What do you think of Tsai's Go South policy?

The thing about ractopamine is: The public cares a lot. Are they right to? Probably not. But the government should be communicating with them rather than largely ignoring their protests and trying to forge ahead anyway. I don’ think any of the Ma administration’s policies have been particularly abhorrent, but where he really failed was not trying to win voters over to his side before pushing some controversial policies. He seems to believe that when it comes to executing policy, might makes right.

As to the policy (go south) itself, it’s already something the Ma Administration is already doing.

Is it? :loco:

Is it? :loco:[/quote]

taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003549485

Co-developing island in Indonesia.

thejakartapost.com/news/2015 … nesia.html

Talked with Indonesia about moving some of Taiwan’s production base to Indonesia.

roc-taiwan.org/DE/FRA/ct.asp … agesize=15

Taiwan will likely get visa free travel to Indonesia next year.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi … 831219.cms

Setting up an industrial park in Ahmedabad, India. They had set up one in Sanand in 2011.

taipeitimes.com/News/biz/arc … 2003627651

Getting Myanmar to lower their tariffs on fabrics.

chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/nati … -opens.htm

Myanmar Trade Office in Taipei.

manilatimes.net/philippines- … ing/59245/

Trade ties with the Philippines were improving in 2013 (until the incident) but it’s back on track.

focustaiwan.tw/news/aipl/201507010025.aspx

Online visa travel system from Taiwan to Philippines which is practically visa free travel.

The information is out there if you care to research.

cambodiadaily.com/archives/ … wan-64494/

A Taipei Trade Office was “quashed” by Hun Sen. Guy is an ass when it comes to “One China” policy. He hates money unless it’s going straight into his pocket.

todayszaman.com/columnist/ab … 49195.html

And also, Turkey. But they’re Mideast.

LTH was a statesman who had the foresight and wisdom to advocate the South Bound plan. Unfortunately in 2000 (remember WTO?) the pressure of US’ China-lovers was overwhelming, and CSB also caved in to the Chinese people on Taiwan to appear to be reconciliatory. Now, 10, 15 years of investment in China has yielded a negative return for not only US but also Taiwan. Look what misery these two countries find themselves in.

I have a few friends who made tones of money in SEA, and they started early. Had the chosen to invest in China they’ve been bled dry by the thugs. I also personally know a few who went bankrupt in the 2000s because of the incessant greed of corrupt Chinese officials, defaulting on payment, demanding bribes, screwing people with BS/ad-hoc so-called laws that are not, and a judicial system that is not.

高為邦 argues that actually, lawlessness is intentionally built-in as their national strategy to trap and steal from Taiwanese. His extensive research is based on his and others’ real accounts. His conclusion matches that of John Garnaut of Australia , who describes China actually is a Mafia State.

Let’s face it, no businessmen would promote their failure.

focustaiwan.tw/news/aipl/201509230014.aspx

And, of course, TIFA talks with the US has resumed.

[quote=“sofun”]
I have a few friends who made tones of money in SEA, and they started early. Had the chosen to invest in China they’ve been bled dry by the thugs. I also personally know a few who went bankrupt in the 2000s because of the incessant greed of corrupt Chinese officials, defaulting on payment, demanding bribes, screwing people with BS/ad-hoc so-called laws that are not, and a judicial system that is not.
[/quote]Except that the rule of law is pretty much just as bad in South East Asia as in China.

[quote=“Gain”][quote=“Zla’od”]But what do single women know about Going South?

(Sorry Hokwongwei!)[/quote]
:roflmao:[/quote]

Probably more than married people. :laughing: :laughing:

Sorry Dirt, but I can’t agree with you on this one…

[quote=“Dirt”]
Ma wants to trade more with the US. It’s the DPP that keeps preventing that from happening by scaring the electorate over ractopamine. You and I have been eating that stuff for most of our lives.[/quote]

First off, I think the DPP dropped this issue after a couple of weeks of opposition. I’m not a fan of DPP histrionics, but in this case the histrionics were justified.

I’ll take issue with “most of our lives” - it’s only true if you’re about 15 years old. Though prior to ractopamine, other drugs (like growth hormones) have been fed to US farm animals, and also negatively affect human health. The FDA ruled that ractopamine was safe and approved it for pigs in 1999, for cattle in 2003 and turkeys in 2008. The tests were not done by the FDA, but rather by the manufacturer. Elanco tested animals - mice, rats, monkeys and dogs - to judge how much ractopamine could be safely consumed. Only one human study was used in the safety assessment by Elanco, and among the six healthy young men who participated, one was removed because his heart began racing and pounding abnormally.

Americans are indeed less healthy. Like growth hormones, the main thing that ractopamine does to farm animals is make them gain weight. It’s been six years since my last visit to the USA, but my recollection of that journey is that the country has a serious obesity problem. The USA of my youth (1970s) was a far thinner and healthier country, and I can back that up with statistics:


Source: stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/

I have noticed an increase in obesity in Taiwan in the past three years, though I don’t have handy statistics to prove it. Do note that Taiwanese eat a lot less beef than Americans, and so far the drug isn’t in Taiwanese pork and poultry (but the USA is trying to change that so that American pork and chicken can be imported).

Aside from weight gain, the other thing that ractopamine does to animals is cause anger and aggression (note that growth hormones don’t do that). When you feed ractopamine to cows and pigs, they start fighting and become difficult to manage by their human handlers. With all the US incidents of road rage, school shootings and cops beating the shit out of people at traffic stops, I can’t help but wonder what part ractopamine played in their behavior. Since ractopamine-tainted beef has been imported into Taiwan, we’ve had three high-profile cases of senseless murder and attempted murder that make me suspicious: the two knife attacks in the Taipei MRT, and the kid whose throat was slit in a school bathroom. I’ve personally had to fend off two serious road rage incidents in the past year by driving to a police station. Obviously, I cannot prove a direct cause-and-effect in any of these incidents.

Pigs are only fed ractopamine for 35 days before being slaughtered, because the negative health effects are so severe that longer use leads to lameness and death. But even in that short time span, the negative health effects are apparent. Humans eat ractopamine for much longer than 35 days (prior to slaughter?), though of course at much lower concentrations than what is fed to farm animals. The effect of long-term consumption of ractopamine in either farm animals or humans has never been studied.

Of the 195 countries in the world today, 160 of them ban ractopamine, despite heavy pressure from the USA to allow it. Not every country capitulates to US pressure as easily as Taiwan.

I agree with you there. I’m pro-nuclear power - I make no secret of that. If the DPP gains power in 2016, Tsai Ing-wen is going to have to find a way to disown her party’s anti-nuke histrionics. Otherwise, she’ll have to preside over shutting down the nukes and sharply increase coal-burning. The solar-wind “solution” is just DPP bullshit designed to win elections.

You’d be hard-pressed to link ractopamine to obesity in America. Our problem is one of lifestyle and eating habits, more than the quality of the actual meat. There’s a reason the fatties are located across the Midwest and South, while the two coasts are largely pretty fit.

While many studies have shown ractopamine has a negligible affect on people eating the meat, the answer is simple: Let the market decide. If TWese people are worried, they won’t buy it. They’ll do what they did to Ting Hsin and boycott. There’s little reason to believe it poses a human health hazard, so I say let it in, and the people will make informed decisions if they want it or not.

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]You’d be hard-pressed to link ractopamine to obesity in America. Our problem is one of lifestyle and eating habits, more than the quality of the actual meat. There’s a reason the fatties are located across the Midwest and South, while the two coasts are largely pretty fit.
[/quote]

Did you bother clicking on the link? Here it is again:

stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/

It’s an interactive graph and map for all 50 states. The graphic I showed was for Oregon (on the west coast, last time I checked). It shows an obesity rate of 27.9% for year 2014, but it was only 11.2% in 1990, an increase of 2.5 times in 24 years! In California (also on the west coast) the 2014 obesity rate is 24.7%, while in 1990 it was 9.9%. Highest rate of obesity is in Arkansas, which in 2014 was 35.9% - that is higher than California, but not tremendously higher. In all 50 states, obesity rates have doubled or nearly tripled since 1990. We don’t have reliable figures going back to the 1970s, but my recollection of those days is that obesity was a rare condition back then, much as it is in Taiwan presently. Back in those days we had ice cream, cookies and soda pop - junk food is not a new invention.

[quote]While many studies have shown ractopamine has a negligible affect on people eating the meat[/quote]…

Many studies? There has been just one conducted on humans, involving just six persons, one of whom had to drop out after a few weeks because he developed a heart condition. Even that study was brief. Studies of farm animals fed ractopamine have showed DEVASTATING effects on their health - heart conditions, rapid weight gain, lameness, aggressive behavior. And this happens after just one month of taking the drug.

You ever found a label on US beef saying “contains ractopamine”? When Ma gave his approval for use of imported US beef, it was claimed that it would be labeled - and that was promptly dropped.

I added bold to “informed decisions.” I submit that the public is not informed at all, either in Taiwan or the USA. The beef industry depends on keeping the public ignorant. Show the public some videos of what happens to farm animals after being fed food additives and then they’ll be able to make informed decisions. The DPP went apeshit in the last elections over used salad oil, trying to convince the Taiwanese public that Ma was poisoning them - why did they drop the ball on ractopamine? Could it be that Tsai Ing-wen isn’t willing to risk insulting US food industry lobbyists?

As for a boycott, I’m doing just that. I haven’t eaten any beef since 2012. If you care about your health, I suggest you do the same.

P.S. One of things we’ve been able to learn from Wikileaks about the top-secret TPP is that it would require non-labeling of food additives (like ractopamine) and GMO crops. Just another example of the “informed decisions” that free-market fans love.

From what I read the US has made Taiwan’s acceptance of American ractopamine beef a condition for more TPP talks. Letting the market decide is a naive idea, sorry. Will people go down to the local biandang shop and hot pot restaurant and ask if their beef contains ractopamine? As of 2013 Ractopamine use in food animals has been banned in over 160 countries, including the EU, China and Russia. Ractopamine is just part of the bigger picture of the US trying to push its less regulated, chemically enhanced food to other markets. There is a big dispute going on in Europe because they refuse US chlorine bathed chickens.

Well, I’ll retract my west coast comment, though the fact remains you see very few hefty people in big cities in California at the very least. However you haven’t given any indication that obesity is linked to ractopamine.

I researched the topic about five years ago but haven’t revisited since. Have their been any studies proving it’s bad for human health?

Only a single study was ever done on (six) humans, and the results were scary enough that it was never repeated. A bunch of animal studies all show devastating effects on health.

Back in 2012 when the USA was strong-arming Taiwan to accept ractopamine tainted beef, the USA was also pushing the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) and the World Health Organization (WHO) to adopt watered down standards to the Codex Alimentarius Commission which sets world standards for safe levels of drugs in food. As I recall, the USA got it’s way by about two votes, after months of threats and bribes. But most nations that supported the US position in the UN still refused to accept ractopamine in their own countries.

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Well, I’ll retract my west coast comment, though the fact remains you see very few hefty people in big cities in California at the very least. However you haven’t given any indication that obesity is linked to ractopamine.

I researched the topic about five years ago but haven’t revisited since. Have their been any studies proving it’s bad for human health?[/quote]

Different people react to poisonous additives differently. There are people who smoke a pack everyday and still live to the age of 90. Their genes are just more resilient than most people. There are those who are genetically obese. Some of their more serious health problems may be controlled without the influence of ractopamine.

A meaningful study would probably take decades with hundreds of animals/people. I’ve looked at the US and Canadian FDA cited ractopamine studies, and those animal studies at most lasted 2 years.

Ractopamine is a beta agonist drug, and other beta agonist drugs (like those for controlling asthma) have been proven to cause uncontrollable weight gain, it’s listed as a side-effect.

I wonder why these drugs can just enter the market and people are forced to subject to these additives without being offered a choice and wait for decades for studies to prove they are harmful to people, instead of the other way around, where studies are carried on for decades and enters the market when they are proven to be safe.

The EU also bans ractopamine, why doesn’t the US shove ractopamine down Europe’s throats… After seeing some of the facts about mass intensive livestock farms revealed by John Oliver on Last Week Tonight, I have completely lost faith in the US livestock/poultry businesses… At least I was a full vegetarian back then… Not that I have any faith in Taiwan’s intensive animal farming businesses either.

By the way, when you live on the coasts, people insisting on eating healthy is more widely accepted. When you live in places like El Paso, and you say you don’t eat certain food because of health concerns, you get called a pussy. Granted that was my high school experience, but I’m pretty sure many of those people’s minds about food health don’t change all that much after high school.

That’s exactly my point. When you have an entire steak + mashed potatoes + dinner rolls + bottomless coke for dinner and consider that normal, the cause of your obesity is probably not ractopamine.

That’s exactly my point. When you have an entire steak + mashed potatoes + dinner rolls + bottomless coke for dinner and consider that normal, the cause of your obesity is probably not ractopamine.[/quote]

That’s not a good comparison basis. What you need is the two groups of people who eat an entire steak + mashed potatoes + dinner rolls + bottomless coke for dinner, and only have ractopamine resent in one group’s steaks.

Many people who eat healthy in California still eat whole steaks for dinner, they just have organic steaks without the additives. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a meat sections at Wholefoods.

[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“Hokwongwei”]

The EU also bans ractopamine, why doesn’t the US shove ractopamine down Europe’s throats… [/quote][/quote]

“US agribusinesses say they “will continue to push negotiators to have the EU ban on ractopamine fed pork lifted under TTIP”. Meanwhile, the United States government has targeted this ban as a barrier to trade that “appear[s] to lack scientific justification [and] pose[s] a major impediment to U.S. pork exports to the EU.” As a result the US government has vowed to push the EU to implement weaker international standards that would allow certain levels of ractopamine-laced meat. In its TTIP position, the EU also supports moving towards adopting these weaker standards.”

foeeurope.org/served-by-ttip