if they can speak that language.
Ibksig, I said if they can speak the language. What does this have to do with obligation? The point is that the polite thing is to reply to someone in the language that they are speaking, if one can speak the language. Of course if you can’t you can’t.
Well I think one of the issues is that two distinct scenarios have been combined here. The first scenario being ordering at a restaurant or dealing with a sales staff and the other being having someone only respond to you in English when you speak Chinese with them in everyday conversation. To me those are two very different situations which is why I think we have confusion.
In a business environment the point is to get the necessary information across as quickly as possible in whatever language. Unfortunately bosses will sometimes make their staff speak English with foreign customers as a status for the Taiwanese sitting nearby, even when the customer can speak perfect Chinese. That I find really annoying because it results in some poor waitress running and hiding because her English isn’t all that good when I could order in Chinese without any problems. So on that point I agree that it’s an unnecessarily annoying situation.
If you want to use Chinese to have a conversation, or practice your Chinese, then why is it so annoying when they want to practice their English? I get your point about having a decent conversation until someone buts in to switch to English and how annoying it is. I see it as them wanting to practice their English just as you want to practice your Chinese. The fact is that the number of Mandarin speakers here greatly outnumber the number of English speakers. You as a native English speaker, whether you like it or not, offer them a chance to practice. You also want to speak Mandarin but can find hundreds of people who speak Mandarin whereas there are a few tens of thousands that speak English fluently.
[quote=“steelersman”]
if they can speak that language.
Lbksig, I said if they can speak the language. What does this have to do with obligation? The point is that the polite thing is to reply to someone in the language that they are speaking, if one can speak the language. Of course if you can’t you can’t.[/quote]
I read your responses rather quickly this morning, that’s where the obligation came from. Sorry about that. When rereading it I noticed that I glossed over important parts like “if they can speak the language”. The next line was where I drew the assumption from, that if someone speaks to you in Spanish you should reply in Spanish. It’s a hot button issue in CA because of the large number of Spanish speakers who can’t speak any English. I made the incorrect assumption that your point is you should speak whatever language someone speaks to you, not whatever language is the national language or de facto national language. Sorry about that.
As a side note, you might want to think about grouping your responses together instead of having two or three responses in succession. It makes it easier to read. Just a thought.
I want to quickly add to this discussion.
While I do understand that people can sometimes be adamant about English usage first, Not every single white person speaks English. Not all of us are native speakers of the English language.
To just assume that because you look White that you by default speak English, to me at least, is a little insulting. In America, if there are people of Asian descent, for the most part people don’t just assume that they are Chinese and only speak Chinese. At least from my experience living here in the U.S.
In Mexico it’s a bit different, I would have to say that a lot of Mexicans that look at Asians think they are Chinese, calling them “chinitas”. This is insulting and I always get defensive when my Mexican family and relatives say such things.
Anyhow, I have on various occasions said that I do not speak English, I only speak Spanish. But even then they continue on insistent English usage. Although it’s wrong to lie, I personally think that it’s also wrong to have such a one-sided view that all white people can speak English, even when they say they can’t.
If we don’t want to speak English that should be normal, it’s not an English speaking country. Plus there are so many assumptions in-built of ‘white face= must speak English’, it’s ridiculous! This whole practicing English thing in Taiwan is a crock of sh%t. If they want to speak English they should go to an English speaking country on a working holiday or for study or work.
[quote=“Rabidpie”]
While I do understand that people can sometimes be adamant about English usage first, Not every single white person speaks English. Not all of us are native speakers of the English language.
To just assume that because you look White that you by default speak English, to me at least, is a little insulting. In America, if there are people of Asian descent, for the most part people don’t just assume that they are Chinese and only speak Chinese. At least from my experience living here in the U.S.
In Mexico it’s a bit different, I would have to say that a lot of Mexicans that look at Asians think they are Chinese, calling them “chinitas”. This is insulting and I always get defensive when my Mexican family and relatives say such things.
Anyhow, I have on various occasions said that I do not speak English, I only speak Spanish. But even then they continue on insistent English usage. Although it’s wrong to lie, I personally think that it’s also wrong to have such a one-sided view that all white people can speak English, even when they say they can’t.[/quote]
Given that people who look “white” could be from: France, England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Poland, America, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, etc etc what language would you prefer be spoken? English is for better or worse the global language. If you have to take a guess at a language most people would be able to speak, or at least understand, then English is your starting point. Will that piss off some people? Yeah it does. You can’t make everyone happy and this is the best option short of only speaking in Mandarin. Then you’d have English teachers who can’t speak Mandarin getting pissed. So in short, someone’s going to be pissed if you don’t offer their language.
When was the last time you starting a conversation in Mandarin when meeting a white person for the first time?
95% of the white people who say they don’t speak English continue to indicate by their general reactions that they do understand English. They don’t start rattling away in a third language because they don’t speak another language. Nor do they speak Chinese very well and that becomes abundantly clear when they try. It is fucked up all around.
If people approached each other with a bit of sensitivity, feeling each other out for what language they speak, what language they want to speak (or if they want to speak at all) and what language they “can” speak there would be alot less hassle.
The rude behaviour comes from all sides. We’ve all had the experience I imagine of being side swiped by somebody launching into a debate before they even made eye contact. I’ve literally had people talk, and loudly, straight in my ear before I even knew they were there! People like that won’t get a peep of English out of me. Nor will the people who send their kinds round to “practice”. I just say, “dui bu qi wo shi yingwen laoshi. Jiang ying wen hao lei. Jintian wo yao xiuxi yixia” and that is about it usually.
If I’m in the store and somebody is pushing English I give them one, maybe two tries before I start translating. This gets them speaking Chinese again and frequently so fast that “I” can’t understand so I just slow the fuck down, take a deep breath, admit it is a difficult situation for everyone, look them right in eye and start in on the pantomime and speak whichever language appears to be working.
In most situations I don’t really feel confident that my Chinese is better than their English, but I am reasonably confident that my Chinese is at least as good as alot of the people who are complaining on this thread.
Btw, the title of this thread was meant to be ironic yes? It certainly captures the heart of the situation.
[quote=“bob”]
95% of the white people who say they don’t speak English continue to indicate by their general reactions that they do understand English. They don’t start rattling away in a third language because they don’t speak another language. Nor do they speak Chinese very well and that becomes abundantly clear when they try. It is fucked up all around.[/quote]
Probably true
[quote=“bob”]
The rude behaviour comes from all sides. [/quote]
A reasonable conclusion. You are right, it comes from both us visitors and the natives themselves.
[quote=“bob”]
Btw, the title of this thread was meant to be ironic yes? It certainly captures the heart of the situation.[/quote]
Yes, it is ironic.
Oh well, It doesn’t matter to me that much anymore. For the most part, a lot of people are happy to use Chinese or Taiwanese to express their ideas. The use of another language when unnecessary is almost like an act of exclusion. If you are going to a nice restaurant with Taiwanese friends/gf/whatever, then speaking Chinese not only makes you stand out in your group, but the group you are with may also feel somewhat excluded from the conversation (assuming their English levels are not the best).
Of course, those things are minor and frankly they don’t really matter to me much anymore. I created this thread a while ago and I’m surprised it came back 
I have also seen a negative correlation between level of Chinese skill and amount of English spoken to, at least from my experience. That’s probably the key.
I do agree that sometimes English is a status symbol in Taipei. Sometimes people are not speaking English for practice but because they think they should.
Which brings me to one of my pet peeves – local people who suddenly start speaking in English (even if they only know a couple words) to their local kid or spouse when they catch sight of me, in order to show off.
[quote=“Rabidpie”] [quote=“bob”]
Btw, the title of this thread was meant to be ironic yes? It certainly captures the heart of the situation.[/quote]
Yes, it is ironic.
[/quote]
It’s not just ironic then, it’s brilliant. 
What, btw again, is a rabidpie? It’s not what I think it is, izit?
It’s common practice for Taipei business people to mix English and Chinese when they talk to each other, as a kind of one-man-upship (how do you spell that anyway). It tends to increase in proximity to a white skinned foreigner. The intensity further increases when the manager or boss appears, in an effort to ‘show off their English skills’. The fact is that English is rated as a prequisite for a lot of trading or financial jobs here. To get the coveted job in the WaiShang you need good English but it’s useless without the almost obligatory 1 year study stint overseas (this will MAGICALLY make you understand everything about foreigners from all over the world and have great English!). BTW , the reason why Taiwanese want to join ‘WaiShang’ or foreign companies is not because of the good pay (it is not any higher really) but the working conditions are well known to be better than local companies i.e. vacation time, less overtime, regulated promotion and twice year bonus system (Japanese co.).
However these days it’s not just English, they are asking for a second foreign language such as Japanese or Spanish or Russian for many positions. Taipei is a VERY competitive city, everybody is constantly looking out for themselves and most managers are afraid of anybody talented coming along and taking their position from them as the economy has not been good for many years.
I cannot speak for everyone but unless I need that persons service, when they speak English I often reply: 對不起, 我聽不懂你的中文. After that I don’t say anything unless they speak Mandarin to me. I doubt that most people are that stupid that they would reply back to what the person said in English in Chinese.
I was commenting on the ol’ “I don’t speak English gambit used to force them to use Chinese on you” routine. The people who do it (I “did” it) understand what they hear (very difficult to hide that) and they don’t actually speak another language (difficult to fake that). Nor do they actually speak Chinese very well (absolutely impossible to hide that). The resultant mess is a page straight out of the “how to be a retard in three languages simultaneously” manual.
Many Taiwanese believe a high level of English translates to being educated. Then you have face and all that bullshit so I guess if you’re not confused you don’t know what’s going on here.
I suggest just to pick and choose when to speak Chinese. Cab drivers, local restaurants “regular folk” will be more than happy to speak Chinese with you. I wouldn’t waste your time trying to speak to the Asian princesses or the Taiwanese businessman.
Not necessarily. Anyone have any statistics on how many foreigners here are from other countries. Some foreigners are from other countries and do speak a third language. Furthermore some native English speakers can speak Spanish, French, etc.
Yes! I’ve seen that happen!
They might be able to glean that information from the fact that I read and understood the specials menu and ordered my meal in Chinese.
[quote=“Rabidpie”]I want to quickly add to this discussion.
While I do understand that people can sometimes be adamant about English usage first, Not every single white person speaks English. Not all of us are native speakers of the English language.
To just assume that because you look White that you by default speak English, to me at least, is a little insulting. In America, if there are people of Asian descent, for the most part people don’t just assume that they are Chinese and only speak Chinese. At least from my experience living here in the U.S.
.[/quote]
Actually, I think this is exactly what happens. Many " Westerners" cannot tell the difference between different Asian races and will in fact group them all together as Chinese or Japanese. If they’re being polite of course.
As an example, in Australia, I’ve had people try to talk to my wife in Mandarin and Japanese. Her parents are from Hong kong so she speaks Cantonese. These people are mostly just using a rare oppurtunity to try out there language skills.