effected by this until the banks start asking questions, which they may not even do until later this year… But who knows… maybe we’ll get lucky and the whole thing will fall through… doubt it, but I’d like to stay somewhat positive.

Again those of you who have not signed up as a member to ACA, I urge you to do so as they need money to help fight things for us. www.americansabroad.org.

Thanks for your information. From the links you provided, does sound like no focus on pre-2013 and 2014 data. I hope that is the case. Perhaps the banks in previous articles were singled out for special treatment by IRS…like those Swiss banks.

I am really sick of IRS. I found out last week I broke another law by transferring too much money to my wife. I read previously spouses can transfer any amount to each other…but now I realize that applies to spouses who are both U.S. citizens. IRS has annual limit on how money can give your non-U.S. citizen spouse. Anyway, the IRS thinks we are all law breakers so guess if they create enough complicated, extremely invasive laws then they can eventually push us all into the IRS pit.

Interesting.

[quote=“Flakman”]Thanks for your information. From the links you provided, does sound like no focus on pre-2013 and 2014 data. I hope that is the case. Perhaps the banks in previous articles were singled out for special treatment by IRS…like those Swiss banks.

I am really sick of IRS. I found out last week I broke another law by transferring too much money to my wife. I read previously spouses can transfer any amount to each other…but now I realize that applies to spouses who are both U.S. citizens. IRS has annual limit on how money can give your non-U.S. citizen spouse. Anyway, the IRS thinks we are all law breakers so guess if they create enough complicated, extremely invasive laws then they can eventually push us all into the IRS pit.[/quote]

Perhaps we read them differently, but it seems to me when they first report accounts they will go back to January 2014 to December 2014 for first report. So even if Taiwan signs this in July that those accounts this year over 50,000 in January might be reported. I actually have no idea how each bank and how Taiwan is going to do this yet, there is so much confusion about this law it’s unbelievable. I just know if your accounts are kept under 50,000 that most likely your bank is not going to report the account. (account means per bank).

As per money limitations I forgot to ask my wife about this question a few days ago, I will ask her again and report here when I have the answer, however, I would recommend that you call the Ministry of Finance to obtain the exact numbers, that will be more accurate.

Yes, the IRS considers all of us guilty until proven innocent, it is the only government organization that has such a policy. FATCA is a draconian law that will have massive effects globally.

So tired of all of this crap. I cannot WAIT to get rid of my US citizenship. That will be the best day of my freaking life.

JeffG…regarding money transfer I am only referring to IRS rules. For Taiwan, we checked with tax office several times and while answers were sometimes different, the high level person we talked to said our money transfer from my U.S. bank account to my Taiwan bank account will not cause any problems like tax assessment.

Indiana…I never considered giving up my U.S. citizenship until the IRS started enacting global laws affecting my daily life which could fine me into poverty. I now remember some expat friends years ago telling me to just get “off the grid” completely. Well, now some of them will be successful and some will not. Now I think “off the grid” means giving up your citizenship.

[quote=“Flakman”]
Indiana…I never considered giving up my U.S. citizenship until the IRS started enacting global laws affecting my daily life which could fine me into poverty. I now remember some expat friends years ago telling me to just get “off the grid” completely. Well, now some of them will be successful and some will not. Now I think “off the grid” means giving up your citizenship.[/quote]

I feel the exact same way and I agree with you completely. I never thought about it until the laws started reaching further and further into my personal life and making me feel somewhat violated. I haven’t lived in the US in 18 years, never plan on returning to live there, and yet the laws are becoming more and more invasive and it does not sit very well with me. As an expat, how much I have and what I do with my money should not be the business of the US government. I am not benefitting from what tax dollars are spent on at home. I own no property there, hold no investments there, and basically have nothing to do with the country other than annual visits to my family. I can understand these laws applying to people living in the US with foreign accounts, but for expats they are nonsensical.

If I could give up my citizenship now, I would in a heartbeat. Sadly, I will need to wait until I retire to start working toward a different citizenship, which will be a number of years down the road. When I do, though, I am holding a massive party. You will all be invited. :slight_smile:

I wonder if a Republican presidency would make a difference when it comes to these laws.

We are in similar situation except I have some U.S. investments…which I am selling off. I am just sickened by this whole situation. My local Taiwan friends are just shocked our govt treats us this way.

Well, I have been abroad 25 years and thought one day might spent the winters in U.S. I like Arizona winters. Now my brother is super pissed to hear his younger brother might become a “foreigner” to escape IRS torture (he is basically a libertarian). I worry that might send him over the edge.

I find this interesting. This page from Hang Seng bank provides links to files regarding customers’ U.S. status. Seems they will ask for customers to explain why they are not U.S. citizens if they have U.S. address or were born in U.S. Well, that is part of what I saw…

bank.hangseng.com/1/2/fatca?WT.a … Lnk_1_8_EN

Your brother and my sister should get together. :laughing:

They Just. Don’t. Get. It.

My brother didn’t pay taxes for 3 years. Then one day a cheque bounced and brother called his bank to find out what happened. The bank told him that IRS took all of his checking account money. No one informed my brother…so he was a little unhappy.

That’s right, Yanks, if your Taiwanese wife or husband has assets totaling more than $10,000 and hasn’t reported them to the International Revenue Service she or he is a felon inder U. S. law now too.

That’s right, Yanks, if your Taiwanese wife or husband has assets totaling more than $10,000 and hasn’t reported them to the International Revenue Service she or he is a felon inder U. S. law now too.[/quote]

Been off here for a week too long it seems, but I had to jump in and correct this statement before it gets out of control.

Winston, no you are incorrect. Taiwanese spouses with no Greencard and no US citizenship DO NOT have to report their accounts to the IRS. Only their US spouses have to do this on a form called FBAR. This is my understanding up until now. The IRS may ask for proof of where money is coming from should you report in an audit that you received money from your spouse, and I know a lot of people who are unhappy about that, and some downright refuse, in which cases generally the IRS will feel it is taxable and you are hiding something.

There is nothing in the article you linked to that says that either… The only thing that the article says is that if the Taiwanese spouse has signature authority over an account they also have to file an FBAR, this part I do not know is true or not, that has to be checked carefully. I do not trust this article for that part. However, if the US citizen spouse has signature authority over the account, but never touched it, they HAVE to report it on an FBAR if the total amount they have in foreign accounts is over US$10,000. Joint accounts are a dangerous thing, because your local spouses money could be taken by the IRS if one failed to submit an FBAR. Again if you are not sure talk to a qualified CPA or tax attorney! (Certain non-resident aliens is a very vague statement, so it all depends.) Making a general statement like that, that all must do it is not in the best interest of those reading this thread.

For the rest of you, I will reply later. There is a new OVDP program now available, and it may get some people off the hook, but given the IRS’ history I would be weary about it. The new penalties also have increased from 27.5 to 50% for non-compliance. Some articles for you:

New offshore disclosure program: forbes.com/sites/robertwood/ … n=20140618

Penalties raised: forbes.com/sites/robertwood/ … r-changes/

That’s right, Yanks, if your Taiwanese wife or husband has assets totaling more than $10,000 and hasn’t reported them to the International Revenue Service she or he is a felon inder U. S. law now too.[/quote]

Been off here for a week too long it seems, but I had to jump in and correct this statement before it gets out of control.

Winston, no you are incorrect. Taiwanese spouses with no Greencard and no US citizenship DO NOT have to report their accounts to the IRS. Only their US spouses have to do this on a form called FBAR. This is my understanding up until now. . . [/quote]

“Anyone with ‘signatory authority’ over” a jointly held account and “certain nonresident aliens” almost certainly adds up to Taiwanese spouses being in violation of U.S. law - in light of the fact that the author is an attorney. Would a Taiwanese spouse require a taxpayer identification number to file his or her own FBAR? That’s the sort of draconian chatter I’ve been hearing from poor saps in a position to know.

The whole thing is one big CF, and the information online varies every place you look. Of course the IRS is not clear about it because they love collecting penalties from those who are not compliant. I wish I could answer your question in more detail and give you a better answer. But you are right, some Taiwanese who are not a US person may be subject to US law, but it is not clear…