So…If I refer to black people as nigers inside my head, but I never actually come out and call them nigers, that DOESN’T make me a racist???[/quote]
Not in my book. Who gives a shit about what goes on in your head if you behave like a decent human being to people of all colors? Also, who would ever know and be influenced by it? For all I care, the cat in Schrodinger’s box might be the worst racist ever, but if when the box is open I find a well-adjusted, respectful kitty, I still think it does not matter.[/quote]
Thats interesting. You only care about perception. If a person is racist deep in his core, but the person gives the perception that he is not, then you are fine with it.
So then the question still stands. Is the person no longer a racist just because he doesn’t behave like one on the outside? So based on your response, am I wrong to say that you are fine with racist people, as long as they arent racist when you are around? Or maybe you mean you never knew someone was racist to begin with, and thats why you are okay with the person. But that still doesnt answer the question. If the cat in Schrodinger’s box is the worst racist ever, but all you see is a well-adjusted, respectable kitty, that still doesn’t change the fact that the cat is the worst racist ever. I’m a little confused here.
So…If I refer to black people as nigers inside my head, but I never actually come out and call them nigers, that DOESN’T make me a racist???[/quote]
Not in my book. Who gives a shit about what goes on in your head if you behave like a decent human being to people of all colors? Also, who would ever know and be influenced by it? For all I care, the cat in Schrodinger’s box might be the worst racist ever, but if when the box is open I find a well-adjusted, respectful kitty, I still think it does not matter.[/quote]
Thats interesting. You only care about perception. If a person is racist deep in his core, but the person gives the perception that he is not, then you are fine with it.
So then the question still stands. Is the person no longer a racist just because he doesn’t behave like one on the outside? So based on your response, am I wrong to say that you are fine with racist people, as long as they arent racist when you are around? Or maybe you mean you never knew someone was racist to begin with, and thats why you are okay with the person. But that still doesnt answer the question. If the cat in Schrodinger’s box is the worst racist ever, but all you see is a well-adjusted, respectable kitty, that still doesn’t change the fact that the cat is the worst racist ever. I’m a little confused here.[/quote]
That’s not my point and I am 100% sure you know that. You either derive your fun from twisting people statements or are unable to grasp fine points. Just like it happened in other threads, I invite you to go back and read again, carefully.
I never once distinguished between “appearance” and “deep down”. Those are your labels, which are totally meaningless in my opinion. What I said is that someone, anyone, never behaves negatively towards someone else based on the second person’s race or ethnicity, they’re not racist in my book. EVERYONE has gut-level reactions to different people, places and cultures. Civilized people feel such base urges and feelings and supersede them thanks to their ethics and intelligence. Racists don’t. I don’t care at all what they might think, what their fears and worries might be when it comes to other ethnicities and what the stereotypes they grew up with might be: as long as they exercise their rationality and morality in such a way as to live harmoniously with other, regardless of their ethnic or geographic origin, I am fine. This does not mean “when I am not around”. It means always, throughout their lives. This has nothing to do with “perception”: is a value judgement on practical, factual actions and behaviors towards other people.
The question that you keep asking is akin to “If someone is a racist a forest and no one else is around, are they still racist?”. My answer is that it does not matter. At all. It’s just like asking “if I watch tv in my underwear at home while alone, is this offensive to my fellow men?”. It just does not matter, unless you compulsively need to label something that has no bearing on the outside world.
So…If I refer to black people as nigers inside my head, but I never actually come out and call them nigers, that DOESN’T make me a racist???[/quote]
Not in my book. Who gives a shit about what goes on in your head if you behave like a decent human being to people of all colors? Also, who would ever know and be influenced by it? For all I care, the cat in Schrodinger’s box might be the worst racist ever, but if when the box is open I find a well-adjusted, respectful kitty, I still think it does not matter (i.e. it is irrelevant and I don’t even know why you’re fixating so much on it).[/quote]
I’d argue that thoughts, particularly persistent thoughts, influence your actions whether you know it or not, especially if you’re put into a position where the thoughts are relevant. So if kitty is a racist against white people, and a group of Asians open the box, you’ll get a well-adjusted, respectful kitty. But if there’s one adoga in that group, he’s getting shredded or at least cold-shouldered.
That’s why I try to keep an eye on my thoughts- question them, particularly if they might lead to shitty actions in mixed company.
Again, I need to clarify that I was referring to personal thoughts and feelings. Of course if someone expresses xenophobic ideas, even without acting on them, I would consider that person a racist. In the same way, I would call racist whoever is pushed by personal feelings (e.g. Persistent fear or worry about being robbed by black people) to act negatively against someone else.
So…If I refer to black people as nigers inside my head, but I never actually come out and call them nigers, that DOESN’T make me a racist???[/quote]
Not in my book. Who gives a shit about what goes on in your head if you behave like a decent human being to people of all colors? Also, who would ever know and be influenced by it? For all I care, the cat in Schrodinger’s box might be the worst racist ever, but if when the box is open I find a well-adjusted, respectful kitty, I still think it does not matter.[/quote]
Thats interesting. You only care about perception. If a person is racist deep in his core, but the person gives the perception that he is not, then you are fine with it.
So then the question still stands. Is the person no longer a racist just because he doesn’t behave like one on the outside? So based on your response, am I wrong to say that you are fine with racist people, as long as they arent racist when you are around? Or maybe you mean you never knew someone was racist to begin with, and thats why you are okay with the person. But that still doesnt answer the question. If the cat in Schrodinger’s box is the worst racist ever, but all you see is a well-adjusted, respectable kitty, that still doesn’t change the fact that the cat is the worst racist ever. I’m a little confused here.[/quote]
That’s not my point and I am 100% sure you know that. You either derive your fun from twisting people statements or are unable to grasp fine points. Just like it happened in other threads, I invite you to go back and read again, carefully.
I never once distinguished between “appearance” and “deep down”. Those are your labels, which are totally meaningless in my opinion. What I said is that someone, anyone, never behaves negatively towards someone else based on the second person’s race or ethnicity, they’re not racist in my book. EVERYONE has gut-level reactions to different people, places and cultures. Civilized people feel such base urges and feelings and supersede them thanks to their ethics and intelligence. Racists don’t. I don’t care at all what they might think, what their fears and worries might be when it comes to other ethnicities and what the stereotypes they grew up with might be: as long as they exercise their rationality and morality in such a way as to live harmoniously with other, regardless of their ethnic or geographic origin, I am fine. This does not mean “when I am not around”. It means always, throughout their lives. This has nothing to do with “perception”: is a value judgement on practical, factual actions and behaviors towards other people.
The question that you keep asking is akin to “If someone is a racist a forest and no one else is around, are they still racist?”. My answer is that it does not matter. At all. It’s just like asking “if I watch tv in my underwear at home while alone, is this offensive to my fellow men?”. It just does not matter, unless you compulsively need to label something that has no bearing on the outside world.[/quote]
What do you mean by “it does not matter”? And your example is much better. If someone is a racist in the middle of the forest with no one around, I honestly believe that he is still racist. The bottom line is, the person is STILL a racist regardless of whether or not he is alone or if there are a hundred people around him. Would you guys be on my case if I never expressed my views? I’m assuming you wouldn’t because you wouldn’t know my feelings towards tradition, gays, child abuse…etc. Right? No I’m not trying to twist your words into saying something you are not. But I’m having a really hard time comprehending this.
But does an individual necessarily have to ACT racist to be a racist?
I can have anti-black, mexican, whatever race posters and I dunno, whatever “I HATE NIGERS painted on my walls, but then when I walk outside and I see a black guy I’ll say “whatsup bro” with a big ass smile on my face. But inside I’m saying "Fuck you Niger!”
…Am I not a racist? Or am I just a racist in the privacy of my own home, my thoughts and whatever happens in the privacy of my home, the forest doesn’t count?
That’s open and graphically violent enough to be racist. Also, is an action that has no usefulness if not disparaging a race of people as opposed to, e.g., rolling the window up 'cause you are afraid you might get mugged. In fact, you had to go out of your way and possibly spend money. Clearly racist. Also, someone might see your walls (what if you feel sick and a black paramedic arrives?) and be deeply offended. Again, surely racist.
Cmon, really? Its graphically violent enough to be racist? Spending money? Someone might see my walls?
What would qualify as not being graphically violent enough?
But…okay, let me change that up.
What if whenever I see a black man on the television while I’m watching my HBO or Cinemax and I see Denzel up there, I start spouting off about nig*ers and start having racist anti-black thoughts about all the violent things I would do if there was a black man sitting next to me right now. No painting on my walls or anything of that nature.
Am I not still a racist if I harbor the same exact thoughts when Im dapping a brotha’s fist saying whatsup with a big ol smile on my face as I do in the comfort and privacy of my home???
This is only an example. I have nothing against blacks, just in case people start thinking I’m some kind of racist and I have a thing against blacks.
Man, it is exhausting to discuss with you. You’re pairing innocent stereotyping with violent (though private) outbursts at the sight of a black man. I would suggest that if your feelings about a person of color are what you describe, you might be psycotic and in need of medical attention rather than a racist.
I get that you enjoy discussing for the sake of discussing, but now you’re getting ridicoulous.
[“you” being the hypothetical person you were referring to before]
[quote=“Novaspes”]Man, it is exhausting to discuss with you. You’re pairing innocent stereotyping with violent (though private) outbursts at the sight of a black man. I would suggest that if your feelings about a person of color are what you describe, you might be psycotic and in need of medical attention rather than a racist.
I get that you enjoy discussing for the sake of discussing, but now you’re getting ridicoulous.[/quote]
What I’m trying to get at is that stereotyping is stereotyping regardless of whether or not it is “graphically violent” or not.
What just because I don’t have posters everywhere and a I HATE NIG*ERS painted on my wall, I’m no longer a racist?
I’m having a hard time understanding this.
In my book if a person harbors racist feelings within, the person is a racist.
But according to you, the person is only a racist if the person acts on his/her feelings??? What??
[quote=“Novaspes”]Man, it is exhausting to discuss with you. You’re pairing innocent stereotyping with violent (though private) outbursts at the sight of a black man. I would suggest that if your feelings about a person of color are what you describe, you might be psycotic and in need of medical attention rather than a racist.
I get that you enjoy discussing for the sake of discussing, but now you’re getting ridicoulous.[/quote]
You’re missing the point…
That was just an example. I can paint a different picture for you if you think it would be more clear.
If a person loves dogs and has 1038718903712 dogs at home, but when he goes out into the public, he tells everyone he loves cats and does not like dogs, is the person still not a dog lover? Maybe there is a better example but I tried to find one as not graphic or violent. Just because the person perceives to be a cat lover and indifferent towards dogs does not mean that deep down inside, he is still a dog lover.
How is your example relevant and a good instatiation of someone having an idea but not acting upon it? If I were to harken your examplw back to the race issue, I would say “what about someone who has ~10^7 slaughtered Asian people at home, but on the street says that he’s not a racist (nor a psycho)?”. Do you see the fault in these examples? Come on!
But according to you, the person is only a racist if the person acts on his/her feelings??? What??[/quote]
Because you do not control most of your feelings. Prejudice, worry, fear of people that are different from you and that might be painted as “dangerous” or “criminal” by the media influences you, whether you want it or not. The way you were brought up and how multicultural your environment was determines how well you fare in a multicultural/multiracial society. These are all things that can hit you on a gut level and make you uneasy, defensive or even angry when faced with diversity. As a rational, hopefully well-adjusted and educated human being, you rationalized such feelings, you reel them in and act according to your ethics rather than your guts. If you don’t and you conduct your life based on stereotypes ingrained in your brain or on fears based on generalizations, you’re a racist. Is that simple.
Also, stereotyping is inevitable. It’s part of the way we humans categorize things. It’s how far you carry it and how it influences your actions and decisions in life that make you a prejudist or not.
It’s the same for homosexuality: seeing two men kissing and feeling that it is icky and possibly something you would prefer not to see does not make you a homophobe. Asking them to stop or crying out that it is a disgrace does. You can also apply it to religion: wishing that people would find Christ and feeling that a non-believer is wrong does not make you a bigot. Telling them what they ought to do or saying that their lack of belief makes them amoral monsters does.
“Right” and “wrong” are projections with no objective reality. There is every reason to believe “racism” (i.e., group identity, identity markers, suspicion of outsiders, preference for kin group, etc.) to be a evolutionarily beneficial or even necessary to survival.
“Right” and “wrong” are projections with no objective reality. There is every reason to believe “racism” (i.e., group identity, identity markers, suspicion of outsiders, preference for kin group, etc.) to be a evolutionarily beneficial or even necessary to survival.[/quote]
I am likely taking this past were most want to go (ad nauseam), but I am still stuck looking for some definition of “how do we define race”? In order to be a racist you must have some bias with regard to some race (usually assumed to be a negative bias against that race). I have always believed it to be purely biological (physical) associated with Caucasian, Negroid, or Mogoloid references. Dr. Milker pointed out that it is commonly accepted and used in a cultural context, which I challenged, but after doing some searching, and reading several of those that have posted here, believe he has made a good point, maybe an evolving modern use of the word.
Just going to Wikipedia
If this definition is accepted, then ANY and EVERY “large and distinct” social group is a race. We are still left with some uncertainty on how many = LARGE, or how different you have to be to be DISTINCTIVE. Therefore anytime someone states a bias against any “large and distinct” social group (including religious) they are making racist statements.
So by this definition, Taiwanese are a race, Asians are a race, and any country (geograpicalIy distinct) is a race
So, you can keep calling everyone a racist (if you do not like what they said) and you will probably be right. I am going to go fill my deck with racist cards.
Some examples (I believe) of racist comments, if we accept this premise:
German women are the least attractive in Europe
I am Jewish and would never date a Gentile
I only date my own kind
If this definition is accepted, then ANY and EVERY “large and distinct” social group is a race.[/quote]
Yes, and pretty well any debate on Forumosa these days gets derailed by someone drawing the race card (but no reason to give up: i have my own corollary of Godwin’s law for that).
Wikipedia can be a great resource when it comes to verifiable geographic, scientific, or technical information, but when it comes to social issues you’d better have the saltbox and a spoon ready: there are just too many of us in the world (my guess: the majority of the human population) who don’t buy into the Euro-NA-centric view that is so prevalent in the English Wikipedia (on top of that, articles like that aren’t even backed by anything like a scientific consensus).
[quote=“Novaspes”]
Because you do not control most of your feelings. Prejudice, worry, fear of people that are different from you and that might be painted as “dangerous” or “criminal” by the media influences you, whether you want it or not. The way you were brought up and how multicultural your environment was determines how well you fare in a multicultural/multiracial society. These are all things that can hit you on a gut level and make you uneasy, defensive or even angry when faced with diversity. As a rational, hopefully well-adjusted and educated human being, you rationalized such feelings, you reel them in and act according to your ethics rather than your guts. If you don’t and you conduct your life based on stereotypes ingrained in your brain or on fears based on generalizations, you’re a racist. Is that simple.
Also, stereotyping is inevitable. It’s part of the way we humans categorize things. It’s how far you carry it and how it influences your actions and decisions in life that make you a prejudist or not.
It’s the same for homosexuality: seeing two men kissing and feeling that it is icky and possibly something you would prefer not to see does not make you a homophobe. Asking them to stop or crying out that it is a disgrace does. You can also apply it to religion: wishing that people would find Christ and feeling that a non-believer is wrong does not make you a bigot. Telling them what they ought to do or saying that their lack of belief makes them amoral monsters does.
Is it really that difficult to understand?[/quote]
Thats where we disagree. Your feelings, regardless of whether you act upon them, make a person who they are. I still say that if a person hates black people within, but never shows it, is still a racist. You may give off the impression that you don’t hate black people, but deep down, you do. and YES, it really is that difficult to understand. I know you guys probably feel like I get a rise out of disagreeing with everyone, but I am not disagreeing with you just for the sake of disagreeing with you. I REALLY don’t understand your point of view on this.
Are you saying non-racist people can harbor racist “feelings” and not be considered racist?
[quote=“Leftywang81”][quote=“Novaspes”]
Because you do not control most of your feelings. Prejudice, worry, fear of people that are different from you and that might be painted as “dangerous” or “criminal” by the media influences you, whether you want it or not. The way you were brought up and how multicultural your environment was determines how well you fare in a multicultural/multiracial society. These are all things that can hit you on a gut level and make you uneasy, defensive or even angry when faced with diversity. As a rational, hopefully well-adjusted and educated human being, you rationalized such feelings, you reel them in and act according to your ethics rather than your guts. If you don’t and you conduct your life based on stereotypes ingrained in your brain or on fears based on generalizations, you’re a racist. Is that simple.
Also, stereotyping is inevitable. It’s part of the way we humans categorize things. It’s how far you carry it and how it influences your actions and decisions in life that make you a prejudist or not.
It’s the same for homosexuality: seeing two men kissing and feeling that it is icky and possibly something you would prefer not to see does not make you a homophobe. Asking them to stop or crying out that it is a disgrace does. You can also apply it to religion: wishing that people would find Christ and feeling that a non-believer is wrong does not make you a bigot. Telling them what they ought to do or saying that their lack of belief makes them amoral monsters does.
Is it really that difficult to understand?[/quote]
Thats where we disagree. Your feelings, regardless of whether you act upon them, make a person who they are. I still say that if a person hates black people within, but never shows it, is still a racist. You may give off the impression that you don’t hate black people, but deep down, you do. and YES, it really is that difficult to understand. I know you guys probably feel like I get a rise out of disagreeing with everyone, but I am not disagreeing with you just for the sake of disagreeing with you. I REALLY don’t understand your point of view on this.
Are you saying non-racist people can harbor racist “feelings” and not be considered racist?[/quote]
I am saying that if my grandma, who was the least racist person I have ever met (which means even more for someone who was born in 1923) would go to the supermarket, met a bunch of [insert ethnicity uncommon/unknown for the area and about whom the media has recently been inflammatory] at the supermarket, feel uncomfortable and maybe zip her purse closed, I would not say that makes her a racist.
I believe that, by your definition, a vast majority of people could be called racist at least once in their life. Broadening the category too much empties the label of its meaning, I think.
[quote=“Novaspes”][quote=“Leftywang81”][quote=“Novaspes”]
Because you do not control most of your feelings. Prejudice, worry, fear of people that are different from you and that might be painted as “dangerous” or “criminal” by the media influences you, whether you want it or not. The way you were brought up and how multicultural your environment was determines how well you fare in a multicultural/multiracial society. These are all things that can hit you on a gut level and make you uneasy, defensive or even angry when faced with diversity. As a rational, hopefully well-adjusted and educated human being, you rationalized such feelings, you reel them in and act according to your ethics rather than your guts. If you don’t and you conduct your life based on stereotypes ingrained in your brain or on fears based on generalizations, you’re a racist. Is that simple.
Also, stereotyping is inevitable. It’s part of the way we humans categorize things. It’s how far you carry it and how it influences your actions and decisions in life that make you a prejudist or not.
It’s the same for homosexuality: seeing two men kissing and feeling that it is icky and possibly something you would prefer not to see does not make you a homophobe. Asking them to stop or crying out that it is a disgrace does. You can also apply it to religion: wishing that people would find Christ and feeling that a non-believer is wrong does not make you a bigot. Telling them what they ought to do or saying that their lack of belief makes them amoral monsters does.
Is it really that difficult to understand?[/quote]
Thats where we disagree. Your feelings, regardless of whether you act upon them, make a person who they are. I still say that if a person hates black people within, but never shows it, is still a racist. You may give off the impression that you don’t hate black people, but deep down, you do. and YES, it really is that difficult to understand. I know you guys probably feel like I get a rise out of disagreeing with everyone, but I am not disagreeing with you just for the sake of disagreeing with you. I REALLY don’t understand your point of view on this.
Are you saying non-racist people can harbor racist “feelings” and not be considered racist?[/quote]
I am saying that if my grandma, who was the least racist person I have ever met (which means even more for someone who was born in 1923) would go to the supermarket, met a bunch of [insert ethnicity uncommon/unknown for the area and about whom the media has recently been inflammatory] at the supermarket, feel uncomfortable and maybe zip her purse closed, I would not say that makes her a racist.
I believe that, by your definition, a vast majority of people could be called racist at least once in their life. Broadening the category too much empties the label of its meaning, I think.[/quote]
Understood. Thats the same thing as the example I brought up about my folks double checking to see if the door are locked when they drive through a “black” neighborhood like Compton. The point is “WHY” your grandma would feel the need to zip her purse when she is around XXXXX as opposed to being at a supermarket among her own people. This is stereotyping, is it not?